I wish people brought in editors more often

keii4ii 2017-09-07 16:19:50 UTC #38

I don't think those are basic at all. I would NOT trust just anyone with my baby, even if I knew them to be competent.

69Michi 2017-09-07 16:19:59 UTC #39

To an indie creator, editor isn't absolutely a requirement to be able to make a story/comic. Much like if you are a writer and want to tell a story, you can just write a book instead of forcing yourself to pick up an artist to draw your story in comic format.

Editors are nice to have and they can give you great pointers and catch the flaws that you didn't notice, but like I said when it comes down to the core of making comic for an indie creators, editors are some fancy being that majority cannot afford. Comic can be made by an entire team, but a lot of comic around the internet is a 1 man effort. You can't force them to get an editor if they cannot afford one. You are applying the professional perks on non-professional people and expect them to be in need of editors just as much as a professional creator would do. In theory, editors are good addition to have, but in reality, I don't think they are essential, much like proof readers and idea bouncers. (But that is just me and I know my comic still lacking in a lot of aspect that if I could have an editor, they would help out a lot!)

Beside, the main problem we were talking about was how creators on platform like Tapas don't seem to have editors. Simple answer, majority is indie creators who either lacking in funding or time to get an editor. It's not that people are looking down on an editors' job or anything. It took me almost a year to settle down with a proof reader/idea bouncer and I still struggle to give her my finished dialogs on time before my update schedule. She has work and life outside of helping me too and our schedules clash sometimes.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-07 16:23:32 UTC #40

the problem with that is this

artist are really protective of their "Babys" -_-

69Michi 2017-09-07 16:26:02 UTC #41

Beside tho a lot of artists are busy with their own work, personally I don't think I would even have time to participate in a study circle.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-07 16:27:30 UTC #42

that too :C (has uni all the time)

sarrowsmith10 2017-09-07 16:57:24 UTC #43

This is really the crux of the issue I think. A good editor is going to spend a decent amount of time proofing the comic. In industry, the editor is involved in every step of the process. From the lineart to the coloring, scripting, text, everything. I had a long conversation with the editor from Aspen Comics at a convention once. I don't think people realize just how involved editors are. They don't start by looking at finished pages, often when eyes see that part of the page, its too late or time consuming to go back and fix things. Editors look at the pencils before the inker even touches the page.

Just to clarify I think if an editor is missing in production, proof readers definitely help. Getting whatever help and critiz you can isn't going to hurt you any. But expecting someone to really do true editing work and having time for that in exchange for anything less than real payment seems unfair to the editor. Regular indie creators don't have the time to do this sort of work for another creator usually.

So I think most readers understand that webcomics are just going to be a hit or miss when it comes to quality just by the very nature of the work being a webcomic.

joe_galindez 2017-09-07 17:16:52 UTC #44

Not many parents hope to have dozens and dozens of babies and maybe sell a few to Hollywood. I get that your art is an extension of yourself, but it's also a product. Other people can help you make it a better product.

As a professional, you need to be ruthless with your work. "Kill your darlings." Cut out everything that isn't good until you're left with the bits that are.

I know a lot of indie artists can't afford to get other people, but it's still disturbing that the culture's shifted this much.

It's just too sink-or-swim for me to feel comfortable about it.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-07 17:22:00 UTC #45

yes you know that, I know that, (I ususally hate or try to detach myself from my art as much as possible) but like 90-99% of artist don't know or want to know that, that's why the word "Hater" is sometimes used to replace "Critic" and the art/comic comunity has become some what of a "Safe space" for most artist =/, not a really good enviroment for growth if you ask me -_-

keii4ii 2017-09-07 17:42:59 UTC #46

"I don't know anyone whom I trust and who is available" does not mean "I don't want an editor." As I have said,

This is not about me not wanting to cut things out. It's about me not wanting to form that kind of a relationship with someone who doesn't understand my goals 110%.

I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll bow out. I hope this post clarifies things.

69Michi 2017-09-07 17:54:17 UTC #47

Webcomics is an easy format to do and it's becoming more and more popular nowadays. It's like a sort of fast food to the consumers now. You have 2 spectrums of creators. The more popular one are those creators that didn't go into webcomic with the fixed goal to become a professional and are willing to take the risk to reach that goal. They are the creators that are working on their comic/story purely as a hobby.

The other side are those who are serious with their project but 1. Picky. 2. No time. Doing work with an editors require trust. Editors are really in every of your comic making process like @sarrowsmith10 described. It just requires too much commitment and time management.

Hence, editors are rare sights to see.

dynamic 2017-09-07 20:45:37 UTC #48

So I think most readers understand that webcomics are just going to be a hit or miss when it comes to quality just by the very nature of the work being a webcomic.

YES! I'm a reader and I can vouch. When I got into webcomics ten years ago, I didn't do it looking for polish. Maybe my standards are low, but "quality" is such a subjective thing. I'm content with hunting for the comics that appeal to only me.

It's just too sink-or-swim for me to feel comfortable about it.

Sink-or-swim for the reader or the creator? As far as I'm concerned, the hit-or-miss aspect was the whole appeal of the thing.

They are the creators that are working on their comic/story purely as a hobby.

Exactly. Not to say that some people can't suddenly shift gears and turn their hobby into a profession, but as a person I wouldn't expect them too and as a reader I wouldn't demand it of them either.

That being said, I've met my fair share of elitist readers who only want "the best" webcomics. If they are the ones you wanna make your targeted audience then I say go for it. Get an editor. HECK, GET FIVE EDITORS!

Croik 2017-09-07 20:48:46 UTC #49

Yeah, I agree with this. I'm always open to concrit, but I don't know that I would want to specifically sign someone on as an editor unless I was very familiar with their body of work and trusted their advice. Not all editors have good or relevant advice to offer, even among professionals, so simply having one isn't a guarantee of improvement. And finding/keeping one that DOES have good advice can be hard if you can't afford someone with experience.

Of course, learning which critique to absorb and which to ignore is also a skill creators need to practice, but that might be a topic for another thread.

SpavVy 2017-09-07 21:10:43 UTC #50

I honestly don't get why it's so important for indie creators to consider getting them in the first place? Some of us can't afford them and some of us just overall have no desire for them period. Heck I even politely turn down friends that offer help with things like adding tones just to take some of the workload off my back lol

revisionstudios 2017-09-08 05:14:08 UTC #51

I think this kind of attitude that OP might be worried about? Like why make it harder on yourself? Lol

It's important because it gets you out of your creative bubble and pushes you to do better. A lot of people tend to be really insular and protective over their projects because their ego is tied into it. And when ego gets involved, you start making choices that are lenient towards comfortable, mediocre ideas instead of doing what's better for the story. Objectivity is very important when it comes to improvement.

While I stand by what I said earlier (that it's more about accessibility), I do think a lot of people would benefit from opening up and allowing people in. I know how hard this is, I went through it too (ESPECIALLY with my editor), but even a good beta reader can really elevate your content by pointing out flaws you were blinded to. My beta reader has SAVED MY BUTT more times than I can count, she even catches things my editor doesn't because sometimes even he is too close to it.

And yeah, there are some REALLY skilled singlular people that can pull off really good writing and art at the same time and neither suffers for it. But realize that they're the exception to the rule, and getting even just a few nuggets of good feedback can really change the course of your project in a good way.

If you really don't care about it that's cool, there a ton of hobbyists here that just do it for fun and don't want the pressure. But I personally believe that if you're trying to do this professionally, as a full time job, and/or want your comic to be the best you can, then outside opinions during your creative process will be invaluable.

joe_galindez 2017-09-08 07:17:28 UTC #52

Don't think I haven't been chewing over what everyone's been saying. Getting artists to coordinate their schedules would be too difficult, so that shoots down the idea of a study circle. I still think it would do great as a format for artists' workshops and retreats. At the workshops I've been to, everyone was too focused on tearing down everyone else.

@keii4ii Well, what are your goals?

This is what I mean by blurred lines. Sometimes a hobbyist or outsider artist becomes famous and suddenly they've got a small media empire. But instead of polishing their act they just continue pumping out awful amateur content. Lazy amateur content. This angers me for a number of reasons, and one of those reasons is that the prevailing culture has failed them.

Taste is subjective. Quality, less so. Within any given genre people will generally agree on what makes something good or bad.

Both. I don't find it appealing when an artist I've been following for years comes down with a case of the brain eater and forces me to abandon their work. It wouldn't happen so often if more artists weren't stumbling in the dark.

Life's too short to spend it on anything but the best. And we do deserve the best.

SpavVy 2017-09-08 07:51:27 UTC #53

Well I don't really expect my comic to become professional shrug though it has gotten waaay more attention and support than I thought it would. Even if it does get to that point I still prefer being my only team, for me its not a case of having a big ego I just really love working on my comic and every process feels rewarding, its also very therapeutic to me which is another reason why I don't want other people touching it. I do ask my boyfriend who's good at writing for advice if I'm not so sure on something and he knows my story very well but that's about it.

revisionstudios 2017-09-08 13:02:16 UTC #54

That's completely fair. There really are a lot of legitimate reasons to not want one--it usually boils down to what the project means to you and what it's being used for. Therapy definitely falls under that category imo.

It is a rather nuanced situation sometimes. I think the frustration that some professionals feel with these topics usually stems from seeing a lot of people who want to be professionals but can't/won't take criticism, then throw a tantrum over not succeeding (I know I've dealt with this a lot). But of course, it's a disservice to assume that everyone who doesn't want an editor is like that. I think more people should consider having one or someone in a similar role, BUT at the end of the day it's a personal choice and it definitely doesn't make sense for everyone.

Croik 2017-09-08 17:00:51 UTC #55

If you don't mind me asking, how did you go about finding your current editor?

revisionstudios 2017-09-08 17:56:18 UTC #56

Full disclaimer, it wasn't by conventional means, lol. My editor ended up being my fiance.

He didn't start as my editor though. My co-creator and I started writing the comic back in like... 2011? and I just kept bugging him for feedback. He's not formally trained in it, but he's VERY well read and has had a lot of experience writing his own stories, so I knew he'd be a good resource.

At first he didn't really think our story was anything remotely publishable and didn't put much stock in it, but over time he got to see little nuggets of good and eventually got invested enough that he just asked to be a part of the team proper. He ended up contributing a lot of the missing pieces and helped iron out what we already did have, so he's become a core member.

So unfortunately I don't know a lot of resources for other people to find editors. But, I will say that when it comes to finding team members in general (no matter the role) I've always had success asking for help in places where my fans can see. Many of my past and current team members were my watchers on DeviantART--I would post my job offer on the forum and they would get notified, then apply. A lot of times I didn't even realize they watched me or knew of my comic until later. But it kinda helped to have that base line connection because they were already invested (or at least interested) in both me and the project and wanted to help it grow. I imagine you could find writers and editors this way too, not just other visual art types.

In fact, my beta reader falls under the "dA watcher" category too. When we wrote chapter one we got like 5-7 people to beta read, her included, but she was the only one that really stuck through the years. She's writing a novel of her own and she doesn't know what's going to happen in our story at all, so her feedback is really valuable and eye opening.

Strontium 2017-09-08 19:27:53 UTC #57

I would be open to being someone's editor, as I currently edit a comic and could probably do another, but I would want to be compensated in some way, whether it was money or art. The person I'm editing for right now is a friend of a friend and we've become friends in turn, so I do that one for free out of the goodness of my own heart. But if I editied another comic I'd want something out of it for me.

I had an editor early on in my comic, we edited each other's comics. That really helped me! I kept drawing thumbs on the wrong side of the hand... so I needed help with that. After editing three chapters both my editor and I felt I was ready to move on without her, and she herself had stopped making her comic already.

I'm much better at catching those paneling and anatomy mistakes now.