Is there a point in a comic where a reworking would be okay?

jmhenry 2015-11-26 16:54:16 UTC #1

I'm very aware of the taboo around redos in webcomics, but what about at a time where it would save time and reader interest? For example after working on 10 or so pages in the recent chapter, you find a way to tell those same pages in just 3 to 5, not only saving time but also getting to the interesting stuff faster.

So as long as later pages keep updating, though maybe a bit slower, would that be an okay thing to do? Or are reworkings always bad in any situation?

okellymx 2015-11-26 17:06:13 UTC #2

NOPE, never.Learn from your mistakes and don't go back. Getting to the interesting stuff faster may not necessarily be a good thing. I've honestly never seen a reader ask for an artist to redo pages, I'd be pretty pissed if an artist did this. Finishing is better than being perfect, I think.

AffectedMind 2015-11-26 17:15:26 UTC #3

I have to disagree here, always think about improvement if you can.

And here I agree. Sometimes it can really screw up the entire story. I had the same problem. In my comic the pace is slow, but it's kinda necessary. I mainly try to cut pages to minimum when characters are talking. THAT can be really boring. So if it's about dialogue save some for later, you don't need to reveal everything right at the start.

It's kind of hard for me to answer your question @jmhenry, it all depends what pace fits your story. Personally I have re-done my entire story and it looks so much better now and the pace is much, much more slower.

jmhenry 2015-11-26 17:20:22 UTC #4

Good answer!

I honestly never considered the reader's thoughts on this sort of thing, I personally wouldn't be bothered by it if the story didn't grind to a halt because of it, but I see what you mean. Thanks for the response!

DoodleDamage 2015-11-26 17:26:51 UTC #5

It really depends honestly. If you keep redoing things until you're satisfied, your story won't go anywhere because you're nipping the bud way too much, but if you're like 4 chapters in, on a hiatus and you want to do rework some old pages, I don't see why not? I feel like when most people start off their webcomic they don't have as strong of a sense of direction until they're several chapters in, so they redo older pages to solidify the story line.

As for your situation, it actually doesn't take that long to read 10 pages in my opinion. I mean I think it's good to have slow pacing, then you get into the cool stuff afterwards, for buildup (Like... my own story is still stuck in the slow pacing xD) it's always good to keep track of the story's pacing because people need a breather in between.

So yeah I'd say don't worry about it, unless you absolutely positively must do it no matter what.

AnnaLandin 2015-11-26 17:29:03 UTC #6

They're not always bad, but they're usually not a good idea.

Not because the reworking in itself is bad - maybe the new way you've found of doing this is great! - but because it so very, very often results in creators stalling out and never finishing things. They get stuck re-doing old pages, and run out of steam, and give up on the project altogether.

Also, you run the risk of alienating your current readers, who have stuck with you this far. They liked the old pages well enough to keep reading, and they're interested in where the story is now. I suppose you could go back and forth, updating an old page and then posting a new page, and so on, but would it be worth it? Your current readers are already at the "interesting stuff", as you put it.

As a rule, though, webcomic readers are a pretty nice crowd; they understand that older pages looking different/being told in a different manner compared to new ones is a thing that happens.

jmhenry 2015-11-26 17:35:00 UTC #7

I think you both make a good point here. There is a point where you have to consider what you can improve to help you down the road. Your long time readers may not want to read a redone version of something they already read, but new readers may find themselves sticking around for the new stuff.

I remember the horrible job that I did on the first 9 pages of Chapter 3, paced way to slowly and filled with unnecessary pages. I stopped and reworked that page, and I barely regret it, and a lot of new readers liked that chapter more than most of volume 1.

That said, there is a benefit to just learning from your mistakes and moving on. You already know where the last chapter went wrong, so you take that experience to improve the next chapter.

I hadn't got the chance to check out your comic since I last reviewed it on Inkblazers, but I'm glad your comic's doing well!

jmhenry 2015-11-26 17:50:08 UTC #8

I think I'm starting to understand why it's taboo now. I do remember following a few comics that would just stop and never pick up again, but I've never followed one that did it because of getting to caught up in reworking things. I had no idea that was common trend to be honest with you.

I've gone on a short hiatus before to fix the first few pages of my third chapter way back, came back better, and never regretted the decision. I guess readers have been burned by the usual pattern so many times that it kinda created a negative opinion around it.

@DoodleDamage @AnnaLandin
Thanks for helping me put this in perspective!

AffectedMind 2015-11-26 18:18:56 UTC #9

Oooooh so I remember correctly! Are you still doing reviews?

jmhenry 2015-11-26 18:36:52 UTC #10

I wish! XD I haven't got much time for it anymore since coloring pages takes an extra amount of time. I was planning on making a review thread where I'd take requests in between breaks from my own comic though, so we'll see how that goes.

shazzbaa 2015-11-26 19:09:20 UTC #11

Yeah, I don't necessarily say that redos are "always bad," but I always warn that they're a trap and advise against them.

It can be very tempting to look backwards, and the problem with webcomics is, your older pages are ALWAYS going to be exponentially worse than your current pages, because you're constantly learning and gaining in skill. Once you've redone some of those pages that bother you, it's going to be harder and harder as you go to not look back and see the things you could do better now.

I'd also be very suspicious of redraw impulses for art that's so recent. "I just finished these ten pages but I figured out a way to make them better, should I redo them?" No, friend, I don't think you should. That's just fussing. Your pages will often be imperfect, and being able to let them go is an EXTREMELY important skill, in webcomics, especially.

I agree with this. As a reader, I don't reeeaaalllyyy care about redone pages because, like, I already read that part of the story! And if that part of the story changes at all, it's frustrating to have the creator go "no wait, that didn't happen QUITE that way, hang on, lemme fix it" in the middle of the story. .........And it's worth noting that many of the times I've been following a comic that decided it needed to go back and redo its beginnings, I liked the redone version less.

It's like, when George Lucas created Star Wars, there were a lot of shots he wanted to shoot again and fix, but couldn't, because they couldn't afford to do the special effect more than once. When he released the new version of the Original Trilogy, he couldn't understand why fans hated it so much -- he was finally able to fix all those mistakes he'd hated for years! But so many people feel he made them worse.

If you look at everything, and you understand that it can be frustrating for readers, and that looking backwards is a tempting trap, and you're able to do it without current updates grinding to a hault, and you've considered the terrifying prospect of accidentally becoming George Lucas, and you still think redoing these pages is going to be a better use of your time than focusing on putting those improvements to use in pages to come, then............ yeah, you can redo old pages!!
But it's good to be very wary of doing it, because very often when we want to redo pages, the only thing it's doing is assuaging our insecurities as a creator, and not actually helping our work or our comics or our readers.

One last thing: The point when redrawing is ALWAYS okay is when your pages aren't finished yet. If you find this desire to rework stuff for pacing reasons is happening a lot, it may be a sign that spending more time on thumbnails and sketches, or working on thumbnails in batches so you can get a good idea of pacing, would be a help for the future!

igneriss 2015-11-26 19:22:24 UTC #12

Here, let me speak from a perspective on an artist who reworked two comics CX

My 6,75 is a redone version, and I do not regret redoing it. I started drawing the very first version about 7-8 years ago, had everything planned, but dropped it because I didn't like it. I think it's much better for the story that I took those few years to plan it out and make it better. Also, when moving from IB to tapastic, I added a prologue, fixed some panels, and changed/added few pages. Again, I don't regret it. The point is, when I first dropped my series, it had no readers at all, I didn't show it to anyone. When I redone it while moving, those were only some little changes, and it was a completely new story for most of my readers anyway c;

So I think it was okay to redo 6,75 C: BUT!

I used to draw another serie (I used to draw series like a machine, haha, in little notebooks during classes). Which I really, really liked. I liked the characters. My friends liked the beginning of the story and the humour. But I kept redrawing it. Because I got an idea how to tell the story better, or because I improved in drawing. I never managed to finish it, but I have like 5 versions of the first chapter. Aaaand in this case, redrawing it was a really bad idea : p

I think it's okay to redraw, as long as you are still continuing the story, and not letting redrawing consume you CX
We are always getting better. With time, we learn how to tell stories better or draw better. It's really easy to get caught into a redrawing cycle once you start it : p

Aetherwing 2015-11-26 19:32:34 UTC #13

I had an old webcomic that wound up never going anywhere, and one of the reasons why was because I kept wanting to go back and redraw pages. I will wind up re-doing the entire thing at some point, but only because the thing really needed restructuring in a lot of different ways. I feel the idea is a good one, it just needs to be presented properly.

As for my current comic, yeah, I'm not super happy with the first couple issues, but I think that they get across what's going on fairly well and the readers I do have seem to enjoy them (which makes me feel a lot better!) So I think going back and re-doing any of those pages would just be a waste of time and would probably burn me out :/ And I understand wanting to get to the interesting stuff faster, but sometimes the story really does need the build up!

Damatris 2015-11-26 19:42:49 UTC #14

I think the most important thing is to ask yourself why you want to redo them. If it really is just to make them prettier with your improved skills I'd advice against it for same reasons everyone else has said already. But if there's a fundamental flaw in story telling that will make it almost impossible for you to advance your story the way you want it then it might be easier to reboot it now than if you've got tons of pages.

Also, going faster isn't necessarily a good thing. You have to remember that readers don't know your characters and story like you do so rushing too much might make it confusing to them. They might not be able to get a grasp on your characters or really understand why things happen.

Although, to contradict myself, I'll actually draw my earlier chapters again for cosmetic reasons (and slight tightening) but this is done so I can get it ready for printing. I would leave it as it is but I have changed the medium couple times before settling on current one. As a webcomic that's not too big of a problem but as a physical book it would look simply horribly shabby. :'D

Strontium 2015-11-26 19:59:12 UTC #15

Remaking entire pages to reflect your current skill might not be worth it, like other people said. However I will likely be reworking pages from the first and second chapters of my comic this coming year as I prepare the comic fo print. The ch1 pages are a little shorter length-wise (dimensionally) than my other pages, so I want to lengthen them. I also have many pages where the panels flow from right to left rather than left to right - for whatever reason, the former is more natural to me, but it's anathema to western comics. Finally, I mixed up which side of the hand the thumb is in ch1 and ch2 pages. But I'm not going to be redrawing whole pages, jut flipping panels and redrawing parts of them if they look wrong mirrored. Since I'm on hiatus anyways formatting the book, it seems worth it to me. Does anyone disagree?

jmhenry 2015-11-26 20:14:42 UTC #16

No complaints here! You're already on hiatus and you're getting ready to print your comic, good luck to you, btw.

So just to sum up what I've gathered from everyone so far, reworking pages isn't always a bad thing, but there's a pretty legitimate worry about creators getting caught up in constantly doing it.... Or becoming George Lucas.

I wouldn't say the flaw is story-breaking. If I were to go ahead with it, then the fix would mostly involve trimming some pages a bit and tightening the pacing. But I decided not to do that since a lot of you have been really convincing. : ) I still don't think it's the worst idea possible if you have a plan to keep things moving and don't get tempted, but it's also better to just learn and keep going, all while cringing at your old pages! XD

whirlwyndstorm 2015-11-26 22:03:31 UTC #17

A lot of people I know restarted their comics because they so hated their old artwork and I couldn't see what was so bad about it that warranted a complete do-over. I should talk though, I've restarted 20 Galaxies many times and Lady Unlucky once.

But I wonder how people feel about a specific circumstance -- what if you started the comic on a whim, not intending to go anywhere with it, and then later decide to take it more seriously? Say, you want to print it, but the older pages wouldn't translate well to print (either technically or artistically).

Damatris 2015-11-26 22:11:21 UTC #18

That's the exact reason I'm re-drawing my old pages on the side when I have time (which means sloooowlyyy) so it won't affect the normal update schedule.

There definitely are reasons to redraw old pages but it has to be thought out very carefully so it serves an actual purpose, in my opinion.

jmhenry 2015-11-26 23:53:37 UTC #19

You're the author of 20 Galaxies!? That was one of the first few webcomics I read on Smackjeeves years before I started my own. I always wondered what happened to it since then.

That's actually my situation atm, or at least until I'm confident that a printed version would sell.

shazzbaa 2015-11-27 00:36:27 UTC #20

Formatting for print is one of the few times I do think it can be necessary and worth it to rework pages! Something I've seen a lot is when people will have older pages saved at too low a resolution and have to redraw them in order to ever print their work, and for things like that, man, it's unavoidable!

Plus a cohesive printed book is a lot more of a tangible reward with a much more obvious endpoint.