Eh...no, not the same pose. Her butt in the air, full focus. His body crouched to the ground. I do find it odd that you don't see the difference here. I mean, this isn't just about whether or not she's sexualised. They simply do not have the same pose. They look very different. I don't know if you're a guy, girl or what, but in general, I find that men have a harder time seeing how this is demeaning, and I think it's because it's not demeaning to them - it's easier to tell others what to put up with when it's not something you personally have to put up with. And I actually had a link to someone replicating that pose showing how it is impossible for her to have her butt in the air like that because of how her legs are posed, but can't find it right now.
Yeah but...the way you see it is also in your head. Are you implying that I'm somehow less objective than you? Because there's no such thing as being objective. Everyone sees things based on our lived lives and experiences. That's why women tend to see this as more demeaning than men do. We have very different experiences when it comes to how we are used to see ourselves in the media. And the reason why people found this so odd is actually exactly what you just pointed out - she's climbing up the building, so why the ridiculous pose? It doesn't make any sense! Have her look normal!
Getting critiqued for your work comes with the territory. If you're working for DC or Marvel, you better be able to handle that. Especially of you belong to that part of the population that has the most chance of getting a job in this industry.
There is a very well written piece about this (it's not just about men writing about women characters, it's about white men writing about marginalised groups in general, but I think it's a great guide for anyone writing about other marginalised group - I'm white, and I for instance want to be able to write POC in an interesting, non-stereotypical way): http://www.themarysue.com/note-to-white-dudes/
I recommend reading the whole thing but this is a short paragraph that I think is relevant to this discussion:
"Remember that just because people are expressing negative feelings about something you did – and hell, might even be *gasp angry about it – doesn’t mean they’re “chastising” you, or that it’s in any way personal. They are responding strongly, because it’s one small example of the many instances in which they’ve felt othered by pop culture, and they want these instances to become fewer and further between until they’re gone."*
And that was my point with what I wrote before. Women know what makes us feel sexualised and treated as lesser beings. Men sometimes just don't get it. That's why we're letting them know so they can do a better job. This might come out as harsh criticism sometimes, but again - if you want to improve, you've got to handle that criticism. See it as an opportunity to get to know your audience better, find out why what you did annoys your audience, and then improve. If people keep complaining about the same thing, then maybe it's about time to consider their complaints. If you're portraying a group of people you don't belong to, then the best way to know if you're doing a good job in portraying them is to listen to their feedback. This is pretty basic, it's the kind of audience research companies like Marvel and DC can afford to take the time to do.
Also, I recommend having a look at this blog: http://eschergirls.tumblr.com
The insane number of images she's collected so far is a symptom of what's wrong in mainstream comics. Again, it's about how sexualisation of women is often
out of context and even sacrifices the storytelling. Sexualisation isn't always bad. But sexualisation out of context definitely is - like having Spider Woman climbing a building while looking like she's ready to get fucked.
I'm going to have to disagree again. It think what you say is outright wrong, because the fact is that it's women who are drawn in ways that creators would never draw men. Take a look at The Hawkeye Initiative: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com
Here you get to see men portrayed like never before....like women. And this blog has gotten a lot of hate from VERY ANGRY men who are deeply offended that people dare draw their masculine man heroes in such ridiculous, feminine ways. But this is what it would look like if men were portrayed the way women are. But they're not. Because women are often drawn in ridiculous, sexualised ways that most creators would never even dream of drawing male characters in, because it would make them look emasculated.
If you want to take the stance that you don't care that women are portrayed in a more sexualised way, there's probably nothing I can do about that. But saying that it's not how it is is simply incorrect.
This is a report by the American Psychological Association (focusing mostly on how sexualisation of women and girls affect young/adolescent girls): http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx
Again, I recommend reading the whole thing, but here are some excerpts:
"Virtually every media form studied provides ample evidence of the sexualization of women, including television, music videos, music lyrics, movies, magazines, sports media, video games, the Internet and advertising (e.g., Gow, 1996; Grauerholz & King, 1997; Krassas, Blauwkamp,& Wesselink, 2001, 2003; Lin, 1997; Plous & Neptune, 1997; Vincent, 1989; Ward, 1995). Some studies have examined forms of media that are especially popular with children and adolescents, such as video games and teen-focused magazines.
In study after study, findings have indicated that women more often than men are portrayed in a sexual manner (e.g., dressed in revealing clothing, with bodily postures or facial expressions that imply sexual readiness) and are objectified (e.g., used as a decorative object, or as body parts rather than a whole person). In addition, a narrow (and unrealistic) standard of physical beauty is heavily emphasized. These are the models of femininity presented for young girls to study and emulate.
Psychology offers several theories to explain how the sexualization of girls and women could influence girls’ well-being. Ample evidence testing these theories indicates that sexualization has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, sexuality and attitudes and beliefs.
Although most of these studies have been conducted on women in late adolescence (i.e., college age), findings are likely to generalize to younger adolescents and to girls, who may be even more strongly affected because their sense of self is still being formed."
This is why I (and other women and girls) care so much about this, while men seem to...not always give a shit. Well, some do, and we love them for that! But many don't, and that's why we'd like to see more women creators working with the big names in mainstream media. They are more likely to care, and therefore more likely to create something that has a positive effect. It is documented that women and girls are sexualised more. It is documented that it has a negative effect on our mental and physical health. We just want to be able to consume mainstream entertainment and see ourselves portrayed as people.
No, it doesn't actually come with the territory. It is possible to choose differently. Again, this goes back to what I said earlier. If you put the right people to do the job, you don't need to have leg spreading and butts in the air. There are creators out there (both male and female) who manage to create comics with female characters without sexualising them. It is possible. I've seen examples of it, and some of these examples are doing really, really well, like MS Marvel.
