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smokesalty
Jan '22
1

Listen, I get it's faster and easier. But referencing is so much more beneficial when you're starting out.

I feel like we can all easily figure out when someone's used a model. The art just does not match up with the anatomy and it often looks extremely stiff.

It just annoys me when I see advice like 'trace over 3D models! That's what they're there for!" I think this advice is fine if you're a more experienced artist who already knows their anatomy and just needs to do this to speed up time (hell, I do it with perspective shots because it helps make the character look like they're actually in their environment)

BUT- this should not be the case for someone who needs to take the time to learn how to draw bodies.

What do you guys think?

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    Jan '22

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    Feb '22
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LunarScyphozoa
Jan '22

Tracing and copying aren’t very beneficial for beginners. You don’t think about shapes, you think about lines

Moesakuara
Jan '22

It is a nice exercise, to get an idea of placing or blocking characters in a scene, but like any exercise it's nothing more if you're a beginner. There are people who custom make their own models and draw or animate over them to get a more fluid, two-dimensional look, which is understandable. But I think that's something you do much later, when you've learned a lot of fundamentals.

Mallory
Jan '22

I always D: a little when people suggest tracing over models because unless you REALLY know what you're doing, that's just a recipe for boring/stiff/anatomically wrong poses. Those models aren't rigged for proper articulation and muscle movement, they will be off from what a normal human would look like doing the same thing. Their only use is to provide base shapes for scenarios where there's extreme foreshortening/etc and/or to simulate lighting conditions, so they can be a sort of guide to build the actual body on. If you don't know what you're looking for, it's going to be a disaster (not to mention it's going to seriously hinder your artistic development at that stage).

Basically, if you wouldn't feel comfortable attempting the pose free-handed, don't trace it. Tracing is for saving time, not for avoiding stuff you don't know.

KiabIce
Jan '22

I feel like tracing and copying are good for beginners who need to study anatomy more, or to learn how to draw whatever they want.

I copy at times! Esp when practicing. It doesn't exactly look like the reference but thats the point. The reference is there to help.

Mallory
Jan '22

Referencing stuff is a totally different skill set though. Like, it's 100% fine to look up references and recreate/copy what you're seeing. It's a great way to learn and improve at all stages of your artistic journey. I think this thread is only talking about those 3D models you can set up and trace over. You're not learning anything from them unless you already have a solid foundation and can just pick up on elements from the model that you need.

thedude3445
Jan '22

I'm a very beginner artist, and anytime I ever trace off the top of a 3D model, it looks significantly worse than if I used a model or image as a reference. I'm betting that's the same for most people.

Lensing
Jan '22

Tracing can help you improve but you have to do it right and it has to be part of your training.
I did a lot of online courses. My 2 favorite ones are Proko (figure and anatomy) and Doodle Warriors (portraits)
In both courses you do tracings through the whole course.
In Proko you do anatomy / muscle tracings. You have to understand the muscles to do that, otherwise
it doesn´t work. The doodle warriors course is the greatest course I ever took and improved the most in
a short time. You trace a "lay in" over a head, then you eyeball/copy the head free hand and check it
with the tracing. It helps you so much to understand your mistakes.

The problem is that learning artists think that tracing is a short cut, people trace over 3d poses without
thinking about gesture. 3d figures are stiff and they don´t consider body weight / force.
Everybody can do what they want, it´s their art, I don´t think it looks good and you train to draw
stiff figures that way

darthmongoose
Jan '22

I think for practice, tracing models for figures can help a person build pen control and just get a sense for proportions, but I'd generally advise against doing it in a comic. It tends to lead to very stiff, weightless poses where all the proportions are right, but somehow it doesn't "feel" alive. It's kind of hard to pose a 3D model effectively without a strong understanding of things like weight and gesture, and once you've reached that level, you'll probably barely need them any more except maybe as an aid for difficult angles and poses (and probably not traced).

The other issue with using them for a comic is... if you've started making a comic with them, when and how can you stop? Because if you rely on tracing models to get the proportions looking good, they're probably going to look "worse" as well as inconsistent if you stop, so it's really hard to wean yourself off that crutch, since nobody wants to feel like their work has suddenly shifted dramatically from those perfectly proportioned figures to more freeform looking ones that might not look as good partway through a comic that's already gained a readership. So you potentially get locked into using them for the probably multiple years a comic takes to complete, and unless you're doing a lot of anatomical drawing practice outside of your comic (and let's be honest, making a comic takes so much time, it kind of has to BE your regular drawing practice :sweat_02:) it's really easy to just not be able to raise your anatomical freehand drawing skills to the point where your freehand figures consistently look as good as or better than the traced ones to perform that perfect almost-seamless switchover.

I can't stop somebody from making their comic how they like, and like... hey, maybe some people have good reasons why they need the models, like disabilities I haven't considered, but generally, as somebody who often gets praised by other professional artists for how dynamic and full of life and energy my figures are, my advice for beginners is to just put in the work and be okay with the drawings not always being perfect because mistakes can be learned from and readers are pretty forgiving. Your character's body isn't just a prop that holds up their face, it's just as important for expressing their personality and feeling as their face, and while it's a real challenge to get good at anatomical drawing, it is SO worth it. :hype_01:

YS_og
Jan '22
1

Yeah, definitely don't have time to learn organic, anatomically proper figures for one time illustrations as I just did what I could to avoid paying for every piece of art for my novel that isn't going to ever make any profit in return. I will stick to 3D model tracing as I only draw once every few months and its just 1 pose. Plus I dont care if they look stiff I guess :\ Not interested in spending months I won't have on focused drawing practice :sweat_smile:

migxmeg
Jan '22

"Shouldn't" is one of those words that always makes me scratch my head a little. Really depends what your goals/style are and what works can vary so hugely from person to person. I'm kind of convinced that anyone who puts a lot of time, energy and thought into their art is going to become skilled enough at their own style to make interesting and impressive work.

If your goals included becoming great at drawing realistic or vaguely realistic characters with nuanced body language or cool-looking muscles etc. then yeah I'd recommend against learning just by tracing anything (models or reference photos).

Tailzkip
Jan '22

I tried to make this point about tracing to artists in a discord a few weeks ago and got blasted for it lol. These people just need to learn the hard way why they never improve xD

YS_og
Jan '22

Keep in mind there are people who CAN'T learn to do it the hard way. 3D tracing might be their only possible way to do so and you would think "then dont write comics". Yeah that's the easy part, but if they are dead set on it, why beat the dead horse on the subject with them if that's how they are set on doing? Probably a reason why you got blasted for it lol

Did you ask why they insist on using 3D models?

I know for a fact I could spend years focusing on proper human figure drawing and would never improve much at all because I know I have pretty much no talent for it (as the others might be as well). Lucky me I only worry about novel writing and improving in that arena but if they are comic writers or bust, just let them do what they want????

I still have to agree with @migxmeg. I don't like assuming everyone's goal is to be a money making comic artist. And with everyone else saying "learn learn learn" that's like the old saying we all know to be very misleading "If you put your mind to it anything is possible" :\

smokesalty
Jan '22

I have to disagree. I don't think you have to necessarily be doing figure drawing- but referencing while making the comics even if its from a 3D model can assist them in learning. I do it all the time because there are poses I still need to learn how to do. People can start a comic at whatever point in their art journey, more power to them.

I do acknowledge that the title of this topic is a bit misleading (it was moreso just supposed to be my opinion, I didn't mean it to come of as YOU CAN NEVER DO THIS! I might change the title because I don't want it to come off that way)

There is no 'only' way to do something. I understand if someone needs an artwork but has to do it themselves because they can't afford an artist. That's a different situation to someone making a full on comic. In your case, I think you've done an excellent job with your cover.

But I think that if a comic artist is solely relying on 3D models for their poses because they 'can't learn it' they should change their mindset. They have the capacity to learn it, but it doesn't come quickly. Art is not easy. I understand that. I've had horrendous anatomy before which I've had to learn to improve over the years.

But, if someone wants to make their comic through tracing models, that's fine. I was moreso discussing this 'trace over 3D models' advice for people who are looking to improve drawing bodies and are new to art.

If you're making a comic, you need to know how to draw people. It's fine if you're still learning, but relying on tracing models likely will not help you learn to draw your own proportions in your style if that's what you're going for (it depends on your goals as you mentioned) It can become a crutch, especially when you don't feel confident drawing bodies on your own.

A lot of artists will tell you to practice to improve, and that is how it goes for the most part. Just like any skill, dedicating a lot of time and effort to it is necessary if you're looking to improve. Learning and improvement is different for everyone, but that doesn't mean someone is incapable or untalented to do it.

YS_og
Jan '22

I can agree to the sentiment that it's bad practice for someone who is that serious about comics. I was just saying what's the point if they are dead set in doing what is bad for the comic because I feel it's not in anyone's right to judge, but if they are actually asking for help, then yes you are right. I will leave it at that as I realize what I was going off of was based on assumptions (which yes lol your title had me feel like it was somewhat a low-key jab at them but I realize isn't so I stand corrected)

And yes, thank you :slight_smile: I drew all the art for my story. 100%, exclusively 3D model traced, zero free-handed drawing for all the characters lol

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