Opinions on nudity please. NSFW 18+ Topic and imagery

[ratique]

Come on guys, isn't all this talk a bit slut shamey?

Slut shamey? I think you need to elaborate on that one, as I have no idea where you are coming from with that one.

[ArtistHan]

First of all, congrats on your engagement and starting your new life post army!

My reaction was simply: she has a nice ass body. And that was it haha But then again, I'm very open to nudity in art. Nudity is part of humanity and being all squealy about it, like some people can be, seems juvenile to me. Of course, the problem is that many times in comics (or media and entertainment in general), nudity is not a form or truth or celebration but simply sex appeal and objectification.

I think I'd have to see the image in the context of the comic to see if it could be potentially offensive, misogynist, or the typical objectification of women as is often seen in comics in general (though of course, you're trying not do that, which I have to say, I really respect). I would have no problem with this character design if she were clearly some kind of sci-fi take on tribal warriors and there was some kind of need or pride within that character's culture for nudity, for example. Also, if this were a Mystique-like character who doesn't give a rat's ass about clothes and runs around naked because that's just how she likes to dress(? haha), then I think that would be very empowering. After all, I think women dressing the way they want despite judgment is a powerful thing, and if in a comic that includes nudity, people can deal with it. You could also show nudity of different body types to celebrate the human body further, etc.

Point is, I think execution is everything. It will all depend on the context, the world-building, the plot, and the themes of the comic. But as for the drawing itself, I just think it's a superbly drawn sketch of a very toned woman within a sci-fi world. I guess I can see the worry about it being objectifying, but I had to really think about it before it hit me that it could be that way. I think if the pose had her leaning over a car or something, I'd definitely be offended, but this alone just looks like a nice sketch.

Hope that helps!

[Banditt]

Ive stated my goals and asked for help in steering toward a product that would have artistic value. So please everyone try to refrain from accusing me of being a hypocrite or calling my art juvenile :/ I asked for constructive criticism, not people to drop by just to shove opinions in my face and walk away. If you feel so strongly, then HELP me, dont condemn me. THAT is hypocrisy!

I do feel strongly against my art coming off as smut. Ive been rather uncomfortable in rendering nudity myself all this time, despite adoring the artwork of high fantasy artists like Boris Valejo and Julie Bell, FrankFrazetta, Sanjulian, etc. . Im going in this direction as something entirely new to me and that is why I have asked for HELP! Help me make it respectable!!!! Dont condemn me, shame me and offer nothing constructive or advice that would help you see it in a better light! I have complete confidence in my art. It is NOT juvenile and those statements offend me the most. Im not drawing some dirty little cartoon. Im trying to render good artwork that celebrates the human form. For heavens sake, GO LOOK at the artist whom I cite for examples!!!!!! Go look up classic Conan the Barbarian art by those artists! Go look at Weird Tales; they are still in business after all these years! Look at the cover art for the Barsoom series! I LOVE that Alphonse Mucha was suggested!! YESSSS!!!! Thats exactly what Im talking about!

And yes I do feel as though some posters are slut shaming And Im trying VERY hard not to get offended because this is MY FIANCEE And I am very proud of her. As far as mysgonist, not only does she work hard to be so fit, she is also a very strong independent woman. both of these values are going into this character. This isnt some poor helpless princess damsel in distress being bared at the delight of her captors! This is a strong woman, "hear her roar". Also a big part of the 80s, if any of you were alive to experience it. How many feminists are out there protesting topless? How many anti-rape protesters? Women should not be ashamed of their bodies! And it sure as hell should not be shamed as being "slutty" in artwork!!

Fan service has girls bent over, breasts spilling out, sexual poses, UPSKIRT, overly sexualized characters. I have a REAL PERSON, drawn as she really is, in NO provocative pose! A strong woman with a big gun about to lay the smack down on her enemies. How is anyone offended or feeling this is smut??

Sorry, I dont mean to get so bent out of shape, but I feel like a few of you are straight up attacking me and NOT even trying to help me make this project something to take seriously. IF you arent going to help, dont bother to post!!

On the other hand, the rest of you folks are what I cherish about Tapastic!! THANK YOU With your helpful opinions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, I can steer this project the direction it needs to go. And I appreciate every single one of you so much!!!

Im still figuring out tags on here. I think Ive got it now...

@keac totally! Im all over that label, which is why I even labeled this topic Thank you

@GlanceReviver Im not going for shock value or smut. I appreciate your opinions, thankyou. When you were drawing the nudes from a life model in class, did you find that an exercise in shock value or smut? There is nothing driving an explicit scene here. I do thank you for pointing out what you like as well That is extremely helpful. Im just drawing my model as she is. The sheer top seems like a good place to lean you also think? And I LOOOOVE Mucha But again thats an example of turn of the century when people appreciated artwork and nudity But yes, totally! Maybe something akin to his Worlds Fair art, match box or menus? Gossamer veils and sheer, draping cloth? I might accent it and attach it to the body with the gold and jewel encrusted chains from Conan and Barsoom?

@scythe Thank you very kindly. You see the issue I see. Nudity just isnt acceptable so much anymore. Victorian and turn of the century people conducted themselves prudishly but adored nude art. Now we have a society where we have Miley Cirus displaying as she does and pregnant 15 year olds.... but my simple nude rendering, which is NOT in an explicit pose, is being shamed Well, as I get enough rendered to give a sample of the story, I am sure it will hold up and be something worth reading thank you.

@ArtistHan Thank you Im super excited for the new life Im starting! And yes, super helpful! You also totally get where Im stuck I need to keep it classy and not objectified; and we are also so slathered with that sort of fan service, we instantly jump at anything showing skin as smut. Frankly, I dont see how the Xmen are NOT seen as smut. The White Queen outfits? The skin tight spandex that highlights every muscle and curve? Even nipples are highlighted on females in XMEN costumes Those costumes are far more sexualized and objectifying. To get that level of skin tight in the real world, you need latex or super small, thin spandex... like any BDSM :/ Cyclops looks like a gimp, everything covered except his mouth, skin tight leotard and bright yellow straps and belts.

*NOTE Im a huge XMEN fan, Im just pointing this out.

And yes, Mystique is completely nude in all the XMEN movies and is super active and combative. Thank you for pointing that out as well!

Honestly, I value everyones opinion. It helps me get a good idea of the full range of what I will experience once it is released; and can adjust it NOW so that Im not investing so much time and work into something that will just blow up in my face when done Please understand what I am trying to achieve!! PLEASE. And get the fact that Im bringing this project up now, in its infancy so I can adjust it to be better and better...with your help everyone!

I will ask for a bit more patience. Let me get a couple pages knocked out so you can get the feel for the project and the story and see what is going on.

And if this thread gets out of control I will delete it. I have no shame for my project, I believe in what I am doing. But I appreciate this community way too much to start a powder keg I am flabbergasted to see the kind of cruel and demeaning responses that a few individuals have posted. However, I am beyond thankful for the rest of you; the 90% who are trying to be super helpful. You all rock!! THANK YOU

[gateofselidor]

The comments here are very mild. None of them are saying anything negative about your fiancee or shaming her, they are merely making observations about your choice of costume vs your story. I think you're concentrating too hard on what the comic means to you (and by extension what your fiancee means to you) and you're not really seeing things from the perspective of a potential reader, who knows nothing about you, your relationship, or your intentions.

Nobody is going to look at your comic and see a man who loves his fiancee and wants to celebrate her through his art. They are simply going to see a comic with an attractive, topless woman in an environment where it's not really practical or necessary to be going topless. Your justifications for drawing her as she is are perfectly reasonable, and it's also perfectly understandable that you don't want your art of her to be seen as smut, but the reader will not know this, and probably won't care. Comics as a whole are not exactly known for their sensitive and progressive depictions of women, so when people read your comic they will bring certain assumptions with them, and interpret your work through them.

There's really nothing you can do about it besides accept it and not let it get you down. Posting art online is difficult enough as it is because of the emotional bond creators tend to have with their works, but the added layer of attachment you have because of the subject matter is going to make things extra difficult, and you're going to need a thick skin to deal with the feedback.

[RiverKai]

I'm having trouble reading 100% of the replies above, it's quite a bit of text!

However, I wanted to add that before there were heavy gender roles, in Ancient societies men and women would wear the same style of outfits. This often meant showing off their breasts and nipples (regardless of their sex) because it was just what everyone wore, and that's the first thing I thought of when I saw your drawing. It looks like a mix of ancient and futuristic to me, and it sounds like you aren't intending to heavily sexualize her? I mean she's buff as hell (which yes, reminds me of Tank Girl too) and this is exactly the same as all of the countless buff-shirtless-dude-protagonists I've seen going to war and such.

Without context, I guess this forum post shows how people first respond above. If I'm looking at it completely neutrally, what I wrote above is what I see.

Either way, it would be hard to know unless it was in story context. I can't argue it either way because I don't know what your story will end up like, so I can't say I am accurately judging or not. All I know is what it reminds me of, so I hope that helps!

[scythe]

I guess I should have added a smiley because that comment was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. As in, something someone on tumblr might say about a bunch of people passive aggressively telling a woman that she's too sexy and needs to cover up.

[ratique]

Ah, yes, that in mind it makes more sense. Thanks!

[Banditt]

I totally see what you mean @gateofselidor and I can't thank you enough for the positive vibes! That's the support this community is famous for
There is half a page drawn, no text; I can't help but feel it's premature for folks to be judging what fits or not. I believe I'm a victim of preconceived notions :/

I'm rolling out the rest of this page and a second soon. I might wait to post anything until I've got 3 or 4 done so that some semblance of story can be gleaned. Then fair judgement can be rendered. Again though, I'm totally flexible; if I need to alter it, I will.

Yes @KaiLynx!! you do totally get it!!
Ancient mixed with lost technology. Thank you for seeing the other side of the coin. You are also fair enough to recognize there isn't enough presented to make any sort of accurate judgement on what is appropriate to the setting or story. I haven't presented either, so by what basis is it being judged or compared? I don't understand

[Banditt]

My appreciation for this community is boundless. Thank you all.
@GlanceReviver gave me the PERFECT suggestion on bridging the gap and making the story flow properly and give credence to the character. So please everyone stand by, Ill make it right in the end.

Im also still struggling with my medical issues But I see why Im coming off as such a jerk and hipcrit I totally dont mean to and I apologize. Allow me to give a better explanation of my mindset regarding smut.....

Please dont think Im an ass becuase of my statements about smut. I dont want to get confused smut with erotic art. Its not the same. Where Im coming from, Ive been a professional illustrator since 1999. Im published by companies in 6 different countries. Ive struggled like every artist. I worked the comic book industry during its downfall in the late nineties and the gimmicks they used in the 2000s to save their billion dollar corporations at the expense of thousands of simple little comic book stores. I have seen the all mighty $$$ destroy everything. Ive seen artists struggle and I myself even went under when the economy tanked.

What I mean by smut is this.....

So an artist isnt getting the sales they want or need. Mostly because they are lacking proper skills. What is the first thing they do? They start throwing in a bullshit shower scene or their females get overly sexualized, whatever. Like, its a gimmick! Its not about ART and that makes me mad. Because I spent 16 years pushing myself to heighten my skill and have people appreciate my art for what it is, not get suckered by a low brow gimmick. So please do not see my topless illustration as a gimmick. It will make sense, just give it a chance and see the story. Again, nudity and expression in this form is NEW to me!!!!!! This is my first sojourn into such a venture. In my entire career, regarding nudes, I have made 1 private commission sketch, 1 professional sketch, 1 "covered" nude painting where you dont see any nipples or anything. No full-blown nudity.

But I have spent decades admiring artists who make it look easy. They are so secure in their talent. I want that too. Boris Vallejo is doing this huge painting right now a Medusa by the Sea for a collector. And its GORGEOUS and nude. Julie Bell is stunning in everything she does and her female form (and she always goes for fitness models like my fiancee) are perfect. Like.....perfect.

Im not perfect :/ But I want to get there. and I believe this project has merit! I believe it in my heart! I just need to separate the art from the gimmick. and that is why I cherish this community and the help everyone is providing.

There is my strong feeling toward smut. Same idea like a XMEN or Superman or whatever arent making high enough sales. So what do they do? Kill someone off!!! Its a bullshit gimmick! And they bring the character back 3 months later anyway Thats just like the smut card.

Erotic art is its own genre, Fantasy artists illustrate nudity in their genre. I recognize and do not demean those genres. and well, ..to be fair, Heavy Metal was all shock value and a lot of smut LOL HOWEVER some of the best artists go their start there and some GREAT ideas came from it! So meh, take it or leave it. It was pretty juvenile now and again. lol But really, some AMAZING art passed through those pages. that was legitimate

Ive seen such juvenile garbage, where there is no attempt at proper artistic skill It demeans all artists who try to create nudity in a serious appreciative light. And those of us trying to make nudity acceptable get preconceived notions slapped against us because of it Another reason for my strong feelings. and honestly Im SUPER laid back. I totally dont get strongly defense or emotional, except about this very thing. And I fear everyone now thinks Im an asshole

My fiancee loves my art, she is my biggest fan. its sort of what brought us together. And she inspires me like nothing IVe ever experienced. She makes me whole as a person and an artist She was a model before and did some nudes. So she isnt shy and isnt ashamed. She isnt like, pushing it out there. She hasnt done it in a few years and isnt looking to go back, but she is still proud of the hard work and accomplishment; as she should be. I think thats what spurred this project. I want her to still be proud of herself and hard work and give a new outlet for her to be appreciated.

I hope Im making sense. Im super sad I cannot string together the proper coherent thought to have everyone see what I want to accomplish. Like seriously depressed.

[SpavVy]

I think it's a nice drawing, you seem to work vary well with anatomy and her breasts look vary natural which is nice. My only complaint is that the gun isn't finished, haha. When it comes to nudity I think people just need to take a chill pill. There is a big difference between nude and lewd.

[bmacbride]

Didn't read 100% of the comments, but I'm gonna side mostly with @KaiLynx and say that if you're going for a design which combines the ancient and the futuristic, bare-chested is a completely valid way to go. Women and men walked around bare-chested in tons of ancient societies. However, I would also make sure the men in this society go around as uncovered as the women (unless maybe this is a society which flips the tradition of chaste/submissive women and brazen/athletic men, that might be pretty cool!)

I'd also like to add that while the anatomy here is good, and it's awesome that you're working from a live reference, in societies where women do not wear supportive garments or bind their breasts, breasts are not this perky. The women of the Himba tribe are a really good reference for completely unsupported breasts. Keep up the awesome work!

My personal opinion on nudity is: I like it. I like it in almost any context, as long as the artist strives for a naturalistic figure (hey Rob Liefeld, women DO have organs, you know!) which you totally seem to be doing, and you're doing a beautiful job. The human body is beautiful, and my favorite thing to draw is nudes. As an adult comic artist, I feel your pain lol. I've been advised before by the administrators to slap a NSFW filter on bare breasts and exposed genitalia. Even in a non-sexual context.

[GlanceReviver]

The concept of NSFW is funny to me, because the topic doesn't mean "porn" it means "Not Safe For Work." There's a lot of stuff I could get in trouble at work for looking at, or that at the least would be difficult for me to explain (haha) without it being sexual or even nude.

[Banditt]

Thank you @Savannah Dont worry, the gun will be finished also

Yes totally @bmacbride thats why I was saying about a barbarian society, like the whole Conan thing: where everyone is displaying physical vitality. I get the tribal reference thing, but the instance of this character has a purpose It will totally make sense in the end

lol @GlanceReviver even stuff I look at that has nothing to do with nudity makes people look at me like Im totally weird! So I totally understand that!

[bmacbride]

I do personally believe that the term "NSFW" should be reserved for things like graphic nudity, heavy gore, and other visually sensitive subject matter. Reason being, if every creator on Tapastic slaps a NSFW filter over anything ranging from a curse word to a graphic sex scene, the warning loses its potency, and eventually people will become desensitized to the warning, assume it's not that bad (cursing, a little blood, an alcohol reference, etc.), open it, and actually get in trouble for viewing much more sensitive content at work. NSFW means visually sensitive content that could endanger your job, not get you a few weird looks at work. In my opinion, if the worst a comic contains is cursing and some violence, that should just go in a small warning text in your comic description, not under a NSFW filter.

[GlanceReviver]

I would rather have specific tags and/or age restrictions in lieu of the use of NSFW all together, since it's only you who knows what's safe for your work environment. That ranges in different job environments and cultures.

[bmacbride]

True, or maybe something like what DA does, where you can list the content of the piece right on the filter.

[futureboundentertain]

Nudity is boring and overdone... its literally the only outfit that literally every human being on the planet owns.

It has no purpose.

[chipmalinowski]

Banditt, I think I'm the perfect person to answer because I'm a gay male nudist who appreciates Frazetta and Heavy Metal and used to study martial arts. Keep foremost in mind that you control the world in which this character lives, both it's current state and its past history; therefore, the outfit she is wearing now is vital to her survival and is "normal" for her society or at least for her. You just have to get across to the readers how she learned that this outfit is the most functional in her particular world.

The simplest explanation is that it is a stone-age civilization where women typically go topless and space-age hardware is literally falling out of the sky on rare occasions, (UFO's crash landing) and this character will grab a Kevlar shirt the instant she finds one, unless she finds a freakin' Dune force field belt first. But it lacks elegance to say that random luck chooses people's gear in this world.

This woman is clearly not concerned about snipers, gunslingers, nor archers, because chest armor is primary against those foes. So the weaponry typically used against her either easily pierces armor or bypasses armor by, perhaps, attacking the nervous system.

Also she doesn't have any social/political/religious reasons to cover up, nor is there cold weather. On the other hand, maybe her society is female dominant and males are taught to cover up lest they get molested by females. Turnabout is fair play.

If this woman gets into a lot of knife fights, she would want good thick gloves, comfortable shoes, and nothing else to slow her down. But in that case the helmet better be strapped on tight and keeping her own hair from blocking her vision. Although in our world men go bare-chested while doing intense athletics, I think women with her figure prefer a sports bra for support. The helmet and heavy weapon don't give the look of a knife-fight kind of athlete.

So I gather that she is more of a calculating distance fighter. The helmet may conduct gigawatts of cosmic rays to power the heavy rifle to generate intense X-rays and other nasty radiation to cook armies in her path, whether they wear armor or not. And a helmet with that technology might have an invisible force field to replace armor and might get sweltering hot when conducting that much raw power.

I'd love to toss around more ideas with you.
Chip

[Zanreo]

I would rather have specific tags and/or age restrictions in lieu of the use of NSFW all together, since it's only you who knows what's safe for your work environment. That ranges in different job environments and cultures.

Agree - "NSFW" in itself tells you nothing if it can refer to a lot of different things. A better idea would be flags/warnings for different categories (sex, nudity, language, violence, ect) possibly with different "levels", say "violence 1" meant a bit of blood and "violence 3" means gore.

[chipmalinowski]

Authors could adopt the TV/Movie content descriptors. The comic media isn't that different.
Here's one summary: http://www.thetvboss.org/know-the-ratings/
Here's one for multiple countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_content_rating_systems#United_States
I'm sure we could add more details if we needed.