Really interesting Youtube Video that discusses increasing importance / prominence of women in the comic book world as consumers in terms of purchasing etc

[ratique]

The guy in the video is not wrong. Most comic book shops in the US are not really run like businesses, aren't forward thinking and are run often by a certain type of comic book fan. But, especially in business, emotion and ego should come last.

I am constantly surprised how alien it is to many male comic book readers that women have a real interest in comics. But I suppose if you grow up and you are constantly told that as a comicbook reading nerd you will never find a girlfriend anyway, I would probably think the same.

Coming from Europe my experience is quite different. The comic book market was revived by women when I was in my very early teens. Our formerly tiny comic book store became so over run by mainly young girls that they moved into the center of the city, creating a three story shop, each level targeting another fandom: LARP/DND in the basement, Manga/Anime in the bottom level, American type comics in the top level.

This store has been around for ages now and I always try to stop by when I visit my home. It is a beautiful store and I always want to buy something when I go there. It is always busy (with both male and female customers)

Can you guess my surprise when I first stepped into an American comic shop? To this day I could not find something even remotely as awesome as what I was used to back home - and I live in LA, the capital of entertainment. It's a real shame.

[theladiesi]

I think it's a good idea for comic creators to familiarize themselves with business. I'm actually a business major even though my passion is in more creative works. There are unfortunately a lot of artists who think the starving artist is just how it is for creative types.

It is really easy to just get caught up in the business side of things though and end up losing creative integrity trying to chase the money. People trying to follow current trends rather than weave good lasting stories that become classics. Like in the 90s when everything was EXTREME!!! They become dated and largely forgotten except for maybe Deadpool.

Thank you for talking about the importance of character over the skin deep features. It's extremely important to remember that character and story come first in writing. Otherwise you get stale and shallow one dimensional token characters that are only defined by what they are instead of who they are.

As a woman it's sad to see characters that people say I'm suppose to identify with just because they are also women. Often times writers will forget to write the character and just focus on what they think is representation. You can easily tell these characters aren't fleshed out and are really just there to sell me a product rather than appeal to my humanity. It's important to ask, "is this a stereotype or is this a well thought out and rounded character."

It's true that things like race, gender, religion, etc are a part of all of our identities, but it's not all that encompasses our unique being. If a character is defined by what they are, instead of who they are, then it's poorly written. No one is just one thing, we are all complex and that's what really matters in the end.

[ratique]

I think it's very petty and shallow people put so much emphasis on gender/race/etc when in reality looking at it from a writers or artists standpoint, it's just one trait. In the end what demographic the characters are shouldn't matter from a storytelling perspective. I feel people who say they can't relate to a character because they aren't exactly like them are very insecure about their beliefs and how they view the world.

Ok, I have to post again just to comment on this.

Character and good character writing are important. Nobody claims otherwise. Women can relate to male characters just as well as men can relate to female characters.

But as a woman I take note when a medium has 90% male characters and the 10% that are female are shallow love interests or villains. I have seen it before. It is boring. It is bad writing, even if everything else is well done. It makes me start wondering how the author sees women, what kind of experience he had in his life with them, that makes him avoid writing about them.

Are there certain stories that make sense to have only male characters? Yes. If you have an historical retelling of a modern war, I don't expect many women to show up. If your story plays in an all boys school, I also don't need many women.

But guess what, almost everywhere else there will be a higher ratio of women around. If an author can't bring that across in their story, they need to go back to the drawing board.

[theladiesi]

Harry Potter is seen as fiction for everyone, because it has a male protagonist, but the Hunger Games are seen as "girl books". Firefly is for "everyone", but Buffy is a "girl show". And there are many more examples.

I persoanlly disagree that this is the norm. It's true that we have different experiences so it's possible that you see these properties as gendered but these fandoms (Hunger Games, Buffy, etc) have a large male audience. Just look at Rooster Teeth's RWBY. It has many male fans who deeply love the characters and story despite their gender. I've seen it first hand at conventions and even in my daily life.

At my college it isn't uncommon to see a large group of male students talking about these fandoms. RWBY in particular. My Little Pony is also a good example of this. Often when I go to events near me, like the movies or gatherings of fans, there are often more male fans than female like me. I think it's important to recognize everyone's humanity instead of brushing people off as basic and "the norm." I and many other fans really don't see these properties as being for girls. If a story is well written with a competent and interesting main character, they will attract a diverse and loving fan base.

[indagold]

Hey I'm a woman too but that has nothing to do with what I wrote and you're basically trying to take what I wrote and skew it for yourself. I'm not talking about ending diversity or any of that hogwash, i'm talking about people shouldn't judge things on race/gender/etc alone

[Aspie_Gamer]

When a man is reading a story that only features men, they might not think about how that's odd. But I will tell you that as a girl growing up it definitely bothered me a lot when I realized the stories I was reading had 1 woman for every 10 men. I mean, it's the reason why I hated Lord of the Rings as a kid even thought fantasy was a favorite genre of mine. Sure, the characters had diverse personalities and backgrounds... but since most of the main characters (especially the ones who got to go on cool adventures) were men, I felt like it was not a world where I would want to exist. A world full of magic and strange creatures... but women adventuring was a bridge too far? Don't for a second think that girls reading don't notice that kind of thing.

Okay...Going to play devil's advocate here.

Most girls and women honestly don't care if their gender isn't adequately represented and hating a series just because it doesn't pander to your whims? Isn't that kind of childish and also a sign of insecurity on your part? Your gender/race/sexual status/disability is not the be all end all of who you are as a person nor should it reflect all of whom a fictional person is either. I related to fictional characters regardless of these traits because their values spoke to me, not because they were just like me. If I don't like a series, its because they tried too hard to pander to a certain crowd and there is definitely something to be said about comics that push an agenda too hard.

i.e There was this comic I found on Tapastic that had an autistic main lead and I figured as autistic person myself, "Cool! Don't get many of those types of comics!", but unfortunately, it ended up being one of those "SJW" stories if you will where the focus wasn't on the character as a person, but how often the main lead kept telling everybody that he (or was it she? Character was also trans now that I think about it.) was autistic which growing up as an autistic person made me roll my eyes simply because of how unrealistic it sounded. , I never casually mentioned that little fact about me to my school peers nor do the people at my current place of employment know that I am on the spectrum because in real life, nobody is going to bend over backwards and accommodate you just because you are a woman/person of color/LGBT/person with mental disorder/etc and I certainly don't want to be coddled because I'm different. I got enough of that crap from girls and a few female teachers when I was in school.

And I know that might sound weird coming from the autistic guy who writes a comic about Asperger's, but the thing is, I knew I would be writing essentially an "SJW" type story if I made Susan Graham from Life of an Aspie out to be this do no wrong paragon of moral virtue or solely this quirky tomboy girl that readers see shades of for the first three chapters of the comic which is why Chapter 4 and 5 (and some of Chapter 1 too, though the guy she physically assaulted there happened sorta after the fact and wasn't made as big a deal of though Susan was told not to lash out like that again.) show more to her personality as an autistic person who as readers saw is surprisingly more human than people will give her credit for and that just because she's a girl with autism doesn't mean she's going to get a free pass when she screws up such as when she physically assaulted a popular girl (who to be fair was being a bitch to both her and a friend, but still, it wasn't right of Susan to pummel her face in either) or when she unknowingly upsets her room mate who has a form of PTSD from bullying. Real life doesn't work like that nor does a grounded comic set in a country that doesn't have the same level of recognition for autism that America does.

Anyway, while I have received comments from people who liked LoaA because they were autistic themselves or had a family member/lover who was on the spectrum, I wouldn't say that its only a comic that people with that sort of background will appreciate nor is it something that only female readers will like even though I initially pitched LoaA as a shoujo-ish web comic (its more like a Josei now imo in regards to a certain scene near the end of Chapter 5 and because of what I have planned for the future.) as I have quite a few male readers who liked what they saw whether because of the writing or because they thought my little red headed girl was cute. One male reader in fact said he liked LoaA because of all the video game references and mentions as he's a hardcore gamer irl.

[emmyengberts]

I persoanlly disagree that this is the norm. It's true that we have different experiences so it's possible that you see these properties as gendered but these fandoms (Hunger Games, Buffy, etc) have a large male audience. Just look at Rooster Teeth's RWBY. It has many male fans who deeply love the characters and story despite their gender. I've seen it first hand at conventions and even in my daily life.

Yes. Fandoms are awesome and cool. But I'm not talking fandoms.

I'm talking, a parent comes into a book store and asks for a book series for their teenage kid to read. Parents of girls are much more likely to get handed either the Hunger Games books or Harry Potter, while parents of boys are much more likely to be handed just Harry Potter. Girls get advised books with both boys and girls as main characters while boys are much more likely to be handed just the books with boy main characters.
It's not even fair, not on either of them. But there is this idea with a lot of people that male main characters are relatable for "everyone" while girl main characters aren't, they're just relatable for girls. It's stupid, stupid as hell.
And yes, it's changing, mainly because of the awesome fandoms. But in publishing, in big publishing and media companies that make our TV series and films? They still think like that, at least, too many of them do.

This does not in any way take away that we need boys and girls and non-binary and everyone else in our stories, that we need well developed and awesome characters. Not cardboard cutouts, not stereotypes, not "token" characters who are nothing more than a prop for the main characters to show how 'inclusive' they are in their friends.

We need as many different female charachers as we have male characters, and just as well written. You don't have to write either a well-developed white-straight-male or a not-as-well-developed other character, you can have well-developed black girls next to your gay guy and your transgender hockey player.
But we do have to challenge this idea that it's either/or. That you can't write a relatable story about a subject just because the main character is a black girl.
Representation and diversity in your fiction (and not a saussagefest of 9 men and 1 token woman) is important, because there are so many more beautiful people in this world, who barely ever see themselves in fiction because white-straigh-male is the "neutral" character and anything else is "added baggage". If you want to only write one type of character, that's okay, that's up to you, but maybe ask yourself why you do it? Why you're only writing one type of character when there are so many cool people out there?

[punkarsenic]

Most girls and women honestly don't care if their gender isn't adequately represented

says a man, to a woman, like he knows better...

to be a good devils advocate youll need to bring some decent statistics to that point, otherwise youve already been countered by the numbers of women who have stated that we care about this.

[ratique]

Before this goes out of hand like the other post yesterday, general warning:

Be friendly, take previous posts as an opportunity to push the discussion further and do not attack each other.

Otherwise I will close this thread.

[IdiotWithPencil]

hope it dosen't get to that again, but with these kinds of "controvertial" materials, it gets toxic really easy :C

[IdiotWithPencil]

yeah women who after they get it don't read it or support the already established and created female characters, just saying, I see a bunch celebrating the iron heart, female thor, spider gwe(love this character) but diddly squat promoting or reading, something like squirel girl, or I hate faryland (really recomend this comic), not saying that they can't ask for more women just saying why change iron man into a woman and black when we have static shock, or thunder and lighting, really under apreciated character and minority(in USA at least)

[theladiesi]

Again, I disagree with your rationality and how the industry works. Saying that the hunger games is for girls because the main character is female is like saying harry potter is for boys because the main character is a boy. Many parents will give their children these books or watch these shows with them regardless of their gender. Many of my friends, colleagues and people in the fandoms and the industry will enjoy these properties with their children regardless of their gender.

[punkarsenic]

irrelevant to my point, i want you to back up your anecdotal point with evidence before i talk to you about it

[IdiotWithPencil]

here here* lift mug of coke*

[IdiotWithPencil]

your point was that their are a bunch of women who are promoting the idea that they want diversity and representation (EI they care that the main character is female or of color), I say yeah its true but that these women will promote the change of already established characters instead of promoting new or already established female and diverse characters, if this is irrelevant to your point of having a bunch of women who disagree with the idea of (Aspie) please informe of your point so I can understand

[punkarsenic]

my point was that lots of women in this thread have stated that they care abt female representation, which negated aspiegamers point. that was my point. you are, therefor, jumping off on a tangent and making assumptions about the women posting on this thread.

[theladiesi]

It's basically saying that comic book publishers ignore well established and fleshed out minority characters such as Misty Knight or Lila Rhodes in order to push their original characters which usually sell well in their first issue but then people stop buying their later issues. You can look at the statistics for Marvel's sales by individual issue for that. This is why Marvel is constantly putting out multiple number one issues of the same character over and over again. Squirrel Girl even made a joke about this but that doesn't excuse their bad business practices.

[punkarsenic]

i know what hes saying, esi, but it was a tangent from my original point. the new character vs established character debate often ends up being a catch 22 and given it wasnt what i was taking about, its not what i want to talk about. remember what thread youre on, and what were talking about.

[punkarsenic]

this thread is devolving to me and these two it seems. im not gonna reply to either of them anymore so hopefully well get away from this tangent

[ratique]

Some conversations are turning a bit in circles now.

Let's return to discuss the original youtube video if possible.