Simple appreciation vs what "I" would do

[therosesword]

I posted a recent short film by Vogue China on my FB page. My page has a small group of people mostly from my years of working in audio drama, film. dance and theatre. There are artists and photographers too.

One of the things I've noticed over the past few years is that there has been a shift in simply appreciating something for what it is as opposed to looking at something and immediately saying what a person would change about it.

Whatever happened to simple enjoyment and appreciation of something?

I put up a lot of photography that I like on my page. I put up a photo of a young actor I like. Lighting was great etc. He was sitting with one leg to the side and another kind of crooked behind him and one of the people on my fb page decided to go off on a tear about "manspreading." I deleted the comment and issued "my page my choice blow it out your ear" announcement.

When did simple appreciation change?

If you ask me to critique your work and make comment I will do that. But if you say "I created this and I'm so proud of it." I will simply appreciate it and make no further comment.

When did things change and why can't we simply appreciate something for what it is instead of what we want to make of it.

(interestingly enough, the filmmakers on my page appreciated it, the non-filmmakers had plenty to say)

Anyway here's the video:

[DelythThomasArt]

I think over the last few years people have become overly Critical. This trend is very clear on utube with harsh deconstructing reviews, why X is crap and general cancel culture. Its a reason why I don't really make or post much fan art these days as people get really picky or judgy on the subject or the fact you enjoy it. People seem to find that odd anonymous nature of the internet as an excuse to rip on something, whether through peer pressure, trollishness or distain. As to them there's not much if any risk in doing so.

[darthmongoose]

I'm a little confused by the scenario here... So you posted a video that you didn't create on your facebook because you thought it was a cool video, and people on your Facebook page, which comprises of a lot of people who work in the field of making videos and similar media, left comments that weren't just "wow, that's cool, thank you for sharing it" and so you're upset?
Because to me, maybe deeper discussion on the craft of creating things sounds like how those kinds of friends with a deep interest in that subject would bond and what they enjoy doing. They're presumably passionate about film. If they didn't say "wow, this is absolute garbage, why did you share it?" I'm not sure what the problem is. In my opinion, people should be critical of the media they consume and discuss it in a polite, constructively critical way instead of just unquestioningly and passively absorbing it all.

[therosesword]

I think over the last few years people have become overly Critical.

So true. I feel the same way. People confuse the words "critique" and "criticize." They are two very different terms. What they end up doing quite often is becoming "criticasters"... criticism for the sake of criticizing.

I find sometimes when people say "well, I would do blah blah blah" I tell them, "then do it." Don't tell the artist how to change their work to make it yours... go and do your own.

What's funny (in an acerbic way) is that they get their panties in a bunch when someome fires back at them.

Mostly it's just unfortunate. I've seen some truly wonderful fan art and if I'm in a position to remark I usually say so. For the stuff that hasn't pleased me I simply keep my mouth shut.

[therosesword]

(interestingly enough, the filmmakers on my page appreciated it, the non-filmmakers had plenty to say)

I think you missed that part (see quote).

The filmmakers all had a great discussion about the lighting and the actors and the general feel etc. All the art types were full on discussion and it was great.

Also, I'm not upset. I'm merely remarking on the fact that the art of appreciation seems to have diminished over the years. Be it film, art or even a simple flower arrangement. But then, there is that old joke "everyone's a critic."

[darthmongoose]

Ah, sorry, the post's structure was a little confusing due to the change of subject in the middle to being about a photograph.

I think criticising art and media used to be an activity reserved for academics, and that platforms like youtube have democratised a lot of the concepts and terminology of critical theory. While it can be pretty annoying when someone has been watching too much "Extra Credits" and tries to school me, somebody with an MA in Games Design, on the concept of Ludonarrative Dissonance, overall, I lean towards the opinion that a more critically literate populace can be a good thing.

[Dysis]

Forget about them. I watched till the end and enjoyed it.

[therosesword]

Sorry about that jump in the middle.

I have no problem with well thought critiquing, I've done my share theatrically (albeit small time) and I love it when someone well qualified weighs into a discussion and at the same time someone with no qualifications except love of the art form brings up something someone hadn't thought of because of their unique way of looking at it.

But I think at some point there seems to be a disconnect from sitting quietly and simply appreciating something. From the sun on your face to a pretty melody. Just sitting quietly in the moment and enjoying it without feeling that we have to jump up and deconstruct something and find a way to change it. That all seems too ego driven for me.

A photographer friend of mine one day held up a dandelion ready to get blown to the wind. He asked me what I'd change about it. Once we got past the jokes about whose lawn it was headed for he said.. what would you change about it? I said nothing. He said you can appreciate it for what it is now, at this stage of its life, in this shape? You feel no need to change it?

I agreed. I felt no need to change it.

He just smiled and said I was learning.

I keep learning. And I keep trying to look at what is in front of me as it exists, not how I would like it to exist. (of course this doesn't mean politics or the human condition etc. that's a whole different mindset)

[therosesword]

Forget about them. I watched till the end and enjoyed it.

Hard to believe the actress is just shy of 50!

[Dysis]

She looks so young!

[vothnthorvaldson]

Criticizing (constructively) something IS appreciation in my opinion. You care enough to take the time to analyze. This is real appreciation, maybe of a different nature than simply enjoying without asking oneself questions, but not of a lower quality. The reason some people would express their analysis instead of keeping it for them is to exchange with others. Not a bad thing in any way. When it is not even the interlocutor's work, I don't see the problem.

Now, in this specific case I don't know whether it was constructive (I personally don't see how it would be, it seems a futile and stupid complain but I've not read the exact messages so I can't know) and/or whether it was to start discussion.

However what I know is that I would never follow someone who states 'my page, my choice', because it is discouraging discussion and telling me this is not going to be a place for me.

So I suppose all depends whether someone wants discussion or not.
I think if the account is thought as a gallery, only for displaying works of art but not commenting them, then it would be better to choose a platform that is not a social media or that allows to disable comments.

[therosesword]

You care enough to take the time to analyze.

Why does something have to be analyzed? Why can't you simply look at something and enjoy it? For me it's enough to respond to it on an emotional level, on the feeling it gives me; good or bad.

But that's not necessarily my point... and I've obviously not done a good job making my point: which is basically, why do people feel that have to tear everything down.

However what I know is that I would never follow someone who states 'my page, my choice', because it is discouraging discussion and telling me this is not going to be a place for me.

I put up a series of photos every day for the romance writers on my page, it's an "in" joke if you will. amongst us. And someone (not in that group) telling me that I have to take a photo off of my page because she doesn't like it doesn't work. my page, my content, no one should dictate to anyone what they can or cannot put on their page. If she doesn't like it scroll by or unfriend, I'm good with either one. Of course, you don't know the full story behind the picture or the reason for it etc. These photos are up simply as prompts and not for "discussion" it's facebook. Of course there is no way that you can know this, Hope that clears that part up for you.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I personally can't appreciate something if I don't analyze it. Or, it has to be excessively complicated and entirely out of my abilities to understand (eg. My first creative interest is music and the only one I can enjoy without analyzing it would be some works of modern/contemporary classical such as most of the New Conplexity movement. Maybe some experimental jazz too. And that's all. If I'm asked to not analyze music, then I don't enjoy it anymore. I'm far from being the only one. Different people have different way to appreciate things.

Now asking you to remove stuff they don't like is unacceptable and incredibly entitled.
But you made it sound (and somewhat still do, in your last message) like your problem is wider than that, pretty much why can't people just enjoy and shut up. So I say, yes they can, but they miss opportunities of interesting discussions. However, some peopke cannot enjoy if they don't analyze, at least in their head.

Also I really think you should warn people you don't want to discuss. Facebook is for socializing, it's crazy to me to say that by default it is not for discussion.

[therosesword]

Also I really think you should warn people you don't want to discuss. Facebook is for socializing, it's crazy to me to say that by default it is not for discussion.

The woman in question for that photo has been on my page for over a year, she knows they're not meant for her or for discussion they're just "eye candy" and she knows there's really never a discussion. Ummm, how far into this do you need an explanation? Names? Dates? Times? I know, I'm being facetious. But really, you're fixating.

If you have the time, I have a little story about analyzing things...

I have a lot.. a LOT of artwork. I buy it all the time. When I have or don't have money I still buy.

One time when I had very little cash I bought a painting from a young artist at his kiosk. I couldn't afford a full payment so I would drop off a little bit every week until it was paid off and he would display it with a "sold" sign. Good advertising for him.

When I paid him I would also bring him a coffee and we would discuss art. I have three professional artists in my family and every family member has all been long time collectors.

One day a woman walks by with a male friend and she spots my painting. It's of four nuns playing badminton with another nun keeping score and others watching. This woman declares loudly that she has taken an art analysis class and goes on to tell the man she is with what the painting means. The nuns, of course, are the restrictive church and the shuttlecock is the abortion issue. The nun keeping score is keeping records and one nun in the convent door is hiding a secret.

then the woman moves on. We sip our coffee a moment and I ask the artist... so, what does the painting mean.

He replies: It means I was driving past a convent and four nuns were playing badminton and I thought it would make a happy painting.

another shorter story: had a friend recently sell a large abstract for a good price. asked her what the meaning of the painting was. She said she wanted to get rid of the *** large canvas and use up some colors she rarely uses so she just slathered them on the canvas and slapped a price on it. I have to admit, though, it was a really pretty painting.

[vothnthorvaldson]

You're just taking example of very personal analyses made by know-it-all, entitled and pushy people.
This does not prove anything about analysis.
I like to discuss, you admittedly don't.
I'm not sure there is much more to say.

[therosesword]

I like to discuss, you admittedly don't.

it depends on the discussion.

We're actually having a very nice discussion on my FB page right now about the loss of the art of appreciation for what is and not what someone wants something to be. Which is what this was supposed to be but got sidetracked.

Have a great day!

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I put up a lot of photography that I like on my page. I put up a photo of a young actor I like. Lighting was great etc. He was sitting with one leg to the side and another kind of crooked behind him and one of the people on my fb page decided to go off on a tear about "manspreading."

...I think that's less of a 'critique' and more 'someone with a hangup looking for an excuse to vent about it'. =/

And those people exist (and should probably be ignored), but they're not the same as people who want to analyze and ACTUALLY critique art.
There are people who just want to attack/complain, and there are people who genuinely want to think about works of art and/or suggest ways to make them better. Just because people in the first group are annoying doesn't mean people in the second group should be lumped in with them so they can all be discouraged from interacting entirely. Like...there's nothing wrong with analysis in and of itself. ^^;

I do understand the frustration behind some people thinking that all art has to have a hidden message/theme, or every critique should include a suggestion for improvement, but I consider those more as pitfalls of modern art education than a new way of thinking for the general populace.

You'll probably run into more people like that in 'high art' spaces, but from what I can see the rest of the internet/world doesn't really care. People are more than happy to just say 'cool <3' and run, or suggest something in a genuine effort to help you, and not just to prove that they can think better than you.

TL;DR, I don't know if this 'change' is as widespread as you make it sound, but even if it is, spreading the message that people should just 'appreciate' art instead of thinking about it is not the answer.

[therosesword]

critique should include a suggestion for improvement,

This gets problematic if the piece, no matter what it is, is a completed piece. I can see suggestions for works in progress but when (and I realize this is me) a piece of anything is completed and done, stating that it would be better if it was in yellow for a painting or the violin should be a viola in a music piece is all moot. The piece is done.

To me if a piece is done and you're doing nothing more than observing it, why discuss what should have been. What "should" have been, isn't. It doesn't exist. Correction, it exists in the mind of the person who won't accept what it is front of them.

It's like the fans that argue with writers and artists and vocalists that they have to do something differently (usually their way). Well, no. Here is what is and it is complete.

Why look at a red rose and wish it was pink?

Why look at a calico cat and wish it was white with two different color eyes?

I realize that's simplistic but I've never understood looking at something that someone has created (and completed) and saying you think it would be better if... whatever. (only exception is if it's really good and you wish it could last longer, in which case... hit replay or read it over)

should just 'appreciate' art instead of thinking about it is not the answer.

I'm not saying they shouldn't think about it at. all great art, theatre, writing etc. should make you think. what bothers me is when they look at something and discount it in favor of what they think it should be as if what is in front of them is worthless without their input.

Which is not to say I don't look at some things and wish they were different, someday maybe I'll go to the theatre and Hamlet will live.

Until then, I accept the play for what it is.

[ar-ninetysix]

Hm... I kinda agree to an extent about enjoying something at face-value. As is the case with most media I consume, that's generally the way I like to experience something for the first time. Just turn off the brain and let your senses and emotions receive stuff how they will lol I do think it's a valuable approach to taking in content even if it's.. somewhat monkey-brained?? (Damn it, I know there's a better way to put it, I just can't be bothered lmao).

Analysis is only part of the experience for me upon giving said content future revisits. Part of the overall enjoyment is understanding why I experienced the enjoyment to begin with, and that's what pushes me to appreciate stuff further. Sometimes you'll find something that you liked and go back to find that it's not that great.. And like, it sucks when that happens, but there's some good to be taken out of that as well. It's for that reason that I can understand why some people take this approach for the first viewing or listen.

But people who just go headfirst and start suggesting things they'd do based on the first viewing or listen?? Why??? I understand that it's easy to be detached from the whole production process, but you gotta realize there's at least one person who had to put in the effort to make it presentable for you, so like could you not?

[therosesword]

But people who just go headfirst and start suggesting things they'd do based on the first viewing or listen?? Why??? I understand that it's easy to be detached from the whole production process, but you gotta realize there's at least one person who had to put in the effort to make it presentable for you, so like could you not?

I actually wonder if they enjoy it at all or they're too busy thinking of what they're going to say about it rather than actually seeing it. It's kind of like watching those first time listening reviewers on youtube where they stop what's playing and start asking questions. If someone's voice or the music blows them away and they stop to get their breath, okay. But they stop a video and say things like "why are they doing that? What do you suppose that lyric means?" ???? duhhh, watch the darn video and maybe you'll learn something.

I usually watch something (or read) three or for times. 1st time for simple enjoyment and emotional impact. Second time a little bit of that emotional but maybe a little more to catch things I missed the first time. And then each time more information as to how it was put together, what made me like it, etc. First time, though, always for the simple enjoyment of appreciating someone else's art.

And frankly, if something is already completed, saying things should have been done differently is kind of a moot point.