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Nov 2019

Can anyone help? Can anyone offer words of advice, or encouragement, or maybe just comfort...?

I'm so confused...like, more than usual. 6___6 But basically the gist of what I understand is:

Option A: Make content marked exclusively for adults to consume. But if the powers that be (?) decide that your content attracts children, it doesn't matter what you marked it; you're in trouble.
Option B: Make content marked for kids to consume. You will now earn zero money.
Option C: Do nothing...and hope nothing bad happens...?

This is just from the perspective of YouTubers, by the way...but this isn't a YT policy; this is apparently a federal thing, which means that other media companies that operate in the U.S. will start enacting similar policies, won't they? That doesn't sound good. :[

First of all, as many have said, it (kinda ironically) kills any incentive to create kid-friendly stuff. Who in America is going to go to the trouble to make family-friendly content if they're just barely allowed to profit from it?? And those who do will find themselves suddenly unable to afford to continue.

Secondly, people like myself who enjoy looking at kid stuff from an adult's perspective, or just using traditionally kid-oriented mediums (ANIMATION, GAMING) to tell deeper, more mature stories...well, we're all just SOL. We can mark our stuff for kids, but it's not, so unless we censor ourselves we're in trouble. We can mark our stuff for adults, but because 'kids can be attracted' we're still in trouble. How do we win...?!

I mean, that gray area is where I live...like, y'know how Madoka Magica looks like a cute magical girl anime when it's actually a dark tale filled with suffering and sacrifice and moral quandaries?? That's basically my entire mode of storytelling. If you re-design it so that it looks 'more adult', it's not the same. If you take out all the suffering, it's not the same. It works because it is exactly the way it is: a juxtaposition of two opposing concepts. That's a large part of the reason why it's good.

I just...I feel like my whole personality has just been made illegal. It sounds like an overreaction, but...I mean, what would happen if large swaths of the webscape introduced these kinds of policies? If creating what I love means risking thousands of dollars in fines, then I can't afford it. I just can't. I'd just have to go back to doodling in notebooks and dreaming of getting picked up by a physical publishing company, like I did when I was 12. There goes basically everything I've done for my entire young adult life...

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There are 59 replies with an estimated read time of 12 minutes.

COPPA is indeed a federal law. However really unless you intend to work heavily on Youtube its not a huge deal. It has been in place for awhile just only recently is being enforced. It deals with companies collecting information for children under 13 in order to specifically target advertisements to them.

I've made my yt private but I'm still on dailymotion. I've heard from other creators that inappropriate stuff were marked as for kids by yt because it's animated. The youtubers who are in the clear and know they won't be affected just keep saying that everyone else are just throwing tantrums because they're not popular enough. They don't understand the huge grey area and that it's not fair to punish everyone instead of those who broke the rules. Kids aren't allowed on yt but parents let them or they lie on their accounts .yt were knowingly gathering data. youtubers weren't and can't but now we have to play a guessing game because we are somehow responsible for their actions.it's ridiculous.

except for the part where youtubers can get fined for not labeling their vids correctly according to yt or the ftc, and that this could spread to the rest of the internet...

This is mainly YT throwing creators under the bus yet again. The reason they are even being looked into by the FTC is for their Kid's YT version.

no,it's cause they were making yt kid friendly, not just the kids app.That's why all yt is affected

The reason they are going to kid friendly on the main site is their own doing yet again due to bending over for advertisers. The ad companies themselves are so afraid of cancel culture they enforce this environment that everything must be family friendly for their brands. So bending to the whims of corporations they have made a more family friendly environment but those that choose to go without being monetized and use Patreon and other crowdfunding sources still keep mature content on so YT made the Kids version after the Elsa gate controversy. And this brought the FTC's attention into play.

For more info read about it all here:

http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm3

tl;dr: Sites need to adjust how they gather and use data provided by people under the age of 13.

It's going to affect advertising and the algorithm that generates the suggest vids. (Which it should, their existing algorithm is trash.) It's because they illegally gathered information about kids viewing data.

I work for a kids entertainment company, so I've totally been researching this stuff. Here's a rundown.

Basically, Youtube creators are mostly doing nothing wrong (but some of them are). Youtube is doing a lot wrong, and they're trying to put the responsibility onto the creators.

So basically... COPPA means that companies shouldn't collect data on kids, like their name, address etc. There are also rules that kids shouldn't be able to private message or post comments or otherwise given opportunities to share details like their real name, address or phone number. If kids DO share this information, even if they do it by blatantly flaunting every rule and say, drawing a picture in an inbuilt oekaki system and carefully concealing their phone number in the picture (you may laugh, but this is a thing that happens on Popjam, for reals. Anyone who has or works with kids knows that kids are not always sweet little darlings, they can be manipulative and cunning little :poop: s), it's on the company, not on the kid that did it.

So... where does Youtube come in? Okay, so... to have a "grown up" (standard) Youtube account, you need an email, and youtube needs to collect the data of your email address. For that to be legal, the person must typically be 13+ years old (though this actually varies by country), which is seen as old enough to have the understanding to agree to give away that data and what it means to do so (kinda like getting your first proper bank account or doing a part time job, also things in many countries you can do at 13).
So for younger kids, Youtube made... Youtube Kids! ...Which kids over age like six don't want to go on... because it's called "Youtube Kids" (let's face it, if you were eight, you would probably see yourself as being grown up enough for proper youtube and watching the kind of thing your older siblings watch, just like when I was eight I wanted to listen to Alanis Morisette like my cool teenage big sister, not like... nursary rhymes or whatever).
So since the actual children who aren't pre-school age are on standard Youtube, companies like Lego and Cartoon Network have set themselves up on standard Youtube where the audience is... and here comes the problem.

So, Youtube has a bunch of people on their platform making content that is blatantly meant for kids, because everyone knows kids are using it, even though they're not supposed to be using it. Is that bad? Well, for Youtube... yes, yes it is. COPPA violations come at about $40,000 a pop, and usually if a person is violating COPPA, it's not just once. Companies have already incurred millions of dollars in fines just for things like not paying enough attention to what data their third party analytics software has been collecting.
If somebody can prove that Youtube is knowingly hosting content intended for kids under 13 on their platform, and has not made every possible effort to stop this happening, the amount that Youtube could be sued is... potentially astronomical. :grimacing:

So their first action was to say to the bigger creators like Lego, "Okay no no no, if you're posting videos on normal youtube, they can't be for kids! We'll have to kick you off the platform if you do that!" to which those creators responded, "Ohhh haha noooo we're not making this for kids!", and so you get things like the Lego channel never addressing the audience like "hey kids!", never featuring any children in videos, never speaking about lego as a children's toy except in a context like "this would be a great present for your child, adult viewer!" ...basically, all the channels making kids content pretend that they genuinely believe that they, the Lego/Cartoon Network/Roblox channel are making content intended entirely for an adult audience.
But now it seems like that isn't enough any more, because it's so blatantly transparent. So Youtube now wants creators to say on their videos "THIS IS NOT FOR CHILDREN, IF YOU ARE A CHILD, STOP WATCHING THIS!" to put the onus onto the people making content because of their complete lack of ability to stop kids from being attracted to their platform, making illegal accounts and ignoring the alternative provided because it's just so uncool to older children.

If you don't do it, you shouldn't be the one to incur a COPPA violation, but it's possible Youtube could turf you off their platform for encouraging kids to their platform so that Youtube might incur one.

If it helps any, Neopets has been COPPA compliant for years; and though their content and user created content was HEAVILY regulated and limiting for many years, over time they just stopped caring as it was obvious they didn't have to avert children's eyes to anything remotely romantic or dramatic and they never got fined. However, Neopets doesn't use Youtube's broken ass algorithm that'll waggle its finger and make you a kids' channel even if your content isn't for kids(you actually get slapped into under-13 site restrictions if you admit you lied about your age on Neopets even jokingly), so yeah I'd be a little afraid ESPECIALLY if this goes into other websites.

Thanks for the super-informative reply! Although...I mean, if all that is the case, you'd really think YouTube would be leading the charge in trying to protest these ridiculous regulations, instead of caving to them...it sounds like they're being forced to choose between getting sued or basically self-destructing.

But then, I've heard YT isn't exactly profitable, so maybe they don't have any other options... =/

Its also really telling that Youtube just recently (in the last couple days) changed policy to pass the blame on to creators. It is tiring to see YT destroying creators for the companies mistakes.

They sadly seem to be doing it often for every single little setback and flack youtube gets. I understand that the content on Youtube is (mostly) made by creators, but there are a lot of people who are using the platform as they should and not creating hateful content, but are punished severely or impacted negatively for things that are REALLY beyond their control.

It kinda makes me wanna avoid youtube. I don't do anything art related on youtube, but my husband and I do Warhammer 40k battle reports and he posts them on youtube. We're small time schmucks not making money at all. Still worries me.

What more, from what I understand, if you mark your content "For kids", even if you didn't plan on monetizing, your videos won't have comments enabled, you won't be able to use the community posts, people won't be notified of said videos and it might not even be searchable. So like what's the point of uploading anymore? Art vids and anything in the gray area could potentially disappear altogether.

Yup. I would like to say that youtube is shooting itself in the foot...

BUT I am not sure of other video posting alternatives that have the same platform base and globally known name. Perhaps Twitch? For art streaming there is Picarto, but I am not sure. I admit that I am unfamiliar with the impact of COPPA.

Pretty dumb, You make your content for adults, "swearing, or horror(especially horror), nah demonetized think of the children. Now you make your stuff for kids(or some can think its for kids) and nah you cant do that, think of the kids. Youtube kids is a thing you know...this just make youtube nonviable to everyone, except big companies who will never take the hard hit(see so many sexualised music vids). Mixture was competition for twitch and the only competition for youtube I can see is bitchute, but most of the content there is just far-right political videos.

If the FTC wants to be vague then I played along with them. I labeled everything...and I mean everything I have up for gaming as made for kids including my Resident Evil 7 let's plays because....well screw the system.

Well the biggest issue is creators don't get to decide what content is "made for kids," and YouTube doesn't get to decide, the FTC does.
So just for example, a video discussing how Steven Universe depicts metal illness and abuse is obviously not made for kids... but that video is about a kids' show, it probably has characters from that show in the thumbnail, so the FTC can look at the thumbnail and go "for kids."
So I think they're going to end up with a lot of content marked (not by the creators) as "made for kids" that's full of mature themes and it's going to be another Elsagate.
Also, while it's going to hurt established children's content creators, it's going to make it pretty much impossible to grow a children's channel.

Edit: one more additional prediction, this is probably going to disproportionately affect female creators.

Apparently adults should only like the color grey, the news, and working office jobs.

I'm concerned about what happens on other sites as well. There's only news about how it'll affect YouTube. Kids are on Instagram, FB, etc. too. Some talk about jumping ship to Vimeo, Daily Motion, and Twitch and I've even dabbled in the idea of starting a video sharing site for artists. But since this is a law thing, nowhere's safe.

I'm also a bit iffy on signing petitions. I heard they're generally ignored.

Children Channels will be impossible all around. They are taking 60-90% of revnue away as well on top of the other restrictions. They even said gaming channels will be considered under the "for kids" investigations.

What worries me the most is that since this is a government thing, it might spread across all the internet, including Twitch, Dailymotion, etc. and affect comics app, even of they are tagged mature/ pg13, because, ya know, if it has colorful drawings, it must be for kids

Dailymotion has their head office in Paris, it'll be difficult to get them to comply. They will probably still try.
Youtubers can't gather data and the ftc know this, it's becoming clearer that they are interested in making money and if this doesn't work they'll just find another excuse. Even workers inside the ftc who pointed out that they can't legally do this have been silenced on social media. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually try using sneezing while watching yt as an excuse to be fined.

Yes! This will be awesome for companies like Disney, tho, who can pay the fines without major worries. As you said, they just want the money.

When I saw the news about the changes and how ridiculously harsh they are, my first thought was, "I'd be amazed if Disney + and Netflix, or traditional TV channels didn't make a big push for this behind the scenes."
Because of course, subscription services like theirs want... well, subs! And their main competitor is Youtube, which in a huge number of non English speaking countries is the number 1 video platform by a wide margin, and in English speaking ones is just behind Netflix. How do you defeat Youtube? Make it impossible for creators, or even the platform to profit from children's content there, since Youtube relies on ads, so creators stop making content for that platform, so parents sub to Netflix or go back to oldskool TV.

What I predict will happen is Youtube will start pushing their subscription service more, and commissioning content for their children's platform or striking deals with channels like Cartoon Network etc. Basically adult Youtube will stay more or less the same, but with something more like Netflix attached to it for kids.

Most people love big brands like Disney. YT isn't taking away from that, the difference is price. People who aren't watching tv, do so for 3 main reasons. 1 price, can't afford it, especially multiple channel packages or streaming services. yt is free and has a premium but not needed to watch. I've never had a nexflix account because they don't allow me to see what's available in my country and I know we have a lot of licencing issues. I usually don't get to watch a movie until it shows on tv because we have a small renting window and after you can only buy so if you missed the time between purchase - rent - purchase again you're stuck waiting for it to either be rent-able again or price drops by which time they show it on tv in 2 languages. 2 schedule issues, people want to watch when they want not when they're told to. we have limited replay times if that works at all. I know it's different in other countries. 3. content availability, a lot of the time my fav shows aren't available, sometimes due to licencing issues and when they do pick up again they're seasons apart and not advertised so you didn't know it was airing again. American Shows get cancelled because rating drops in usa despite gaining popularity in the rest of the world. posting on yt means no broadcast fees, which means more money for productions. It's not that I don't think they're meddling, they probably are it's that I don't see it as a good move. Pushing out other creators won't drive more people to watch tv or tv yt channels. It'll just make less people watch because they're not fixing the main problems. More people may be able to watch their favs shows if it's not blocked in their area. But the reason people like yt will just send them looking for it on other platforms thus leading to yt dying out.

Even if this is a government thing this isn't time to start spreading fear and panic. This kind of thing happened in the late 90's early 2000's with Napster and Limewire. At first the big labels went after the people downloading off P2P platforms but when they started suing children and grandparents that didn't even understand what those platforms truly were judges began to refuse to follow through and dismissed cases. The public outcry was also so loud it forced the lawsuits to be laid on the platforms instead.

It is important right now to do what you must to protect yourself on youtube because the FTC was happy enough going after the platform however....the FTC now coming after the content creators as well is Google's fault! This is part of the settlement between YT/Google and the FTC that they can go after the content creators.

If anyone is truly worried then now is the time to go on the FTC website and voice your opinion civilly on the new COPPA revisions. In honesty I think like others that the revisions are too aggressive. And also remember that these revisions happen every ten years so keep up on the laws as well. There is also a petition:

COPPA Comments submissions are extended until Dec 9 so keep that in mind:

https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FTC-2019-0054-00011

Change.org petition:

J House Law this is a youtuber with family content that also has a law degree and background. When this began he went to Youtube and the FTC to get a better understanding of what is going on and is now lobbying for the rights of content creators.

This kinda makes me feel better, but at the same time...as you described in that situation, someone has to be the sacrificial lamb. And a lot of competent people are going to get targeted by this unjust law before we get to the people who 'didn't know any better'. A lot of things are going to get shut down and destroyed while we wait; things that can't just be gotten back as soon as it's 'safe to come out'. And the longer it takes, the more irreversible the damage will be.

All that is to say, if a little pre-emptive fear and panic and overreaction could contribute even a little to making this not happen in the first place, I'm all for it.

Panicking and over reacting never helps in the long run. In fact this whole thing began with the FTC over reacting to the internet as a whole. They don't understand it and how things work and how fast things change on this landscape. Thing is just be calm and direct your concerns to the FTC because they are reading all comments.

When the revisions that helped create this situation happened in 2013 they received only 99 comments in total so they were like okay...no one is passionately opposed to these regulations so we must be doing the right thing! They have so far received over 104,000 comments on the revisions. If you want to help stop these regulations from coming into full effect because right now they are pending while the FTC reviews comments and makes a final decision then comment against them.

I mean...that's basically what I meant by overreacting. I didn't mean to start rioting in the streets and throwing bricks at the Google office or anything...

Why did they receive only 99 comments initially? Probably because people figured (when the internet was much smaller, by the way) that it didn't matter and didn't care. Passion, even to the extent of fear at times, is what incites change.

Maybe we should all remain calm and go through channels. Maybe this isn't something that everyone and their mom should be making hysterical 'Youtube is about to die' videos about...but I doubt the number of comments would have passed the 6-digit threshold without that level of concern.

Well it is a concerning situation and making videos and talking about the situation and making people aware that there are avenues to stop these regulations is healthy. It will help if people talk about it and the solution but I don't think this is going to be the death of Youtube. They will always find a way to weasel out of the situation. I don't think this will be the end of the internet as a whole either. I think and want to believe that there is enough people out there that will voice their opinions at the FTC and stop these overreaching regulations. As far as other platforms it is not time to start panicking. Like I mentioned earlier the FTC going after creators is part of Google's settlement with the FTC.

I think it’s gonna be less the “the death of YouTube” and more the death of certain creators. mostly as usual small channels. Video game channels will prob suffer but I think the people who are gonna suffer the most are animators whom have already been suffocating from the YouTube algorithm for years.

Just a shout out from an animator I like.

The major problem is you want to make money if you go to YouTube- you can’t make money with ads unless your content is ad friendly, however if your TOO friendly you are considered child content and get a fine. Lots of adults seem to have this strange understanding that if it’s animated it’s for kids, so I’m pretty sure the biggest thing that will come of this is that the already dying animation community on YouTube might have to crawl back to the one place that they seem to be welcomed on the internet, newgrounds.

What I'm scared about is that people don't understand that this is not a youtube issue, and treat it as "well, it's youtubers problem". You are going to be fined just as easily on the Newgrounds! It doesn't matter on what site do you reside! It's not the company that owns the site that will be inspecting you, it will be a government agency! You might not get your income annihilated by the draconian rules that all but shadowban your content, but there still might be a 42k fine with your name written on it!

It is a youtube problem...right now. The reason this is happening is because Google has been ignoring COPPA rules for years and it has only recently caught up with them. The fact that creators are being held responsible now is not something the FTC had originally intended but it was made a part of the settlement with Google. Again if you are concerned then join up with everyone else and comment to the FTC and petition the new revisions before Dec 9th when the comment portion of the inquire ends and a final decision is made.

I'm not an US citizen, sadly. So as with all damaging global initiatives, like SOPA, article 13, etc, I can do nothing but sit and helplessly watch how the things will turn out. On the plus side I don't think that FTC can fine me? I mean, what can they do if I just ignore them?

Unfortunately...it still effects you if you post on Youtube. YT is American based so the FTC can come after you since you have published videos with an American company.

Bless Jim "The Kids Don't Even Like me!" Sterling Son.... I was actually just thinking about that video recently as well, funnily enough.