Straight girls writing BL/Straight guys writing GL

[avalonmao]

tbh IDK if I should weigh in on this but i butt the fuck in on all different sorts of topics so please drag me lol
most of my charas in my webcomic are non straight/cis, so trying to get same gender(?idk) relationships realistically...healthy is important because at the end of the day the person who reads your work is who's going to be affected. They're real, solid human beings, not fictional characters and imaginary stories you put on the internet.
one of the reasons why realism would be important though is because when you get too far away from reality its like you start making a caritcature of a person. like i mean i get that you have your artistic license or something like that but look....your imagination is informed by your worldview which is informed by many harmful tropes. like do what you will but using weird ass tropes like east asians with mustard yellow skin and floss-thick eyes is super unattractive, regardless of well meaning.
that said ~~realism~~ isn't everything. i guess....just make sure you aren't contributing to anything to stupid. im sure im doing a ton of that arleady though tbh
(also might i add...it looks like a lot of gl/bl has rapey troupes. it's disturbing to read, especially if one of your readers has been a victim of such bad things so...i guess be consciencious of that -_-)

[scythe]

I get that. It's frustrating as hell when something you identify with is continuously misrepresented in media. I'm a dad, so I have to put up with the constant Homer Simpson/Peter Griffin fumbling loser trope, which is insidious because it's actually often written really well. I secretly pine for characters like Atticus Finch and enjoy shows like Modern Family for incorporating a multitude of different types of fathers.

But like I said, I think it all really just comes down to bad writing, and as long as there's a market out there of horny 14 year olds who apparently think being gay is just smashing two half naked dudes together whenever possible, I don't see this trend going away.

But what can we as readers who yearn for honest characters and storylines do about this state of affairs? Not much else but ignore it I think. Laugh at it, point out how ridiculous it is. As writers though, we can promote and write better stories in an attempt to elevate the medium as a whole.

[scythe]

AMEN!

Or should I say GAYMEN? Either way, I like the way you think.

[GesuGesu]

Well, I don't want to put my gender or orientation out there, because I don't feel like it has much to do with what I like or write.

I know very well though, that I write my BLs with full intention to be unrealistic and nothing but fun. I enjoy good BL with a bit more realism, such as knowing to use proper lube and preparation, having a proper relationship, understanding that rape is bad.. etc. but I also enjoy the dumbed-down "made by women for women" BL too.

I just don't want to write something that has MxM or LGBT just to be PC and not because I want to for the sake of telling a story.

[hushicho]

Not to mention that the subculture encourages misogyny (looking at you, supernatural fandom) and the stories that the creators write often make women the b****y, sl***y ex or something. And oh my god, not to mention all of the bisexual and pansexual erasure that goes hand in hand with the "no way could he have ever liked that b****" stuff, too!

I'm definitely not into people being phobic -- and I did mention phobic, not specifically bigoted against gay guys, or lesbians, or whatever else, in my original post. Mostly I was writing from my own perspective, because that's what I know, and I didn't want to speak for someone with a different experience; but we do, regardless, need more representation, more diversity, and less gatekeeping, less shaming, and less making people scared to even tell a story they want to tell.

I don't think that the subculture, if it can even be called that, encourages misogyny or any other intolerance. Some people will do it, and they'll do that anyway, regardless of what they write. As a fan (ish) of Supernatural, I can also say that the writers of the show are far more guilty of seeming misogyny towards supporting characters than the fandom -- and there's a vast disconnect between the production crew and the fandom -- though I'm not exactly a fan of the fandom either. I just enjoyed the show for a while and moved on with my life. But frankly, when you have gay guys as your main characters, your ideal foil/antagonist/punctuation will be a character different from them that may not understand them. It's not exactly an uncommon experience for gay men to come to a realization they're not straight, and it's very common for their girlfriends or wives to be less than understanding; this can present a deeper, more profound opportunity for development of a character, but that has to be up to the writer. And as for slutty, well...a lot of gay guys like women who are in control of their sexuality and sexual identity. I always liked sluts. Up with sluts! And bitchy? There's an art form to throwing shade. There's a reason why so many of us loved Jessica Lange and Frances Conroy trading barbs on American Horror Story.

And speaking personally, I'd rather not bring "cis" and related into it; that's another issue for another conversation and we're just dividing and subdividing. Keeping it simple enough and straightforward enough, BL and GL is helpful more than it's not, and more times than not is written by people who like it and want to tell their story. Erasure is a popular media problem, but it won't be helped by making people afraid to write more stories.

[ArhyaM]

I'm going to write this from my opinion, since this is the point of this post. I started reading the first comments and I felt really guilty of what I'm doing, for the simple reason that I'm just a straight girl making a comic which includes some BL.
But I felt guilty and somehow attacked by the idea of "a horny girl putting two boys together for the sake of self-pleasure". (I want to point that I'm not writting it with anger or any bad intention) In my case I included a gay couple because I felt they were perfect for each other, the way they are, how they interact and all those things that -in my opinion- makes two people become a couple. What I'm trying to say is that not all the LGTB stories written by straight people are terrible or made by just horny authors and not all the stories written by this comunity are great. It's just a matter of representation and especially: intention.

And I completely agree with @hushicho here, people should be free to express what they feel, as long as it does not have bad intentions. Art and creativity are about expression and freedom, showing what's on your mind and heart and it shouldn't be reason to blame just because they want to draw two horny guys. There'll be always a perfect story for anyone, and that's what I think is the best thing of places like Tapastic: diversity.

I've seen a lot of -from my point of view- disgusting or too explicit stories, but I just move on with my life, because I learned that letting people expressing themselves is what gives equality to the world. Just like is said "live and let live".
In resume, I don't care about the author's orientation or gender (sincerely, I does not interest me and I never go to check it), I only care if the story is beautiful and enjoyable, and that's what I'll always care about.

PS: Sorry for my bad english, I'm still trying to learn >:

[alaingrey]

As another gay guy, (hate having to preface with that but sometimes you have to if you want people to listen yikes ) I really don't mind bl, and sometimes enjoy them. Definitely not attracted to the characters cuz I like boys with some meat on them who look like they've hit puberty, but that's ok. I'm not the audience. I do like that there are effeminate boys who aren't female identified, because as a effeminate fellow I often have my gender identity questioned. Yaoi can be a nice validation.
Also I imagine a lot of yaoi is written by pre transition ftm who want to write about boys who look female to feel validated and wanted. I wouldn't begrudge ppl for not being LGBT enough to write a story, when they may simply be closeted. The Venn diagram for yaoi interest and ftm has a very large overlap, so in that sense I think it's really helpful to a lot of queer ppl :v
.... Also everyone I know who writes yaoi is wlw and I don't know any straight girls who do? I think it's a more diverse crowd than is credited for.

[J.Lovelace]

Ok, here's my 3 cents from a bit different perspective.

People often learn from mistakes. People learn from examples.
I think we need bad fiction just as much as we need well written stories. Mainly because:

a) people who can notice the poor quality will approach the author and give them advice to improve their storytelling - which in future will be helpful for both, the author themselves and the readers
b) we can use the badly written stories as an example, and some sort of warning to other creators as to what to avoid in their story. Like "see this thing? Never EVER do that!"

The most important part is to call out the bad fiction and educate people about things. Because you never know how much they actually researched on the topic. They might've used the wrong source materials in the first place. Just like the people who think they know everything about Japan by just watching anime...
Next time you come across something cringeworthy, let them know what bothers you. Teach them what they're doing wrong. Make them notice, comprehend and grow.
A lot of creators are understanding and willing to accept constructive criticism.

And if they're not, well then, somebody has to spank their arrogant asses.

[infectedbloodcomics]

There is almost nothing decent in the webcomics world regarding gay and lesbian stories, let's face it. This is why I think it's important for us gay and lesbian people to create good stories, even crappy stories! But stories about us. I am looking forward to the day we can read real gay and lesbian comics instead of this pile of junk.

[69Michi]

As a straight girl that enjoys BL and writes BL, the only 2 cents I have is that: Yes, I used to write cringy BL stories with cringy gay characters. Also yes, 8 years later, I still write BL but I identify them as more of a normal romance story, just two people falling in love with each other, gay or straight. (My characters are mostly pansexual, I don't force them in one or another) I write these story for the sake of telling a story, to satisfy my storytelling nerd. I would advise people not taking them too personally because in the end, they are not real. (Sure I might not be les, sure I'm aromantic and never actually experience the feeling of "romantic love" in my life. But that doesn't mean I can't write it, yea?)

Like when creators/consumers call their chaste gay fanart "sinning" and saying they're "going to hell" for drawing it, or saying stuff like "I love my gays/queer babies/etc"

LMFAO to me these terms aren't /that/ bad. Most of the time the q-slurs are thrown around as an endearing term, much like how Australians throwing "cunt" around in every sentence they speak or how you call your best friend "why u gotta be a bitch" I'm 99.99% sure they don't harbor any malice intention and shouldn't be taken seriously. It's the internet, you can't be so concern with your little feeling. On a side note about "sinning". Again, please do not take it seriously. Sin is a way for people to make fun of THEMSELVES and be hilarious about it for drawing something that if they show their parents, would receive a spanking. Not gonna lie I also use it too, but mostly on the sort of kinky arts that I secretly exchange with my friends.

[punkarsenic]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh its so obnoxious! theyre made for and by creepy straight girls, with weird relationship dynamics and typically, aside from fetishizing mlm, they fetishize east asians as well bc ~yaoi~

its also, like, theyre not at the same standard as other comics as popular? one of the most popular comics on this site is BL and horribly written, and the art is not good enough to make up for that. it ticks me off so much

[punkarsenic]

youre straight so im not quite sure how your opinion on stuff like 'sinning' and the q slur, or homophobia in general, have any value whatsoever. connoting sinning and being gay, even as a joke, is homophobic and i hate everyone who does it

EDIT: if you say 'les' again im gonna come to your house and put stones in all your shoes

[69Michi]

I know they are bad words but at the same time I probably just don't take people's words way too personal when I know they are not directing at me with harmful intention. People are free to do and say whatever they want as long as they are not causing harm (or INTENTIONALLY causing harm, which as far as I have seen people saying those words do not mean it the harmful way) You can tell people that it makes you feel uncomfortable if they are speaking to you like that, just don't expect random people out there to understand how you feel. It's the internet.

youre straight so im not quite sure how your opinion on stuff like 'sinning' and the q slur, or homophobia in general, have any value whatsoever

Just because I'm straight, my opinion is automatically irrelevant? Okay, to each their own.

[spadesart]

LMFAO to me these terms aren't /that/ bad. Most of the time the q-slurs are thrown around as an endearing term, much like how Australians throwing "cunt" around in every sentence they speak or how you call your best friend "why u gotta be a bitch" I'm 99.99% sure they don't harbor any malice intention and shouldn't be taken seriously.

i totally get what you're saying but it IS kinda different from the point of view of someone on the lgbt spectrum saying it vs someone who isnt. lgbt people can reclaim slurs like queer and are ok with it but i also know a lot of lgbt people who are SUPER super uncomfortable with hearing it especially from straight people..
and like from someone who has super homophobic christian parents and will never ever never never EVER come out to them i'm VERY uncomfortable with straight people calling gay ships 'sinning' and saying theyre going to hell etc because of my circumstances :^(

[joannekwan]

I'll just say that whenever I claim I'm sinning, I'm drawing porn-levels of penetration. xP

As for when people proclaim they love their "gay/queer babies" I give one of those confused Scooby Doo looks.
Like you're just reducing the character to a specific trait and neglecting the other parts that make them whole? It's about as weird as saying "I love my asian babies."

[69Michi]

Yah I got you! Unless you say those words irl to my face, any insults or slur joke you throw at me on the internet is automatically irrelevant. But like I said, I'm quite distance from the internet, I don't take anything on here seriously and I wish some over-sensitive people could try to not take thing over the top too. And like @joannekwan said, whenever I claim sinning, I'm not claiming that this man on man art I'm drawing is "sinning", I'm talking about fetish/kink level of art that goes over

porn-levels of penetration

😂 The sort that your mom will scream when she sees it from her adorable innocent child.
I also have trans friends who use gay/queer as a joke so I'm sure it's not just a thing from straight people.

[punkarsenic]

yes. your opinion on homophobia has no value because you have no experience with it, this is obvious.

youre straight, so you have the privilege to not take peoples homophobia personally; its not about you. people are free to be homophobic, yes, but im also free to hate them openly for it. and if i accidentally step on someone's foot, i UNINTENTIONALLY hurt them - im still gonna apologize, right? and try not to do it again? yeah? would you just carry on stepping on someones foot, whatever, who cares - you didnt mean to.

i dont expect random people to understand how i feel. i expect straight people who claim to be allies, like yourself, to listen to actually gay people.

[Emma]

I don't have a problem with BL. Putting a "BL" mark on the icon is just a type of clickbait at this point - kind of like YouTube videos and their red circles/arrows. It panders to a large demographic (ie straight girls for BL), so it's an easy (? not quite sure because I don't make BL comics) way to gain many subscribers. And the reason why straight girls like BL? Well, it's easy. It's two of the things they like... together.

[69Michi]

I value your opinion and get what you mean. I'm not pretending like I understand what gay people have been through because I am not one. People can be homophobic, but I dislike anyone who openly express their homophobic standard and say hateful words intentionally. Go by your example, if I accidentally step on someone's foot and unknowingly of that, would you still hate me for not apologizing? Unless you bring it up to me, I wouldn't know I have "accidentally" stepped on your foot. (Yes, I can be that ignorant, I'm not a psychic) And like I said, if we are talking to decent straight girl that enjoy BL, I doubt anyone would be a jerk and say "no" to you if you asked them to stop using slur words around you.

At the end of the day, I think we just have different opinion on the internet as a whole. I myself do not in anyway take internet seriously. The internet is a toxic and chaos zone, but it's what makes it a "wonderful" place. You are free to express whatever you believe in. Seem like you do take this chaos zone quite seriously though, and I don't think our argument would go anywhere if we continue since our beliefs are quite different. I just advise you to not take thing too personal. Not everyone is out to attack you. Not everyone throwing insults around meant it the harmful way.

Also I think we are derailing from the main topic so I will just back away now : - )

[punkarsenic]

okay then, fine, lets amp up the example - your casual, unintentional homophobia, after being told this is homophobic, is like you swinging around a ladder on your shoulder, after being told to be careful, and then you break my nose. and then you dont apologise, and continue swinging the ladder around. there's your analogy.

people*constantly* refuse to use the fucking q slur around gay people youre just proving yourself ignorant.

at the end of the day, i dont value your opinion, because youre wrong. bye.