Sub for Sub - It's become a bit of an issue

[bumblebeelz]

I'm gonna assume because it's more effort. To leave any sort of relevant comment, people would actually have to read the comic / novel. Even if it's only one episode, that's a much bigger timesink than just clicking the subscribe button and moving on to the next.

It could also be that support is locked behind subscriber count, so it's what everyone focuses on. People want to monetize their series, and comments / likes aren't relevant in that.

[jwabeasley]

There have been a few but it is more effort than subs/likes, and it's more of an issue if the person doesn't actually reciprocate. I always skip comment4comment with novelists because the effort it takes to read a novel chapter is far higher than a comic page or chapter. The one time I tried it with an offering novelist it wasn't reciprocated at all.

Instead I've just grown more liberal with commenting on the comics I sub to without expecting anything in return. Since I'm naturally a lurker, that takes a conscious effort.

[Krysteena]

Agreed they push other artists but not us little guys I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing I am handicapped and have no supporters outside of this platform and yes I have tried!

[jwabeasley]

I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing

That does not help the argument to keep s4s! Having novels ranked high via sub4sub that wouldn't otherwise be there is one of the problems!

[BellaTheCow]

Hey everyone! So wow ok a lot has been going on since I’ve taken a break from forums (and mostly cause I’ve been mind blowing busy) I saw this announcement just now lol and thought I would contribute my opinion before I get swamped with work again haha.

Pros of sub4sub:

1. Community Creators get more recognition, otherwise it sometimes seems like these creators are at risk of being pushed aside by the premium content Tapas promotes on the front page (although both sides do produce amazing stories and lately I’ve seen a good amount of community promotion from Tapas).

2. You can reach your ink goals quicker which while it could possibly be seen as an abuse of the ink system, could also be seen as a way for creators to circulate the ink (I hope this makes sense I’m half awake bear with me lol).

Cons of sub4sub

1. You might promote false interest in stories because most of the stories you sub you never read or don’t want to read so you end up being a fake sub, this is why I only sub to those stories I will read when I get the time and I let them know about me subbing but not in a “sub to me because I subbed to you” way, I want genuine subs and I know others want that too so I just give them a link and make sure they know sub only if they like because it’s their choice

2. Too much new read notifications filling up my mailbox 🤣🤣🤣

3. Too much spam in forums

Hope this helps! Let me know if yall need any clarification of my response. Be sure to tag me so I can see and respond (and possibly like the post so it can light up by my icon). And please bear with me I’m super busy lately so if I don’t get back in like even a week it’s not that I didn’t see anything it’s really that I can’t get to it at the moment, thank you for your understanding!

[BellaTheCow]

And I did see your mention of that game lol. @Krysteena I do miss that game and have been thinking about doing that when I can with @Aero sometime again. And if anyone wants to start another one yall are so welcome to do so it’s fun and would really help the community too I think. But only if you want to I don’t want any pressure on anyone. Peace! ️

[KennethLopezJr921]

The issue I have with sub4sub imo is that it requires commitment on both ends. If someone reads your stuff, you have to read there's. The issue is that not everyone is willing to make that commitment most of the time. That and its also not a great way to make new fans because of how transactional it is. Im honestly for getting rid of it, just because I want to see more varied forum threads that arent just sub 4 sub stuff. Like how it was before the discord was made

[DemonzuLucy]

sub x sub is like an ancient thing on the internet, well specifically YouTube, like 2012, and guess what... it never worked, and it won't work now

[Paul_Tromba]

I have been for and against sub4sub threads for varying reasons and have used them myself. Yes, it can be used to artificially inflate numbers or by people who just want the attention. However, I have also met a lot of good writers, found great stories, and received good readers of my own through them. TBH, it was really the only thing that allowed my novel to actually get seen by the community, due to my story not being of a particularly popular genre nor being a comic. There is the issue of AI writers, so not having sub4sub could be of some benefit. I guess it doesn't matter in the end. I will still be using the site.

[bulgariansumo]

I don't know if there's a kinder way to say this: Sub4sub is a method that makes me doubt a creator's skill. At best, it seems desperate. At worst, it's artificially inflating the subs of a series the creator knows can't stand on its own. That usually doesn't matter, but in certain situations, like the Action Fantasy tournament (iirc?), I remember contestants rightfully getting upset that some of the others were getting ahead by spamming sub4sub.

It also feels like one of those things you'll have to keep doing forever. If a series needs sub4sub to get readers in the first place, it's probably going to continue needing it after it crosses however many subscribers the creator is aiming for.

Whether or not it gets banned is no skin off my bones. I figure people will flock to "link and leave"-style promo threads in its absence.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear that some people who do sub4sub make an effort to engage with the series they're subbed to, but like other people said, it's not the only way to find series to engage with.

[UnholyWriter]

Hello! While I grew my novel mainly using the sub for sub method,

I think it's fair to say that it can be difficult for the countless small creators on Tapas to grow their novels without it's help, since subs will circulate around the community.

What I do think is that there should be a limit on how many subs you have before you can use sub 4 sub - e.g. If you pass 200 or 250, or maybe even 150 subs, your novel has reached out to a number of people equivalent to a year group in a large school, and so you shouldn't need sub 4 sub anymore.

However, this method also makes it seem as though you lack enough writing ability to be able to grow your series by yourself - using sub 4 sub feels like forcefully gaining fake fans. But, the counter to this is simple - if you don't want to appear that way, don't use it, I suppose.

That's my humble opinion, thank you very much!

[azurehayalet]

I only have one episode up of a series rn. I understand how it can be tempting to use sub4sub to feel like you're seen but I find it uninspiring. We're writers! We should be able to find another way of attracting attention. Something personal and interesting. I understand some people won't want to think about marketing on top of writing their story but that doesn't mean methods like sub4sub should be encouraged.

[rasteranime]

Ma'am as you read from my post it is more of a assessment, and as I mentioned sub4sub is messing up the algorithm and I do not want to partake into that culture anymore... I feel like it adds to the problem...

On a personal note I've seen your artwork on forums...and I think its beautiful and I feel you don't need to rely on sub4sub culture either... your comic will sail through on its own... I'll take my leave here... and let others voice their opinion topic... Good day to you Ma'am...

[kalmia]

I’ll be honest, the amount of sub 4 sub posts have turned my away from the tapas forums for nearly 2 years. They’ve clogged up the forums quite a lot and only recently did i learn that you’re even able to block self promo posts from showing up and decided to give the forums another try. I think either getting rid of them completely or severely limiting them would be great. Not just because of the clutter, but also because I think a lot of creators don’t realize how sub4sub is actually harmful to your own story. It leaves you with dead numbers. Your sub count might look nice but you get very little actual interaction or meaningful readers majority of the time since people only subbed to you because they want you to sub back to them, then they never actually read your story. And often times because of these dead numbers, actual readers will be turned away because to them, your numbers look like people subbed to your story and realized it wasn’t good. I’ve never engaged in sub4sub primarily for this reason. There’s a lot of times i’ll check out a “popular” comic on tapas only to find it gets on average 2 comments and 3 likes each update versus their 250 subs that would say otherwise. I’m personally for getting rid of it myself.

[Lensing]

block self promo posts

you just have to be aware that you will only see 10 people posting then

[kalmia]

Yeah, i’ve started to notice that as well Kind of unfortunate

[GamerPrincessXI]

When I was starting out here. I directly bypassed sub for sub by bravely asking Tapas directly to look at my comic. So many people responded to that post that I tried it again. Of course it was lighting in a bottle a few years ago. lol

[ratique]

Hello all,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful input and discussion! I appreciated the ideas you shared, and you laid out some pros and cons of Sub4Sub that I didn't consider.

Based on what I could see, most of you don't enjoy Sub4Sub threads, especially since they're clogging up the forum. Utilizing a single weekly thread could be a solution to cutting down on the number of threads, while keeping the spirit of S4S alive. I thought that was a good idea and did consider it as a potential option.

As we further discussed internally, we felt that other types of Promotion threads can cover the one perceived benefit (Finding new, interesting series) of a potential S4S mega thread. While mega threads would likely cut down on the clutter, it would not solve some of our other issues, like it impacting our novel rankings and setting a bad precedent for our main site.

After further careful deliberation we decided that we will prohibit Sub4Sub threads and posts starting next week.

I will draft updated forum rules and will begin closing Sub4Sub threads starting next week. S4S is still permitted for the next few days, so feel free to post away!

I greatly appreciated everyone's thoughts and time on this matter!

Best,
Isabell

P.S. This post will be closed, but feel free to continue to discuss this amongst yourselves in a separate thread if you like.

[ratique]

[ratique]