Sub for Sub - It's become a bit of an issue

[ratique]

Hello all,

As the title mentions, the often utilized "Sub for Sub" promotion category has indeed become a bit of an issue and needs to be looked at with fresh eyes.

What is happening:
1. Sub for Sub has become so prevalent, especially within this forum, that it has an effect on our Novel rankings on the Tapas main site.
2. Additionally, we are now seeing creators spamming other creators and their series, inviting them to sub for sub.
3. Creators have reached 250 subscribers utilizing Sub for sub, which allows them to request Support to be enabled on their accounts. With that, we have also seen an increase in Support abuse, which requires a lot of effort from us to review on an individual basis.

Historically, we did not actively discourage Sub for Sub because it typically did not massively impact a series performance, and was simply yet another way for you to interact with each other and show your support.

Sadly, due to the issues mentioned above, we now are seriously considering no longer allowing sub for sub threads in this forum and our Discord (with this forum likely being affected the most).

Before making an official decision on this matter, I want to hear your opinions, either in defense or against keeping Sub for Sub threads. I'm happy to be swayed in either direction, should you have good points that we did not consider.

Thank you very much,
Isabell

[ratique]

[susutaru]

Heyho!

I'm kind of new here, but I totally understand the problem with the ranking system and maybe fake accounts pushing other series or your own.

But I've also made the experience, that with sub for sub I found some cool new stories (especially comics), which I wouldn't have found without - or even worse - wouldn't even read.. (The cover isn't hitting enough, description too long, artstyle in developmen etc. )
Since you get comments or hearts from other artists, who support you because of the deal - especially for me, I think I want to give something back. It doesn't hurt, to hit the heart-button

I guess, without supporting each other a little, I wouldn't be, where I am right now.

Maybe a developer can create a tool that makes it impossible to create a thread with a similar title within x days to prevent spam?

[kyupol]

Keep sub4sub threads. Make it a specific rule like "only one thread a day" or something like that.

[kyupol]

Or if the issue is about promotion here, how about create an algorithm similar to YouTube that recommends other comics and novels Everytime someone scrolls down to the end of the particular episode.

"You may also like..." And it's a list that changes everytime and not just posting the same old comics and novels.

[susutaru]

This could be linked with the actual Spotlights or Newcomer Series to get a little attention.

[ratique]

Rules are only as good as it's enforcement - I'm not able to hunt after each person to make sure they post only once.

[ratique]

"You may also like..." And it's a list that changes everytime and not just posting the same old comics and novels.

This could be linked with the actual Spotlights or Newcomer Series to get a little attention.

We currently do not have resources for dev changes, so all solutions must use our current existing systems.

Ya know, just to make things even more difficult

[kyupol]

Another suggestion: sell ad space. Creators can purchase ad space that will either run x amount of days or have x amount of impressions depending on the paid ad promotion.

Either run those ads within the comics that people read... Or create a section on the top of the tapas page that says "THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS" (and that section displays either their user avatar that links to their profile or to individual comics or novels they wanna promote

[susutaru]

Why easygoing, haaaah.

Okay.

What about that idea:

As a moderator, you create 3-4 threads.
The first is for newcomers - promote your new series to reach the first milestone.
The second is for reaching 100.
The third is for (no idea what level comes next XD)
The fourth is for general promotion of new episodes, like in Discord.

If forum users create their own threads to promote, they will be deleted without any comment.

That would bundle the promotions, but the forum will not overflow with new threads.

[kyupol]

Or creators can make a dedicated thread for each of their series. Can only be bumped with "hey check out my new episode" post...assuming nobody decides to converse on the thread and be like "hey I love that plot twist / cliffhanger / new character outfit, etc..." And it snowballs from there.

[Oriflamme]

I’m happy something is finally done about the sub4sub. It is something I never engaged with and clogged up the forum. I would mind if it was completely banned.

[toonben]

I definitely agree with your view on the issue. I'm a longtime comic artist. I used the forums to promote and share my work with others. I avoided sub for sub and refuse to particpate in these threads. The reason is that I seek organic growth and I view sub for sub as cheap, desprate, and childish. I support other creator's comics that interest me. Other times, I don't have the time or commitment to read everything as there's a lot going on life whether it's hobbies, work, or time with friends and family. There has to be a genuine method for creators to promote their work and have their work discovered on Tapas.

I wouldn't mind if Sub 4 Sub threads are banned. I agree with the feedback from other users that includes a section for spotlight, rising stars, ad space, and more.

[vapidink]

I'm in favor of getting rid of it. It clogs up the forum and is one of the reasons so many forum regulars have promotions muted. While I can see the merit of sub4sub for people who're just getting started, it has definitely become an issue. The last writing contest made this more evident when some users were abusing the system and trying to pressure others into sub4sub even outside of those specific threads and the forums.

Maybe a weekly sub4sub thread and a harsher response to those abusing the system(or a rule against using sub4sub during contests) would keep the damage at a minimum. Anyway, my vote is to get rid of it.

Oh, and please, no ad space. I think the last thing people want is more ads.

[IndigoShirtProd]

In a general sense, I'm against sub4sub threads. They overwhelm the Promotions category and in the long run, those creator subs tend to end up being dead subs. Overall, it just seems like an inauthentic way to make a number go up on one's metrics. Many creators have the category muted just to not see sub4sub threads. There are other ways to utilize the promotion category to get more eyes on one's comic.

That being said, I understand that sub4sub can be a great way to get a few subs early on just to get the ball rolling. I could be wrong about this, but from what I understand comics/novels don't show up in the Popular category without a few subs, though I could be wrong. For the sake of getting a couple views, likes, and comments when first starting on Tapas, it's good. But after that, why even participate in sub4sub?

[KevinReijnders]

I personally don't see a use for sub4sub threads. They're used mostly, as you said, to artificially inflate numbers and reach the tapas milestones. I can't imagine sub4sub is actually used to actively engage with another creator's story.

[GarzaGoose]

I always cringe at how needy the Sub4Sub threads read off. I've brought it up in the past, but the admins here didn't seem to care or think about the consequences that it would carry on in the amateur category.
I don't like participating in them because of the disheartening subs and likes. (It's obvious nobody cares about your story, only your sub)

Plus, it muddies the water and gives everyone the impression that the only way to move up is by shamelessly begging. Then if you don't sub back, you get belittled, attacked, bullied and ridiculed, what sort of crab bucket mentality is that.

Getting rid of them will only improve the forums and give space for other topics to be discussed.

[AmysGames]

I agree that the whole sub4sub culture has gotten out of hand, and that something should be done about the massive amount of promo spam.

I guess my only concern is that, like @susutaru said, I actually do like browsing promo threads sometimes for something new to read, so I don't know if I'd want to see them go away completely. If we just did something like one massive promo spam thread, then everything is just going to be buried in a sea of noise... which, to be fair, I guess that's already happening with 5,000 promo threads.

Maybe we could delete all the sub4sub threads and just do weekly promo threads? Themed promo threads? idk, just spitballing

[jwabeasley]

I've been favorable towards sub4sub in general, as I view it as a way to meet other creators as a first step, because it tells me that the creator both has their own series and understands the nature of the forum community (that nearly all of us are fellow creators, rather than pure readers). I keep up with all my subscriptions, especially on my fellow comics.

That said, it has been a bit of a problem, especially in the past month. Some creators are more persistently creating their own new sub4sub threads, AI "writers" keep making them, new creators resurrect dead threads over a year old with their new sub request, and some creators treat every thread like it is a sub4sub thread whether it's relevant to the topic or even on topics not in the promotions category. I don't know anything about the novel rankings, but I can see how that could be an issue since novels normally get lower stats overall.

Of those, the AI "writers" are the most annoying to me personally, because since I made it a personal rule not to s4s with novels I feel are AI written (I only report them if they're provable), the AI "writers" have started PMing me to ask for s4s and then getting ...dramatic... when I tell them I don't s4s with AI work. It's not enough that I just didn't comment on their s4s threads, they have to come after me, too?

The s4s thread spammers are the most toxic to the forum though, since they create so many functionally identical threads that it actually makes it difficult for us to find the actual new people and the genuine threads. Last year they'd cut it out after a couple of weeks but lately they've been more persistent.

Some fixes I would like to see that don't amount to banning the category altogether:
- Limit creation of a new s4s thread to once every 6 months or longer. If users need to flag those threads, please put the desired limit in the guidelines, some of us would be happy to point them out.
- Is there a way for us to block or flag for review forum contributors who are spamming the forums, even if each individual thread alone would be fine? I looked for a way to do this the other day but didn't see a way.
- While the guidelines for flagging AI art are pretty straightforward, could there be a clarification on how/whether admin would like LLM writing to be flagged? I've found Tapas' AI enforcement to be the best I've seen on any website so far.

While you're here, if our participation in other people's s4s threads are preventing our work from being considered for things like staff picks, let us know.

And for my fellow forum regulars, especially a Mr. A and a Mr. K, let's be more discerning about who we agree to return subs for and avoid posting on LLM "novelist" and forum spammer threads. If they got no attention, they would stop doing it faster. When they post a s4s, take a moment to look at their work and decide whether it's worth it before replying. If we've already subbed, then skip it!

[Red_Dog]

The upside to this is that it would probably convince some people to turn back on their visibility for promotion threads since I've seen a few folks here say that they turned them off for that reason.
There are a few people here (myself included) that have a promotion threads that's just for their comics where they post updates and side art and sneaks peaks. I find that stuff, fun.