The difference between "feeling yourself like an another gender" and "being free from stereotypes about your gender"

Merle 2019-06-05 22:36:51 UTC #6

xD I get where you are coming from, somehow. I wanted to be a boy, too, especially after people started treating me like a girl (I was raised like a boy at first, bc of my many many brothers).

I am not transgender, but I think the closest I can get to explain the experience is to compare it to another experience.

Idk if you have to deal with it or not, but for a lot of women and girls I know, it is hard to explain to Men why we still feel put down in a lot of areas. Because they haven´t had those experiences of disrespect, ugly jokes about what you are supposed to be, they don´t ever have to fear being pregnant and loosing rights, harrasement - It is easy for them to say that the laws says we are equal, so that´s how it must be. And I cannot tell them of every single one of those experiences, and how they have shapped me over many years, can´t completely let them walk in my shoes. They can want and try to understand.

I can try to imagine I was in the wrong body, but I can´t really know what it feels like.
So I´m just respectfull and trust the experiences of so many transgender people shared over all the years, listen to what they say, and believe it (I have no reason not to)

(no idea if it´s a good analog, but maybe you will understand the basic idea since you´re a woman as well )

vothnthorvaldson 2019-06-05 22:40:18 UTC #7

For me, it was very simple, because I also don't (and never did) perceive the gender of OTHERS, so I knew very early gender was a concept that would not really have much importance in my life (fun fact: I tend to address my father in law as female. No idea why, no specific reason. It's pretty random).

I also had the luck to grow in an environment that was relatively free of gender roles, so my lack of gender identification was not a problem for a long time, as I was not really expected to act a specific way in relation to my biological sex.

I now live in a region with very, very strong gender roles, impossible for me to fulfill as either gender, so I suppose if I had grown here things would have been different, and social expectations would have maybe alter my choices (my cis spouse can't manage to adapt to these gender roles we have here either).

I do have mild problem with my body, but it's more about the inability to have both male and female characteristics rather than having a problem with what I have.

bakasama25 2019-06-05 22:49:48 UTC #8

If mean "interesting" as a potential dumpster fire waiting to happen, I get you.

AmazementComics 2019-06-05 22:53:17 UTC #9

You understand correctly.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-05 23:03:50 UTC #10

Your case doesn`t sound like feeling like another gender. Maybe at first you wanted to be a man because your enviroment was too strict with what women are supposed to be and supposed to do.

In mi case, i don`t care about gender roles. I would be happy being a stay at home dad or providing for my family as long as it is working on something i love.

I am a cisgender straight dude, but i don`t overthink if i am been masculine enough. I can say that i think a male looks attractive without having any kind of desire "down there" and i enjoy some "masculine" and "feminine" hobbies and shows.

If you like wearing dresses, just wear them. If you dont like them, dont use them. If you are interested in marriage, go for it, and if you are not, then dont go for it. People care too much about what others think, so as long as you dont hurt yourself or others, just do it.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-05 23:06:26 UTC #11

when people ask my dad about it, he jokingly says he is a "male lesbian"

indagold 2019-06-06 00:23:42 UTC #12

I think the difference is gender dysphoria. It's where you suffer distress because your neurological sex doesn't match your biological sex. Being ashamed of your gender is more psychological and social and not wanting to conform to gender roles but are happy with your gender is gender expression. If that helps clarify things, I learned it mostly from watching trans youtubers/blogs and med sites. Research is your best bet.

Also don't ask people about what your gender is, it's a great way to get people to manipulate you when you're at your most confused and vulnerable (advice from someone who was outta the closet for 6 years). Best bet is just take what they said as an opinion. I found more about my gender and expression by myself than asking other people.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-06 00:39:09 UTC #13

Not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, so it's not necessarily the best way to tell. (granted I am no expert on the topic! this is just to my personal understanding)

Exactly as you did. You know you're not trans because you were able to resolve your gender issue, a trans person would not be able to reach a resolution in any way that was not the expression of the gender they feel themselves to be. Also worth noting that labels are only for the individual to assign themselves- if a person decides they are trans you accept it, if they decide they are not, you accept it.

But yeah, I think both "issues" are resolved by letting the teen express themselves appropriately based on their individual needs.

And when it gets into more complicated stuff like hormones and surgery there are professionals involved in that process. It's not like it's done on a whim.

qwerty 2019-06-06 02:51:13 UTC #14

I just want to take a second to thank and appreciate all the people who've managed to participate in @tired_programmer and @DokiDokiTsuna 's topics while remaining non-confrontational despite the subject matter. Increasing my faith in humanity, you guys ^^

My personal experience is kind of similar to tired_programmer's. I used to feel somewhat constricted by the social expectations associated with my gender. But now that I've realized I can do what I want without identifying in a particular way or having a particular body, I don't care anymore. Use whatever pronouns you want, expect of me what you want, I can't be bothered. My identity, my behavior, my attitude are all my choices, and if someone doesn't like it they'll just have to get used to being disappointed XD

MegaRay 2019-06-06 03:06:58 UTC #15

I am just glad I didn't had to deal with all this confusion when I was a kid/teenager. Male, female, whatever, the only thing matter is that you be you.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-06 04:51:31 UTC #17

Yeah, teaching too much about sexuality at an early age is too confusing for them.

Also, you don`t always know the teachers, so a pedophile could easily exploit this vulnerable spot sponsored by the state.

Is better for parents to give the talk when the time is right. The only thing they need to know is that women get pregnant and that makes babies. Also to teach them about not letting people touch the private parts.

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-06-06 07:12:56 UTC #18

@DiegoPalacios @mariusthered
What area of the world are you referring to, I wonder? Because it's been my impression that the US does a notoriously poor job with sex education, for children of any age. A lot of the time it's skipped over altogether, both at school and at home. If children these days have 'lost their innocence' too early, I would chalk it up to natural curiosity and the advent of the internet, not anything they were taught expressly.

...And on that note, I don't believe it's a recent phenomenon anyhow, for children to be curious about the idea of sexuality. The difference, I think, is that it's no longer as taboo to talk about it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, once upon a time, it was considered strange for adult women to be thinking about sexuality, or to even have a concept of it in their minds. Times change. =/

unknown_user 2019-06-06 07:17:27 UTC #19

Yes, that what I talked about. So I'm trying to sort out, what's the difference between this and really feeling like another gender.

Agree.

unknown_user 2019-06-06 07:19:43 UTC #20

That's what I'm trying to understand. How does this feeling look like? As I said:

So, I wonder, is there a way for me to imagine the thing you are talking about?

punkarsenic 2019-06-06 07:26:08 UTC #21

re: trans men, a thought experiment ive heard is 'when someone treats you in a gendered way and it makes you uncomfortable, ask: would you be upset if they did this to your female friend?'

eg: youd be upset abt being called a bitch, but youd also be upset if your friend got called a bitch - angry at misogyny. but if youre upset about being called 'miss', but obvs dont mind your friend being called 'miss', it could be gender dysphoria.

as a nonbinary person who used to ID as a trans guy, i feel like theres a lot of ambiguity - sometimes, nobody can tell you 'yes, you are objective A Man or A Woman' or even that youre objectively neither. sometimes youve just gotta find the way of being feels most comfortable to you. so its not 'im a man because i liked GI joe as a kid' its 'im a man because i want to be a man' - and that should be respected, and people should be allowed to change their minds several times in their lives without judgement. shits confusing.

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-06-06 07:42:40 UTC #23

If that's how you really feel, then why be uncomfortable? ^^ This is a forum, a place where people talk about things. So you shouldn't be alarmed when people question you about the things you say, or even disagree with you. That's kind of the point of this site...if you really don't care how people feel about your statements, it shouldn't bother you that they express those feelings.

Now if you just don't want to engage in discussion about your statements, that's another matter entirely...and if that's the case, I think you might be better served running a blog, or something similar where you're not necessarily expected to talk to people about the things you say. A forum really isn't the place for just dropping opinions and expecting them to be left alone...

punkarsenic 2019-06-06 07:53:28 UTC #24

@DokiDokiTsuna @mariusthered

im british and gen z, and ill say that british sex ed is pretty pathetic. i was taught that the age of consent for gays is 18! in 2014!

there has been a recent row in the UK abt primary schools in... birmingham? doing a class / mb a srs of classes on LGBT issues and identity, but really if u want kids to be less confused abt gender and sexuality, the best solution is to just teach them about it in a controlled environment. you cant keep gay and trans experiences out of the lives of kids - maybe a few, very unfortunately children, but you wont keep it out of the minds of trans kids, LGB kids, kids with LGBT parents or carers or siblings.

when i was in primary school, the boys called eachother gaylord all the time. i used to double take pretty girls and then be terrified i was gay (i was). we used to play mash, talk about who we would marry - we'd be expected to have a crush on A Boy. Any Boy. when puberty came - and puberty comes at like, 8 years old for some people - things got even more complicated and confusing for everyone. kids are thinking about gender and sexuality, and school is a place to give them some control of the narrative through understanding and respect for their feelings.

there is an issue right now where youve got a considerable amount of cis women (not a lot, proportionally, but enough to be talking about) transitioning to male and then regretting the decision - however, because this is a new development that hasnt been properly studied, these womens experiences not properly, scientifically explored, it would be lazy and inaccurate to chalk it up to 'too much of this trans business around'

unknown_user 2019-06-06 07:53:55 UTC #25

It sounds like a good criteria for distinguishing the cases of being upset about particular gender-related words and being upset about treating you as a wrong gender in general. But how do I understand it, if I'm usually not upset about any type of treating?
I'm used to being called a "girl" in real life, and I don't feel anything particular about it. In the same time, in the internet people often take me for a guy (if I don't say them directly that I'm not a guy or don't show my photos). Sometimes I feel like it's funny, sometimes I'm irritated that people didn't bother to read my profile info (where my sex is usually written), but most of the time I just don't feel anything particular about it again and ignore it.

Since I've grown up, I don't worry about all these "gender" things too much myself.
But from time to time I see, how someone in the internet claims that they have a gender, different from their biological sex; and (especially if this person is young!), more traditional-minded people often say that it is a "phase". So, I suppose that they refer to the cases like mine and other people, who were confused because of gender stereotypes in their young age, but then sorted things out for themselves. Of course, the misgendered person starts to argue and say that they are wrong, but both sides are unable to proof anything to each other.
It's hard for me to understand who is right and who is wrong in such a situations (if exclude obvious trolling cases and suppose that they all are serious about their claims). I can definitely say, that the people, who says about the "phase" usually cause me antipathy because of being categorical, intrusive and often aggressive. But sometimes people, who claims that their gender feeling is true, behave irritating, too. So both sides just pump conflict up and insult each other, and it becomes impossible to sort out anything.

I suppose that a "phase" situation (like mine) and real transgender situations are actually different situations, but I don't know how to catch this difference. And, like I said, I can't extract anything from the most internet discussions about this topic, because they are too biased and aggressive.

punkarsenic 2019-06-06 08:00:57 UTC #26

well, then its just about what expression and identity works best for you. and again, these things arent objective - if youd had different experiences in your life, you may have found yourself a trans man, or nonbinary. but youre not wrong about being a woman now, and you wouldnt be wrong about being a man or nb in this alternate timeline.

i think people put a lot of unnecessary weight on 'how do i know???' - its all quite arbitrary in the end, if you have doubts just try something out, if you dont like it as much as something else just stick to something else. it doesnt need to be so existential (ofc i realise for ppl seeking medical transition these doubts are thrown at them by medical professionals and there is perhaps more need to be sure of your decision if doing smth irreversible, but the level of 'fraud-catching' scrutiny in medical transition is honestly ridiculous)

maybe their gender is a phase! maybe my love of comics is a phase. maybe your identity as a woman is a phase. we are constantly changing and growing, but we should respect who someone is in the moment. if that kid is saying theyre a man, theyre a man. if they change their mind tomorrow, theyre not a man tomorrow.

like, i dont ID as a trans guy anymore, but i still talk abt that period in my life as 'when i was a man' - in that time, that was most definitely my truth. im just a different person now, and thats okay.

also, if id had better access to medical transition, had lived with a supportive family, had gone to a supportive school, i might still be man! my decisions about who i am and my gender are heavily influenced by my environment and what i have access to. if more people had treated me like a guy as a teen, if id met less nonbinary people and cool lesbians, i totally coulda been a man forever. i dont think that somewhere deep inside me theres a concrete truth on whether im a guy or a girl or a both or a neither, its just where i end up, and a smidgen of choice.

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-06-06 08:10:35 UTC #27

I feel like that's the kind of thing I had in mind when I started my topic from way back when. That dimension of gender that's just a frame of mind and subject to change...I feel like it's better to not have any labels if that's how it's gonna be. Instead of having to decide, 'today I'm a man', just let it be 'I'm me, period', and leave yourself free to do whatever you want any day of the week, rather than having to abide by one set of rules and then jump to another one later on.