The fans don't matter

[Pablo.C.S]

I'm really glad my content has helped you

I completely understand this temptation to give the fans what they want, but it's important to understand that the dedicated fans will stick with you, for your content, regardless of your artistic choices.

It's also important to not go overboard with this mindset either, and create something that is reactionary against fans, or that challenges the fans without any in-story reason. This way it's still letting fans dictate your creation, just another side of the coin.

If you're interested I've linked another video of his, that goes into the various types of successes a story can have. I hope it helps also:

[Jenny-Toons]

This is absolutely right.

And I say this from the standpoint of being a fan. I've been one longer than I've been a creator, and by "creator", I mean actually posting my work for public viewing.

As a fan, I prefer works that have passion in it. Like, I know there are times you can't have all of your passion in your work. And I know sometimes there are circumstances, like it being your job, where you have to appeal to a mass audience. But, I still want to be able to see the joy in it. I want to be able to see this creator in an interview, hear their words, and go "yes -- they ducking enjoy what they do"

It hypes me up that they're hyped. If they're excited about what they do, they're telling me "man, this is some good shit, you gotta check it out!!"

Those are the works I enjoy more -- not really the ones that try to pander to "my tastes". Dunno what that even means anyhow. They're assuming fans like this stuff because it's popular, but a lot of times, it's a waste. Even if you do try to appeal via mainstream trends or try to jump on the popular train, it really doesn't mean it'll be a hit. Execution is the deal sealer, not idea.

How many shows, animes, cartoons, movies, and more have we had in the past several years? Think of how many have tried to jump on the popular train. Now let's think about how many of them are memorial and well-received.

Just...in the end, it's way better to do what you like, or at least have some joy in it. I'd rather do that and have fans who like my works for my works than to try and pander to people, only for it to blow up in my face because "Hah, you guessed wrong, you dingus!!"

[handsoutofmymouth]

i agree with basically everything you've said but attention is one of the main motivators for almost all artists and not everyone can make a mass appealing comic so it stands to reason that there would be some bending to the readers will, it's just good business to give people what they want

[Pablo.C.S]

Naturally there is going to some adherence to plot structure and character archetypes, but it's not bending to a readers tastes, per se... rather adapting to norms and conforming to standards.

[Pablo.C.S]

Exactly, as an audience member, for me at least, the quality and passion of a story outweighs any subjective issues I might have with it, the story isn't created for me alone, but as an expression of it's creators and for a larger audience.

Aka: I can appreciate the quality of a story even if I don't like the story itself.

[handsoutofmymouth]

i mean more pandering than structure and whatnot although i don't see how adhering to plot structure and archetypes is somehow less offensive than doing something for the fans. if someone wants to make a pandering piece then there's no moral reason they shouldn't

[unknown_user]

Everything depends on your primal purpose. If you make art just for profit (as Hollywood does), than pleasing fans desires is the main thing for you. But if your primal purpose is self-expression, than, obviously, you will do everything as you want yourself. If your goal is something in between, you do something in between. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Nuff said.

[Pablo.C.S]

I'm personally not against a pandering creative project, if that's what you want to do then do it. There is no 'moral' reason against it.

The problem is this mindset is not usually about creating for the sake of creating, but for the sake of assuring fiscal returns, or garnering views (as is the case with free content) from a product. So basically a business.

These types of stories also assimilates and saturates the market, not giving much chance for smaller projects, or more unconventional projects to get a chance to meet with their audiences.

Look at the video game industry, it's basically being dominated by game franchises that are created just to make money, rather than offer or bring to life a vision. For example: call of duty, assassins creed, etc.

It hurts the industry as, before this, lot's of other video games ideas and stories were given more flexibility to create and play around with the medium. There were no annual franchises to imitate or compete with.

Now the industry has pretty much become: conform or be overlooked.

[Reign]

Thanks! i appreciate it!

[HGohwell]

I understand and fundamentally I agree that works should just be created and done with passion. Some of my favourite series attempted to pander and give the fans the "strong female characters" the demanded and we ended up with violent tsunderes who actually had no more agency in the plot than the previous girls in the franchise (not that this stopped some members of fandom praising them as queens).

Meanwhile one of my other favourite franchise takes a much more tempered response to fans. The creator managed to keep creative control (to the point where he does all the writing himself and worked himself into hospital writing the latest season, which is worrying) so there's little executive meddling. Fans for a long while have been demanding the two main characters and two minor main characters move passed their 2 girl romantic friendship and become "official", but he's steadfastly said "they don't need to kiss to be and official couple and I don't intend to do it, they've said I love you enough times a kiss isn't needed". I actually really admire this in a writer. On the other hand in season 3 we had the most awful dad who left his daughter when she was bullied for not dying in a monster attack at 14 and made the situation about him and was somehow redeemed and forgive despite doing nothing to deserve it. Another episode in season 4 attempted to go "you're kinder because you know suffering" but ended up going "abuse is good". Both these examples, fans complained and the writer agreed it didn't work as well in practice as he meant it to and season 4 dropped the dad entirely (he wasn't needed they had a perfectly good found father figure anyway).

So yeah, there's a very fine line between pandering and listening to criticism. I respect a writer who says listens than who panders.

[Pablo.C.S]

I agree, first and foremost the project should be good, then be authentic and true to a vision, second. I didn't go too much into this as I've already gone into this topic in much more detail in my previous threads.

[Reign]

Holy crap. This whole topic is so eye opening. For years I've had my comic in my head, and then once I released it and made it official I became obsessed with views and what people thought of my comic. Reading these now, I'm realizing that I should be creating for me, not necessarily just creating for others and attention. What's the best way to not get swallowed in those desires that are unhealthy for your comic?

[Pablo.C.S]

Ignore the fans unless they offer constructive criticism.

Write and have a finished script that you want to write and is authentic to your vision then stick to that throughout the comic.

[Reign]

I REALLY need to write the script. I know the initial events that will happen, but don't have the script. Thanks for the advice. Looks like I need to get cracking on that one!

[Pablo.C.S]

it's much better to have a script first, adapt that, then try to fix the story later after you've done the pages.

[Reign]

Okay. That makes more sense. Now I know what I'm doing this weekend.

[handsoutofmymouth]

i cant disagree with you more tbh. not every piece of media needs to be a labor of love that could only have a micro audience. if that were the case then there would be no cultural phenomenons that drive our culture and everyone can relate with each other over liking. you used the games industry as an example for why things shouldn't be made with mass appeal but i think its actually a good example for my argument. yes its true that its driven by games made soley for profit but there's also been a massive rise in indie games that are way more creative than anything that came out in the pre aaa era, this rise wouldn't have been possible without the mass appeal games being there to increase the industry size. and the same is true of all other artistic industries, the popular creates potential audience for the niche

[skicoak]

Great points.

I think so much of this problem is our current culture's inability to resist "Hype". In this regards, "hype" being all the artificial mechanisms corporations use to create a demand for a product outside of it's actual quality/suitability for a specific market.

Just in general, it's insidious that corporations have made the focus of whether or not a product succeeds/fails be based on a separate team of advertiser's efforts. And so many of those efforts are driven to market to the golden demographic instead of a market that would most likely support it better.

[Rodimus13]

While this is all true and should be considered- the fact is that if you plan to write for a living sometimes you have to make "popular" things. (I will mention this story technically covers both sides of the argument)

The biggest proof of this was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle himself.

"Whhhaat? But he had a great fanbase with Holmes!"

And that is true. But he wrote stories about Holmes to the newspapers to pay the bills. It's why his short stories are next to impossible to figure out what goes in what order. He played fast and loose with the cannon because he really did not care about that. It was to pay the bills only.

But then why was his writing at all?

So he could get enough attention to publish his true labor of love.... historical fiction.

Once he was ready to go fully into that he looked at Holmes, which was getting far more attention than he wanted, and killed him off. He felt it was a fitting end for a story that he didn't care about and really half the time he just used to show off how smart he was. He got someone to publish his historical fiction, everyone assuming the Homes fans would flock to that next.

They did not.

Now this next part I would like to say, shows the dangers of listening to fans too much.

They cried and screamed- they wanted MORE Holmes!

So... he did as they asked hoping if he did they'd pay attention to his other works and also... he was running out of money.

He wrote some stories that took place BEFORE the incident at the water fall. Even a complete novel. His heart was not in it at all, but he did it anyway.

The fans demanded more and more and finally... he caved. He had Holmes appear to Winston after having died and coming up with a crazy story about how he survived. The fans bought it and read it.

They were angry "The old stuff was better!"

And thus... the first nerd fan rage was recorded.

What I feel this bit of history shows is that sometimes, writers need to make money for other projects and sometimes the audience won't care for your other projects. It can be better if you do what you love first- but if writing is a career then well... you might HAVE to do stuff you don't like to get to the projects you love. But then be braced for the fact your audience who loves you may never love what you do.

[Pablo.C.S]

There were always indie devs, the saturated triple AAA market really didn't have anything to do with helping out said devs.

The rise in the indie devs has more to do with an increased access to software and more user and creator friendly online platforms and marketplaces that did not exist in, say the 90's and 80's.

I'm not against triple AAA publishers and games, I'm against what they've become.

Seriously, DLC microtransactions, Lootboxes, repetitive, uninovative franchises, selling less game for more money... this isn't fun or art anymore.