The N Word: When is it OK?

[ashersz]

Also, If you are doing characters of a different race/ethnicity from your own its great thing to do your research.

I see a lot of people who assume that the word is commonly used amongst black people when not all of us use the word at all. This misconception comes from the media. It's a really great thing we have this community who can give you some insight

[joannekwan]

Woooh I woke up to a LOT of discussion on this thread! haha

Thanks for all your insight everyone!
Yes, the confederate monument debate is a bit off topic, but if you want to keep discussing it feel free to PM me or whatever. (For the record, I am aware most of the statues were put up during Jim Crow and many were funded by the Daughters of the Confederacy to intimidate black citizens. I'm not opposed to their removal and would prefer monuments honoring black victims)

Any way, great discussions going on! I'm glad we can talk about all this civilly.
And yup @ashersz, I wanted this thread to be like a stepping stone in research, not just for myself but for anyone interested. It's just good to hear from different folks, ya know?

[UzukiCheverie]

I can't help but feel this is relevant:

[insomniascrawl]

If it's being used in a hateful way or with a hard 'R', I'd ditch it and figure out something else. It may be historically accurate and all, but in that context there's just hate and disrespect behind it and the world has enough of that right now tbh.

Use in a modern setting, that's a little bit more complicated. I grew up in a mostly black community, I'm half black, I've heard all sorts of people say it black or not, and I've never felt any kind of way about it because to me it was just slang before I knew it to be anything else as I think it was for a lot of people of all kinds of backgrounds because I was just a word you heard, without knowing the history; in that community, the word isn't really hurtful. It's strange when people outside of that sort of community use it as well regardless of the colour of their skin i.e; 'That rapper said it so I should be able to as well!' kind people I mean, so in that setting; again, I'd ditch it and figure out something else.

There's a lot of long replies to this because it's a complex question with complex answers and many viewpoints and you'll most likely have to give a long complex defense if you chose to use it. All that said, it's up to you if you use it or not. If it's super instrumental to your story and you feel like you would be giving up artistic integrity, so do what you want, but be prepared for a reaction and/or criticism.

[punkarsenic]

when it comes to slurs in general, i think its important for the writer to take a step back and consider carefully and in full the history of the word, and its effect on people today. with the n word, i think its especially important to take some time to fully consider the weight of the word, because its probably the most normalised of any slur in the english language, despite being the bloodiest. this talk by black british activist Akala really puts that into context well, although its specifically about the black community's use of the n word (which akala used to use a lot, but later swore off the word and encouraged other black people he worked with to do the same). i have no say whatsoever in that particular discussion - though it may be relevant to writing black characters - but his thoughts on the word are still important to consider

ive been in situations in writing before where ive considered using slurs that apply to people in my community - particularly f*ggot, in a context of internalised homophobic and homophobic violence. i decided not to - to censor the word, or more likely replace it with a less hard-hitting insult, because i know what those slurs feel like. even reading it - particularly when immersed in fiction - when a slur comes out like that, you flinch. its not a good feeling. ive been in a majority-black class while reading classics with the n word in it, and when its read out without warning, the discomfort is tangible. especially when the reader is white.

its also just not comfortable to write. you can argue as much as you like about the importance of naturalism and authenticity, but ultimately everything you write is still coming back to you, and the race of the author changes the impact of that word being written out. if the word really is so fundamental to the speech of a black character, then if you replace it with a euphemism, everyone will get the gist. people do this all the time with words like 'brother.'

personally, i believe that there is a very thin line between words you write, and words coming out your mouth, in terms of their impact. to use the n-word as a nonblack person requires a very, very good reason, and i'm not sure those reasons exist.

[joe_galindez]

Damn that man talks fast. I had to turn on the subtitles to keep up.

the race of the author changes the impact of that word being written out

I suppose it does, but I have faith that writers can step outside of themselves and, through empathy and long study, step into the lives of others and tell their stories in an authentic way. We're all human beings here. It should be possible to reach a certain level of understanding when it comes to any part of the human experience.

The alternative is to wait until a storyteller comes along with exactly that background, and even then I'm not sure they could be objective about their experiences.

[R.n.P]

honestly don't care, as long it isn't use in a derogatory manner, context just matters at the end of the day

[punkarsenic]

Damn that man talks fast. I had to turn on the subtitles to keep up.

mark of an intelligent man, that is! (off topic but i love how he talks sm)

I suppose it does, but I have faith that writers can step outside of themselves and, through empathy and long study, step into the lives of others and tell their stories in an authentic way. We're all human beings here. It should be possible to reach a certain level of understanding when it comes to any part of the human experience.

but the question is, does every writer have the right to tell every story? i dont believe straight men have the right to tell stories about lesbian suffering, and when they do their own lack of understanding and foresight, their inability to actually be someone like me, leads to lesbophobic content being created. similarly, i dont believe its up to white people to tell delicate black narratives, when they could be enriching the work of black creators who will do it better themselves.
moonlight is not a film that could ever be created by white people. the get down is directed by baz lurhmann, a white man, who talked about how the story was not his and he was a conduit through which his team - who had a claim to the story of black culture and struggle - could work. we can talk til were red in the face about representation, but that needs to be behind the camera, the drawingboard, and the writingdesk as well as on the page and the screen.

and even then, this isnt about entering narratives and perspectives. this is about a word with the weight of genocide behind it. i dont think having the courtesy to decline from using the word prevents anyone from using empathy and telling authentic, three-dimensional stories of black characters.

also, inb4 someone says it, im not against white writers having black characters and discussing racism in their stories, obviously. but there are some narratives, particularly those of intracommunity issues, that a white writer arguably cannot accurately and sensitively broach without the input of black creatives, and its better for a white creator to enrich and promote the work of a black creator creating a black-centric story that deals with complex elements of the black experience (eg, again, moonlight) than it is for a white person to try and broach that topic for themselves. i just dont believe people's intricate and sensitive narratives are a free for all.

[Aspie_Gamer]

@punkarsenic

Strongly disagree.

It can help if you are of the perspective you are writing about, but as long as you put in the research, anyone can tell any story. If for example somebody who isn't autistic makes a comic about autism and its good, then its good. If its bad, then its not proof that only autistic people can write about autistic people. Its simply a bad story that will be promptly forgotten about. Not to mention people of a specific race/gender/sexual orientation/mental condition can still make bad stories targeted at their own kind. Simply being (x) does not mean it would automatically make a story about (y) better by default.

[punkarsenic]

yes, i believe research can go a long way. but if were talking about authenticity, and sensitivity, its still the case that - to whatever extent - you are writing about the other, rather than writing as yourself. as an autistic person, i am yet to come across a story about autism written by neurotypicals that doesnt skeeve me off immensely - and, actually, its funny that you use that example, given that the phrase 'nothing about us, without us' is touted by large areas of the autistic community, primarily the ASAN-aligned crowd (my crowd, to be explicit.) how good can this theoretical story about autism be, if not written by an autistic person? i believe theres an upper limit. i believe neurotypicals should include autistic characters and autistic character arcs in their work, but i dont believe they will ever be as authentic or as meaningful to me as an autistic person as autistic stories told by autistic people.

besides, autism is a bad example, because it doesnt have a community and history anything like the black community. white people cannot write stories about child abuse in the black community. we cannot write stories about misogyny within the black community. these are not our struggles, it is not our place to throw stones, we need to instead prioritise authentic black voices to tell these stories (and yes, its a given, that the people whose writing should be celebrated in these tellings should be good writers. i dont think the 'a theoretical white person could be a better writer than a theoretical black person, therefor the white person has a right to write abt black issues' argument has any substance whatsoever.)

ANYWAY! TANGENT! no more discussing who has the right to tell certain stories unless were directly relating it to the use of the n word.

[joannekwan]

@punkarsenic Actually I think the subject of who has the right to tell certain stories is a good topic for discussion. If you want to create a thread about that I'd keep a close eye on it and possibly comment as well. : )

[punkarsenic]

yeah, it is a really interesting discussion! i think ill do that

[spadesart]

i'd say to look into aave that doesnt carry a bad history or maybe get a reference/proofreader to prevent issues?

[joe_galindez]

i love how he talks

You'd hate how I talk. I used to stutter and now I talk like an Easter Island statue.

does every writer have the right to tell every story?

I think we claim that right each time we tell a story. It may turn out bad, but whether or not it is a good story doesn't depend on the Culture Police.

And unless we're actually inserting fictionalized versions of ourselves into the story, every act of writing is going to involve characters with a greater or lesser degree of otherness. If we can accept that a writer can give voice to vampires, aliens, and medieval French knights, then why can't he write black, lesbian, or black and lesbian (blesbian?) characters?

I mean, Black Beauty (heh) was written in first-person, and we don't hear about anyone getting offended on behalf of horses.

You may not have read an authentic lesbian story written by a straight man, but I maintain that such a thing is possible. Again, I think that human beings are all the same on the inside. Personal circumstances differ but it's possible, given research and mental flexibility, to imagine yourself in someone else's shoes.
Method actors do it all the time. Regular people can do it too, with hypnotic suggestion. As for how the audience can be affected, Saving Private Ryan was so realistic that veterans couldn't sit through the opening scene.

[punkarsenic]

gonna leave you with an agree to disagree right now, i have a lot of Hot Takes i wanna throw back at you but im pooped out. carry on this discussion here

Continuing the discussion from The N Word: When is it OK?: a really interesting discussion was sparked in @joannekwan 's thread, about who has the right to tell certain stories that are closely tied to a marginalised community. for example, do white people have the right to tell stories about the nuanced issues of black identity? do straight people have the right to tell stories about homophobic violence? and, even if they have the right - should they, and what are the implications the writer'…

[ratique]

[ratique]

The main topic of this thread has been thoroughly discussed with many great responses, so we are closing this now.

Thank you everyone for a very fruitful discussion! Feel free to create new threads with some of the topics that came up in this discussion, if you would like to explore these themes in more detail.

Well done, everyone!

Cheers,
Rat