Too idealistic?

[ble]

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[NanettesClouds]

I've seen your advice before about being a "niche" creator... and telling cats to learn to live with it is not nearly as helpful as you telling them they'll have to find alternative means to bring their potential audience here to Tapas would be

I mean it's not that I'm saying "you're niche. Lie down and rot with the rest of us" but the reality is - if you're niche you're gonna have a hard time finding an audience ANYWHERE. And It's going to take a lot more work to find out what works for you, and the things that work are probably going to be fairly unconventional.

Do you wanna know what some of the things I do to grow my audience are? 1) I participate pretty deeply here in the tapas community (in the forums, in discord groups, and as other people's reader and occasional collaborator). This can be seen as basic advice, but if youve seen my posts it's pretty clear that I interact differently than the other creators on this platform. But also, this is what feels genuine to me.

2) I make a lot of short minicomics that are easy to share. (And also hypothetically they can game the algorithm a bit but it hasn't worked out yet)

3) I print out zines of those minicomics and I distribute them in meatspace, and occasional I bring people to the site with them, and hopefully that leads them to my main comic that I can't print yet. (And I probably won't print it anyways)

But like - here's the thing skidude, what I'm doing WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU. (It barely works for me) Our work is different and appeals to different people. It's not overly optimistic to say "you just have to wait and find out what works" because that's the truth. There is no "one weird trick that doctors hate" that will make your comics successful overnight, or in a week, or in a decade.

And besides that - What do you want from me? Like, do you want me to look you dead in the eyes and tell you that I think your comics are bad? There's a difference between being a realist and being a dick, and to some extent it sounds like you're asking me to be a dick, because every time anyone takes a step towards being "realistic" you move the goalpost.

There's a reason why the "standard advice" is what it is - and it's because it's the truth, and it's been the truth for much longer than tapas or even webcomics in general have been around.

[skicoak]

I mean, I usually see much more advice than just that!

Maybe I'm just missing it or it doesn't occur as much as it use to but I don't see that kind of depth normally.

You see the normal practical checklist of... post regularly, push on social media, active in forums, mirror on other sites, ect. But usually if they check off all those boxes then vague philosophical stuff starts. I think it's great some folks are digging deeper but I just haven't seen it.

And I agree unsolicited critiques are bad business but that doesn't remove the ability to discuss the other relevant factors such as potential marketability and such.

When someone actually gets nothing but "it's normal for stats to be low when you're starting, just keep going," that usually means that there's nothing else glaring that we can see that's hampering them, the number of subs they have doesn't seem distressingly small, and it's literally just a matter of hanging in there until they find more of their audience.

And if that's the case, that's all that can be done...but like the OP, myself and others are saying that's when the topic header creeps in. I've repeatedly said I'm not mad at it happening but it does happen a lot.

Sorry about the "niche" tangent, I didn't explain clearly enough that it was a callback to a previous conversation to niah146 that referred to a very specific back and forth.

[crayon_witch]

I like that everyone is kind here. And to be honest, the handful of times that someone did need a reality check or tough love, the community responded appropriately. I don’t see it as sugarcoating; webcomics are so so so hard already. A lot of the time the people that make the kind of threads about art block, sub count, etc just needed some encouragement to keep going, or advice from more experienced creators because they’re new and don’t know how the industry works yet.

Criticism and realistic discussion is healthy, of course! But it should always be done in a supportive environment to BE healthy. The forum here is good at keeping that balance, I think.

[skicoak]

Maybe you don't recall but we've already tread this ground...
and I remember clearly where it leads.

There's a difference between being a realist and being a dick, and to some extent it sounds like you're asking me to be a dick, because every time anyone takes a step towards being "realistic" you move the goalpost.

This is an inflammatory statement exaggerated and crafted to start the kind of argument that can lead to me getting flagged. Last time you and others did this, you falsely painted me as homophobic and trying to take over the site like I was a scout from Comicsgate.

You don't like me and my opinions...coolio. But please stop trying to draw me into situations where you think you can lead me into getting banned.

[NanettesClouds]

Sorry about the "niche" tangent, I didn't explain clearly enough that it was a callback to a previous conversation to niah146 that referred to a very specific back and forth.

I mean even if @shazzbaa doesn't know the full context of exactly what we're talking about here that doesn't make their points invalid? If anything Shazz is one of the most credible people on this site, and anything they have to say is worth listening very closely to (even if they're not fully in the loop). And honestly, I don't think people need to see the other post to get what we're talking about anyways? like it's pretty general comic making knowledge...

Also like - this is a public forum, we're getting kinda off topic here with all this "niche" stuff but if you don't wan't people other than me to give their 2 cents on the conversation you should just DM me instead of pushing other people out to a point where it's just the two of us monopolizing the discussion.

EDIT: For sake of transparency here's the post (and thread) that we're talking about. It's locked and unlisted for a reason.
https://forums.tapas.io/t/sudden-surge-of-premium-bl-comics-on-tapas/28660/47?u=niah146&source_topic_id=28998

[skicoak]

I mean even if @shazzbaa doesn't know the full context of exactly what we're talking about here that doesn't make their points invalid?

There you go again, trying to put words in my mouth to try and make it seem like I said something to @shazzbaa that I never did. I even apologized for unintentionally starting a tangent to them.

And yes... it's a public forum...put your two cents in. But stop trying to drag me into one of these...

(and then the thread gets locked by @ratique and if we're lucky some troublemakers get banned)

[GesuGesu]

I have done comics for about 2 years now (well, more like 1 year since I was on hiatus for a whole year).

There were SO MANY times that I saw people on the forums asking for advice on how to get more views, subs, or just visibility and all I could think of were not very nice things (Your art is too shitty to attract anyone's eyes at first glance; your series summary is so long I couldn't even read past that let alone starting the actual series)

If people wanted harsh reality or a "I'm just brutally honest, so suck it.", we wouldn't go around treading lightly so not to hurt people's feelings.

[shazzbaa]

how do you know when something's as [adjective] as yours

HONESTLY...... Im not sure you can know. But it's one of the factors that's in there if you're looking to find out where you stand, I think?

I guess my example is, when I first considered joining Tapas, I looked around to see if there was anything like my comic here, and I ended up finding Sanity Circus. It was in a similar-ish style, a similar slightly-fantasy genre, with some creepy moments and some funny moments and characters who were both weird and thoughtful, and I felt like our work had a similar level of expressiveness and humour and cool moments. Obviously it'd be impossible for me to say for sure, but it was close enough that I was like "okay, I have the potential to do well here." Sanity Circus updated more frequently than I did and had been running longer, so it was always gonna have a bigger audience, but I saw it as a goal to shoot for that was potentially achievable for me.

Trying to figure out who's better or worse than you IN COMICS IN GENERAL is a fool's errand I think and can get pretty silly if you step outside genres ("why is this slice of life doing so much better than my historical fiction when their drawings are less technically skilled!!!"), but I think it can be helpful to find the people who are like, executing the sort of thing that you want to execute at what feels like an achievable level!!

---

(unrelated p.s., niah holy crap, that is a heck of a compliment, thank you so much gosh!! ;o; )

But honestly, as far as original topic goes, I think it's also important to remember that like.... there are TONS of these threads. There are a lot of thoughtful posts, especially when there's a tangible and identifiable issue... but thoughtful people do not have time to develop customised strategies for every single creator that posts "aaaaa how to get more subs!!!" We give out the Standard Starter Advice a lot because, well, there's a lot of people who need the Standard Starter Advice.

If you want something more than that, then I think that it's kinda similar to asking for critique. If you just say "hey read my comic what do you think" you'll get a way less satisfying response than if you think hard about your comic and what your struggles are and post "hey, I'm unsure if my plot makes sense and I've gotten some confused readers, is it actually unclear? what can I do to make it clearer?"
In the same way, if you're looking for in-depth thought, I think you have to take the initiative to ask thoughtful questions. "I'm doing historical fiction horror comics, which I know is a little outside the mainstream, and after finishing my first chapter I want to start expanding my audience -- I'm active on social media and participate here on the forums, but are there any other steps I can take in general? And does anyone have experience with these genres or spaces that might be looking for the kind of stuff I make?" is going to get more specific thought than "I finished chapter one and I still only have 20 subs, is this normal?? what do I do????

[Gilded_Cataphract]

There's a quote about how the point of constructive criticism is to not try to make something better according to you, but to see what the person asking for criticism is trying to do and give them guidance for how to reach there. Simply shooting someone down and telling them that they can't do it and should try to do something else to give them "tough love" is unhelpful and often outright harmful if it doesn't simply get ignored as people tend to react to perceived hostility with blocking it out or avoiding it. This eventually leads to them either completely ignoring anyone's advice and doubling down on what they wanted to do or latching onto any positivity they can get and thus amplify the bad parts of their work; or they avoid it by giving up entirely and at that point you've done literally the opposite of constructive criticism.

While this is the best way to get hot take posters to shut up, making someone who spends their time bullying teenaged girls on the internet stop that behaviour or get off the internet is very different from making someone with creative aspirations give up on the creative arts entirely.

Even if someone's aspirations are seemingly overly ambitious for their means, it's much better and far more useful to advise them on how to work towards those aspirations with what they have than to just tell them to give up or worse yet prescribe them something else to aspire to and in essence back handedly asking that they do what you want. So I'd rather have a lot of rather fluffy positive encouragement posts with the occasional analytic insightful critique than a forum full of people tripping over each other trying to "drag them back down to earth."

[skicoak]

Where does it say, in this debate, that the people who are suggesting there might be some overly positive/vague comments, that they should be replaced with anything remotely negative or de-constructive comments?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Reading through this topic after a few hours, it kinda feels like the original point was somehow lost...? Either that, or everyone's forming their own definitions of what the OP was complaining about, and none of this discussion is getting anywhere...

...Might as well cast my line again. ^^ I think this topic is a good example of what they were talking about:

First of all i'd like to apologize for the big spam of new topics i opened here on Tapas only in the past few days, i just have a bunch of questions and unrsolved complex i can't find a proper answer myself for now, so i'm sorry if i keep on relying too much on the community, but to be honest i don't have many people in real life who would probably understand me on this topics, so let me vent a little here and then i'll put my heart at piece ^^" Recently i've been thinking that i don't know a…

At least, this was the topic that first got me feeling the same way. Just look through the replies.

[beta1042]

I feel like the last time I gave straight forward/blunt advice on this forum I was told I had a rude tone. I didn't say anything mean or rude, I didn't attack or name call or anything, I just gave them very raw advice, and still that was the response I was met with. So yeah I no longer bother with that unless someone directly asks me specifically to give them feedback(AKA a friend). I've pretty much stopped going on critic threads and the such, because honestly most people claim they want the truth but really they just want a pat on the back and some sugar coated sweet words. I'm happy to help people and give suggestions, but I don't want to waste my time looking at a comic/novel only to be disregarded and told I'm rude when really i"m just being honest and the truth sucks. I've got way better things to do with my time. I'm pretty sure if you feel like a lot of people are choosing their words carefully it's because they've probably seen what straightforward advice yields.

[Luminosophy]

Even if someone's aspirations are seemingly overly ambitious for their means, it's much better and far more useful to advise them on how to work towards those aspirations with what they have than to just tell them to give up or worse yet prescribe them something else to aspire to and in essence back handedly asking that they do what you want.

Right, it's there and then when the individual will decide whether it's worth pursuing after experiencing first hand the sheer amount of grind and general hard work required of them to reach their goals. Generally, I don't like assuming someone who has already put in several years of practice in either writing, art or both won't have the drive to reach it either. It shows a lot of character from the get go. I honestly really see the misguided dreamer attitudes a lot more in the "Writer LF artist 4 free" threads where the OP is very open about not wanting to put any ounce of effort in, especially when comments suggest learning to draw themselves and the OP will conjure up some lame excuse not to try.

[Luminosophy]

Once upon a time I used to do lots of critiques on Deviantart and another art blog on tumblr I frequented. On Deviantart, I was told I was cyberbullying someone for telling them that their cats and dogs were anatomically indistinguishable AFTER they opened up a thread asking for critique. On the blog - a simple critique ended up with a 4 year long stalking campaign and them making an ED page about myself and a friend. It was wild. Needless to say, I value my time so I don't waste it on people who won't appreciate it. My friends and I give each other very straightforward criticism - no fluff. I really value that we can do it because it's nice to just get really direct feedback. But for the large part, a lot of people learn that public spaces are just the absolute worst for it. I see a lot of other artists on DA also say they no longer critique random people for the same reasons. It's way too open for interpretation and a lot of people will /say/ they want criticism but really they mean praise, and they absolutely cannot emotionally handle it. I guess it shows a cynical view but I really don't want to deal with any potential drama when it turned out to be so extreme in the past.

[beta1042]

I so hear you. Finding good friends who you can comfortably talk to and critic with and learn from each other is AMAZING, unfortunately it can be really difficult to find these people, but yeah they are a blessing. Unfortunately just going out and publically asking is not gonna work, because the people brave enough to reply with blunt answers have all had their share of experiences like this.

[Gilded_Cataphract]

You're more likely to find ponces trying to be choosy beggars on places like reddit or other generalist social media sites or the unfettered hell of furry YCH diaper inflation vore that is DeviantArt than a place meant to be a dedicated collaborative art community like here.

[crayon_witch]

Ah, okay, I see what you mean now! You’re right; I did misunderstand.

I agree, the romanticized idea of Starving For Your Art is...Harmful, to say the least. Wanting popularity or money to support your career isn’t superficial in itself, and I agree that sometimes it’s treated that way in artist circles. Being ambitious is a good quality to have!

There’s nothing wrong with being fulfilled by making art itself, of course. I lean toward that camp myself! But I definitely see the concern OP has that it’s viewed as The Only Way To Make True Art. Professional artists that draw to make money aren’t fake artists. It boils down to how an individual views ‘succeeding’, and I do think we need to be careful not to dismiss someone because they define personal success differently than someone else.

Most of the time, I think the community does strike a good balance between blind encouragement and practical advice; the key is just knowing when someone needs one over the other. Which of course is different for each artist and situation!

[punkarsenic]

i like to look at it like a swimming pool - a lot of the ppl coming for the same basic advice again and again are very young and new at the game. your advice puts them in the shallow end, with a goal to A: encourage and B: set them on a good early path. if theyre up for it, theyll get the hang of all of the stuff we all already know as they go down the pool, and people will be there for them along the way with increasingly detailed and specific advice.

i think for a lot of things in art/s people will only take your advice when theyre ready. so you give them step one, and wait to see if they ask for step two.

that said, i think the repetition of the same advice (while understandable, theres lots of the same threads) gets tiring when youve heard it all

[LordVincent]

i like to look at it like a swimming pool - a lot of the ppl coming for the same basic advice again and again are very young and new at the game. your advice puts them in the shallow end, with a goal to A: encourage and B: set them on a good early path. if theyre up for it, theyll get the hang of all of the stuff we all already know as they go down the pool, and people will be there for them along the way with increasingly detailed and specific advice.

This pool comparison makes a lot of sense because there's also always that one douchebag that takes a piss in the pool.