Too idealistic?

[frsttd]

Uhum excuse me, english isn't my native language so maybe there'll be some confusing words here and there. I've been a silent reader in this forum for a while now. At first I found this forum great, and found much information about artists' life and their struggle. And as I continued to scroll and lurk around the forum, there's been a recurring theme at least for me. That is something bothers me a bit, it's the impression that the artists here are too idealistic. I know that positivity and optimism sometimes play a great role in answering struggling artists that asked a question here, and I often find it encouraging too. But. It's borderline too much and takes away from the real conversation? Exp; when some people where frustrated that their works weren't getting noticed yet, instead of pointing out things that need to be improved and how, some pointed out that the journey itself is the most important, and you have to reconsider why you do art in the first place and blabla. I know the thought behind it, but maybe for some people they really want to get famous and it's their dream to be known in the comic world or just to make some money? It feels like when someone has already said their idealistic thought, the conversation stopped.

That at one point it made me think, tapas is only for looking encouragement and sharing not really for people looking practical tips. It's not that there are not valuable tips and trick or experience sharing here, there are lots of them, and I appreciate the nice, friendly atmosphere here, but, yeah. What do you think.

In case anyone wondering I'm not looking for a fight, Just a honest conversation here.

[keii4ii]

Exp; when some people where frustrated that their works weren't getting noticed yet, instead of pointing out things that need to be improved and how, some pointed out that the journey itself is the most important, and you have to reconsider why you do art in the first place and blabla.

Because it's common courtesy to NOT give criticisms unless that's specifically what they are asking for. And no, "I'm struggling with gaining traction" is not a specific request for criticisms. Sometimes people just want to vent, and that's valid. Other times people want tips on promotion and such, and that does not equal an invitation for criticism on their comic/novel.

I have requested critiques in this forum in the past, and people have responded with critiques. People do give critiques, but you gotta ask for it in clear terms.

[frsttd]

No, that's just an example. And I didn't mean specifically only that. I said that it's encouraging for struggling artists. But the conversation shouldn't always stop at how people should reevaluate their way or something. Maybe those people have already reevaluated their reason of making comics and still feel stuck.

[keii4ii]

Maybe those people have already reevaluated their reason of making comics and still feel stuck.

In that case, I don't think "too idealistic" is the issue. I get the feeling that you're referring to multiple, separate issues in the topic... Like, "why don't people give critiques more often?" and "why do people imply it's wrong to aim for popularity?" are two very different issues with different causes/reasons.

[Jenny-Toons]

I know the thought behind it, but maybe for some people they really want to get famous and it's their dream to be known in the comic world or just to make some money?

Well honestly, I find this to be too idealistic as well.

Like...yeah, sometimes, people do into this not wanting to have fun. They want to make money, and that's cool and all. That's valid, especially if you have the skills. But they've gotta remember -- this isn't really as concise and set in stone as STEM-related careers or something you know will make money.

It's based on subjectivity and business; comics are a form of entertainment, and how it connects to a readership. Even if you DO end up working with what's popular now, you're still not guaranteed that you're gonna be successful or that, if you do get it, it will last. You'll still have to compete or work with other creators that have either been at it longer and know what they're doing or just have a knack for the industry. Even more, the market changes all of the time, so what's popular today can be gone tomorrow.

I feel the reason people insist on the reevaluation because you still get a lot of beginners who forget about the work behind it. Comics are a lot of hard, especially when there's a chance you might not make it.

If you're doing this for money, is this something you can actually keep up? Will you feel like you're wasting your time? Are you prepared to put in the effort, knowing that you might not be as popular as you'd like to be?

That, and there's no concrete step-by-step way to get popular, and I think that's what most people hear from those asking "how do I make money on comics? How do I become popular?" It sounds like someone's asking for a secret formula, and like...there is no formula. It's only based on the suggestions you decide to take.

[frsttd]

Hm....maybe that's the case, but I refer to the general that mostly answer in such positive manner that I don't have anything against at all, but at the same time it's too much. It's not about giving criticism, I already said that, but there's this like this force of idealistic way of making comics/life as an artist that's sometimes doesn't always work.

[Samuraiflame]

I don't know about you but I've seen a lot of threads asking for advice lately, especially on how to promote your comic, use social media, make merch and all that. That advice has already been given multiple times and people just don't bother reading old threads on the forums. Instead, new people are popping up every week to vent about their lack of success so obviously they're going to receive some generic encouragement and/or life advice. I don't see it as a bad thing. The veterans are telling them what they need to hear.

Basically there's plenty of practical advice available already. People are just too lazy to dig it up and research themselves.
(Sorry my filter is off today, I'm running on like 4 hours of sleep :')

[frsttd]

It's not about stardom, or advice again, I didn't say that. In fact these realistic conversation and sharing is what I'd like to hear most. And I did find them very valuable. But there's this kind of forced positivity that's going on. But maybe it's just me for being too skeptical person. I'm sorry if somehow I offended people.

[Rodimus13]

Jenny-toons is right and kinda took what I was going to say. I think we often say "Think about why you are doing this" because you do need to think about your goals and why they are like that. We also remind people that the journey is important because- frankly it is. People who are famous or have tons of subs can tell you what worked for them- but there's always that element of chance. The person selecting top picks that week liked this person's style over that one so they got promoted.

About the only thing we can say to people who choose to try and make money though this style of work is to keep at it, remember why you are doing this, and do your best we are all supporting you. Particularly since we don't know what they are trying to do art or story wise unless they tell us- and they don't aways want that.

And sometimes some of the folks here really just want some love and "Don't worry you'll get there'.

I don't think anyone here is really as idealistic as you think, we just choose to be positive instead of grouchy about the whole process.And we all know if we want the ugly truth- we just gotta ask.

[frsttd]

Guys I didn't talk specifically about advices or stardoms. Just the general idea of too idealistic approach of a conversation. I just want to clarify that.

[Jenny-Toons]

No, no -- it's a good question. Generally, the forums are on the positive side. Like yeah, we will have some negativity and some salt, but it's mostly a chill place.

I think the "forced positivity" is really just people genuinely trying to be encouraging but still realistic. Like, when I approach new creators, I don't wanna just be blunt and rude to them because they're still learning. I was once in their shoes, I understand things a bit more, and I'd rather just tell them like it is while still advising them to do what they feel is best for them.

It often works better than just "what are you complaining about? This happens all the time, deal with it" (unless this person wants that type of response )

I think from most people in the forums, and at least on my end, it's from a matter of good intentions. Unless someone is open about people being blunt and wants a rude awakening, most of us just tend to be more positive, if not neutral, so that they can see it in a different way but not feel like we're pointing fingers at them.

And I personally don't wanna scare someone into not doing art, regardless of their reasons. If they feel like this is hopeless for them while making comics, I wouldn't wanna add to that. I'd rather give something that at least lessens the blows they're feeling.

[frsttd]

Oh my god, I also loove that kind of replies hence I said I like the encouragement. But I don't know if this is just me, some will point out that the person's asking/TS should reconsider their reason of making art, or your behavior towards arts blabla, and ended up making a philosopher-like advice, when maybe what the TS needed is just an encouragement but also to look at the practical and honest side. Sometime when a philosopher came and they ended up with a really idealistic advice, "I make my art just for fun, if you look for blabla maybe you should reconsider blabla" and I was just like, well, maybe that works for you and your situation, but maybe TS has different situation. I'm sorry I think this thread is getting nowhere and I don't really have the ability to explain well.

[qwerty]

About the seemingly too idealistic / positive tone -

Even when the truth is "negative", there are usually ways to express it in a kind and positive way. Personally, if I knew that I could be really blunt and honest with someone without them getting offended or hurt, I usually would. But we're all strangers on the Internet, and some people are more sensitive than others, so when harsh truths need to be expressed, most people realize it's best to do it delicately.

And I'm sure there actually is a certain amount of "nobody wants to stick their neck out and be the meanie who calls out the shit when everyone else is being nice and ignoring it" every once in a while. In general though I don't think the positivity here is a problem. If you explicitly ask for blunt, practical, and/or specific advice then I'm sure there will be people willing to give it - here's a nice thread from recently as an example:

Whenever I read a new discovered comic, the first pages decide if I keep on reading or leave it be. I think this is the case with a lot of people. Now the question, is your beginning interesting enough to keep potential readers? Let's find out togehter! :slight_smile: - read the first 3-5 pages of the comic above you and rate from 1 (lowest) to 10(most likely) if the start would make you continue to read. Write a short phrase, what you liked and what needed some more work. - Now post the lin…

[Jenny-Toons]

Ahh...well, sometimes, you get people who are on both extremes of the artist side.

You get the "Do what's popular now, and you'll get famous. Forget making a story, that's for losers"

You also get the "Money isn't important as long as you have your passion. Starve for your art"

I think, in that case, it really just comes to deciding who you will listen to. From what I've seen, most people will tell you to weigh the options and know what's important to you. Once you do that, then you can proceed with practicing your art, getting on social media, having partnerships, and back up plans. That's mostly where my advice always lies -- how you do it is mostly up to you. Making art for fun is chill. Making art for money is also chill -- just know exactly what you wanna do and be willing to stick to it XD

With forums, it can be hard to dig through the advice you get to find the ones that will really help you. I don't think a lot of the creators here are too idealistic. A lot of them even have jobs that come first before the comics and have ways to make outside income. I feel the ones who are on the extreme ends, or the ones you've come across, are among the voices that are the loudest. XD

[frsttd]

Nah I'm sorry i didnt word my sentences well, fully my fault. I meant those idealistic that art should be meaningful and you shouldn't concern yourself of making money and such. It's not about how to give people advice and not hurting them, I'm sorry again this is my own fault for being incapable of explaining myself xD

[ratique]

I think you are bringing up a good point, frsttd. This forum is very friendly and you will rarely come across truly harsh reality checks, even if that would be helpful at times.

Here's the thing: Most of us are creators and understand the struggles of everyone here. All of us are down sometimes, or aren't sure of our skills or how to move forward. And because of that we also know that often all you need is encouragement.

That may come across as being too positive, since some of us would really need a reality check. Something like that shouldn't come from a forum however. Instead it should come from someone the creator knows in real life, who has more information than we do: How long has the creator been working on this, is there improvement, how old is the creator, etc.

For us to provide this kind of feedback here will ultimately turn into something closer to online bullying - we just don't have enough information and could inevitably destroy a young creator's ego... someone who may have become someone truly successful otherwise.

A public forum like this one just isn't the best place for true, raw feedback.

I get where you're coming from and you're not wrong with what you've been seeing. If you're ever looking for more detailed advice and have nobody in real life to help, I recommend making friends with people on the forums and asking them for advice in a more private setting. That's where I always got the best feedback from.

[frsttd]

I've seen and read of the posts of those both types you mentioned. And I do think that the second one is the loudest and sometimes kinda forcing people to stop thinking differently and stopped the conversation. I'm just a casual reader that don't really looking for advice, but just like to lurk around here silently, and those idealistic posts bother me the most. Maybe it's because of my own skeptical personality haha.

[frsttd]

Thank you for everyone for answering and having a civil conversation. I was afraid this will become a war/fight or something haha.

[Jenny-Toons]

Naaah, you're cool XD

We've all run into those types of creators before, and most of us are kinda quick to counteract their suggestions in more realistic ways. Like, I really do love making art. I honestly do. But I also love having money and making sure I live comfortably.

[ratique]

Oh just give it a few more hours... I'm joking, you definitely haven't brought up anything that people should take offense to ;D