currently it seems like the Comic Panda thing is a big piece of evidence for the "TOS is trying to screw us over" theory. Thanks for asking 
Bonus question: has Tapastic done anything directly for the creators they hurt with the Comic Panda thing, or made any sort of public statements about it in the past?
I remember that other site lifting our comics. They took mine too. And Tapastic acted fast to stop them. I would like to hope the company has learned from their past mistakes. I would love to believe that they truly want to make a safe place for creators. But they also tried putting language in their TOS that conflicted with contracts I already had. Are people unreasonably scared about this? It really all depends on what people are trying to do with their comics. Letting a company use legalese to play around with creators' rights is a slippery slope and people absolutely have the right to be alarmed by it.
Creators are probably fine here, but the industry as a whole is very... well, prone to IP issues. People can stay or go as they please and shaming them for their reasons one way or another is really unfair. Tap claims this clause was meant to help creators but there was nothing stopping them from offering that option from the start rather than making it a barrier between a creator and an outside contract. In fact, I'm rather interested in as to how Tapastic has any idea what their creators were signing contracts for considering Tapastic would not have been involved in any way with said contracts. It would have been none of their business.
[side note] Mods are unpaid volunteers from the community. We aren't staffers, nor are we attached to Tapas in anyway. We have our own thoughts and opinions of situations and are allowed to voice them like everyone else in the community.
I honestly don't see anything mean spirited in Uzuki's comment, other than being frankly blunt honest. Leaving is a good option if you're unhappy with a site. Staying somewhere that makes you mad at each turn doesn't make much sense. It's healthy and empowering for us creators to keep in mind that we have this ability. Sites like Tapas are merely platform sites and it's possible for creators to build and grow a readership on any alternative site, collective, group, and/or your own personal site.
Right, so the good news is that the clause is gone. For some people that's not enough, but some people can never be pleased, yeah?
So here's the deal breaker. Obviously the narrative driven by the dev team is that they want to give creators options, and I am down with options. I think everybody is, and empowering creators is something I'd love to see, especially with future publishing/sales opportunities. But of course it has to be optional. Tapas, we WANT more tools, but of course we're gonna defend the rights to our content. We're hoping to see a very, very clairvoyant clause that would more accurately accomplish what you say you wanted, no shady business.
C'mon dude, Uzuki's comment was dripping with condescending attitude. Volunteer or not, some professional behavior would be appreciated from anybody who wants to keep the community clean/positive. Uzuki wasn't even responding to me and I felt offended, hahaha! Real appreciation for volunteer work, but please don't talk down to anybody. You're language was blunt, Cindy, but Uzuki's was much more than just blunt.
Look, I get that nerves are pretty frazzled at this point after all of the discussion and misunderstanding today, but this is not doing Tapas any favors to keep creators around or to keep a good image.
Uzuki's reply, right now, is being passed around on the comics Twitter as just another reason that Tapas doesn't give a shit about creators, because of the attitude that comes off in their reply. You realize right now, the mods that answer these are seen as, whether you like it or not, the acting PR for the Tapas community, right?
It sucks to have that on your shoulders, but god, if you don't want to cement in people's minds how shitty this ordeal was, reread before you post and really think about what you say and how it'll come off.
Oh for crying out loud. You know, from READER POV, you all who getting selfish and didn't care about your reader here on Tapas and don't want to hear what the staff said can just leave.
Good riddance.
And I can assure you, I am not the only one who think that way. There are many app only reader and do you think they won't get angry when you, the selfish arrogant author who didn't even want to hear what the staff say, just removing all your stuff without even giving a chance for the reader to react?
Who the heck you think you are? Sure, Tapas is build upon a creator, but you aren't the only creator in the universe you know. You want to get out from Tapas and host your own web site? Go ahead. Maybe then you will see what it means to running a comic website.
Is it that hard to just wait ONE freaking day before you decided 'oh I will have my own comic website and be king/queen' there! HUH!?
But of course, why you guys even bother care about your reader right? It's your comic. you can just take it out and don't give a shit about your reader.
And you want the mod bow down to you and do all your bidding. Wow. See the trend here?
Uzuki's "just leave" comments seemed rather... aggressive and immature. I did not realize they were a mod. And yes, people CAN leave. The issue is that many people don't want to. They love Tapastic and want to stay, they just don't want to be afraid for their rights as creators. This kind of 'just leave' attitude will only drive away people that wanted to stay. And it will keep away others who were thinking about joining. This is exactly the kind of attitude that was shown to longform comic creators years ago, when it was made clear that Tapastic was only interested in mobile-ready comics. There's nothing wrong with having a niche, and there is nothing wrong with defending your right as a site to cater to whatever market works for you, but the attitude is highly unwelcoming. You yourself are rather graceful about it and that's how mods should be handling such things.
And this is why I stay away from Twitter. Text on the internet can be so bare bones that without hearing the inflections of a person's voice you can't really get the full picture of what they're saying. And another issue I have is twitter is so to-the-minute it's hard for people to be patient there to wait for complete and definitive answers on topics such as this. One snarky quip to the wrong person who takes offense and your reputation is ruined. It doesn't help that if you type one thing there it gets cast to the wind immediately. Like this clause had been in the ToS for TWO weeks before it blew up today.
This is just a mess... so pretty much stay if you wanna, leave if you gotta hahaha
I do agree with @Alli (I'm so sad to see TQ leave btw) it isn't Tapas' business on what contracts are being signed out there by creators. I thought it was very... monopolizing of them. How would they even know when a creator signs somewhere else? Comics leave Tapas all the time to other host websites, I don't know why now it has become an issue worth addressing.
Anyway, this whole mess has just driven me to really make a website for my comic and use Tapas as a mirror site. It was bound to happen but this has just moved things to a tighter schedule.
Oof, I should have expected some backlash from that post. Ah well, here we go.
Please, don't judge the rest of the mod staff - who are here by volunteering, not paid or affiliated with Tapas media in any way - based on one salty egg. That's unfair to the other wonderful people that have dedicated and continue to dedicate their time to this community. Judge me all you want, but leave the others alone. Thank you.
I'd like to stress again, none of the moderators here work for Tapas. We are volunteer members of the community, period. So no, I'm not trying to put a noose around anyone's neck, and I am not creating these clauses that you're all so upset about.
The mod team are creators just like you. And just like you, the members of the mod team get concerned with new updates, design changes, and ToS updates just like everyone else. We email the staff like crazy with questions and concerns, we tag Michael in the forums whenever we need him to answer a staff-related question, we also get angry and upset when we're left wondering what the literal hell is going on. Even I have considered leaving Tapas during rough periods like this. Maybe not this one specifically, but plenty of times in the past where it seemed unclear where Tapas is going. The key is not to jump ship the moment you see an iceberg - it might just be a hunk of snow.
Whoof. I'm more concerned that people are taking these as reputable sources at face value. Because the unpaid volunteer mod team of the forums are not a very official good source if you're looking for the company's morals straight from the company's mouth. See above.
Also, are people mentioning me on Twitter? Because that's awesome. I've finally made it in the world, ma! /s
But we really can't answer your questions more than anyone else here. Even the mod team have been waiting for an official statement from Tapas on this whole ToS dispute. We can answer your questions as best we can, but that's as good as it gets - as best we can. We haven't been told much else from what staff has already told you.
So in that regard, you're all just as much PR representatives as the mod team.
TL ; DR: I am not sorry for what I said, as it is my opinion just like everyone else's opinion here, whether you agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. I am sorry if it offended some of you personally, but please know that was not my intention.
Now that that's done, I'm going to switch from Tapas user mode to mod mode:
This thread isn't about me. My 15 minutes of fame is up lol Let's get back on topic please <3
I really like what the clause was offering, even if it was a complete misnomer. I'd love to monetize Time Gate to the point of being financially stable in the future - being able to leverage offers between comic platforms would be dope af if it ever became an offer/option. I mean, why take $1000 when another place is offering $3000? Imagine if that other place was Tapas - you get to keep posting to the place you love, and you get paid three times the amount you were originally going to get paid for posting somewhere else. I just hope that the removal of the clause in the ToS doesn't mean these options are completely off the table. That would suck for those who could have benefited from it 
Honestly, tons of people on twitter think the ROFR clause is still in the TOS even though it was removed a couple of hours ago. Then the extreme exaggeration of the clause itself that make it seem like Tapas is out to steal your IP, your family, your house, and your life. Especially some people saying that they just snuck it into the TOS like...no...they made announcements of changes to the TOS. Not to mention, companies change their TOS all the time.
I definitely understand professionals who've dealt with that sort of behavior from publishing companies (akin to how you apparently can't develop anything while working under any animation studio because it becomes their IP) and the paranoia makes sense, but some people are definitely blowing things out of proportion.
I care about my readers. Especially the ones who pay to read what I create or (at least) don't act entitled to my hard work. So, in that way, I guess I care about most of my readers.
Please refer to above re: Entitlement. You are not entitled to enjoy the hard work of others for free. However, creators should be entitled to retain the intellectual property rights for their creations unless they choose to sell those rights.
That said, I'm glad to see that Tapas has removed the clause. I'm still disturbed by the fact that it was inserted to begin with. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that it was done on my behalf without my consent -- even if that is somehow the case, it's still sorta like, shame on you for thinking that you somehow know what's in my best interest and acting on that? You're not my Dad, Tapastic.
Not fair to the readers? What about the people who work hard to make this shit? What do you expect? People panicked and left because of Tapastic's poor wording, they feared their intellectual property was in danger. I agree that they should have at least waited until Tapastic's response before leaving the site completely, but I wouldn't say this is unfair to readers because it's very easy to just go read the comic they enjoy on a different platform.
I think what @ahhvecadoes meant was that the mods are seen as PR for the Tapas community in sense of how you treat the users, even if you don't have the answers. What's being commented the most on Twitter is that people expect more professionalism from a moderator, volunteer or not. It's less about the content and more about the tone of the posts.
I know everyone has their own opinions, but someone labeled as a moderator is seen as having some kind of endorsement from Tapastic, so there's some responsibility there.
So this, basically.
Today has been a mess and a lot of people are stressed out, but I think we can keep the discussion respectful! (this goes to everyone, there are people being rude and/or mean on both sides of the issue, that's not going to get us anywhere)
D'aw, look at how much less salty the conversation has been, especially compared to the forums when the support system was removed. I'm proud of you Tapas community, I'm proud <3
Stay fresh
insert Callie and Marie
you know i should stop engaging people and telling them to chill on twitter people are really really bent out of shape about this-- this whole thing is a huge out of proportion misunderstanding and i seem to be on the unpopular side of this argument what shouldn't even be an argument BAH
you are the hero we all need @GoldenPlume lol
@scullpanda Twitter has the power to be a great communication tool, but like many instant messaging applications, it also has the power to become a nauseating echo chamber of hate and self-loathing. I've been seeing some of the circlejerks and miscommunication and such there, and I'm just choosing to stay away from it. The time spent arguing with people in 140 characters or less is time we could be spending just working on our comics lol 
(and the latter tends to be much more enjoyable and/or fulfilling). yet here i am just browsing reddit at 3:30 AM > o < ......
I am saying this as a person who isn't inclined to automatically agree with Uzuki: I don't think they had attitude at all.
Especially not when compared to the person they replied to. The person they replied to made passive agressive (and sometimes plain agressive) remarks to people in this thread, kept saying "I WANNA LEAVE HOW CAN I DO THAT YOU ARE KEEPING ME STUCK!!!". Uzuki's reply was simple and to the point since apparently this person doesn't do too well with legalese. People kept saying that posting on other places or leaving wouldn't be a problem and they refused to understand so the way I saw it they were basically demanding a clear cut reply.
I am not surprised that people are spreading that reply taken out of that context though, still not even recognizing that the "offensive" part is gone. People like to spread drama and burn witches, and they hate to have to recognize that there is no longer a reason to do so. Noone dares stand up to them because then they, too, get burnt.
This type of behaviour is primitive, immature and unprofessional. I can understand being paranoid or worried for your rights, but if that's what you truly were you would look at the facts:
Looking at this, anyone who was worried about their rights should no longer be worried, and they should realize there is no reason to spread out-of-context comments and other crap to make it seem like tapas is a corporate asshole that's trying to kidnap your mother and sell her to the mafia or something. If you still want to leave, then just do so. Of course tapas doesn't want to lose site users and creators, but if you are only hanging around to be passive agressive to other users and ask how you can leave or talk about how tapas is just trash no matter what they do and is "going to shit", then you obviously don't have much hope for this platform and you aren't very nice company for us other creators and users. Do everyone a favor and move somewhere you feel more comfortable, but do this in the mature manner: Without overblowing things on twitter and spreading rumors. You are killing opportunities for tapas creators that are staying.
The amazingly crazy thing about this whole ordeal is we went through this very madness weeks ago when the revised ToS first came out and the website went from Tapastic to Tapas. No one really seemed to notice the changes then...
Talk about delayed response. Anyhow, we're essentially weeks into the future vs. most of the community right now and it's all good out here in Tomorrow Land.
Just breathe everyone.
If anything we just wish that staff would spend more time communicating prior to doing these huge changes to the website and stuff. People are putting 1000s of hours and $1000s into their webcomics and staff really needs to become more sensitive to how important these works are to us.
Guess when there's 30,000+ series it can get to the point of taking creators for granted . . . or something.
Really can't answer this one. Only staff can.
I can't speak for others, but I did not receive any notification of these changes having been made, and I have been in a mad deadline crunch on freelance work for the past couple of months, and have therefore not checked in regularly on the forums either. I had entirely missed this addition to the ToS.
It is entirely possible that whatever notification I was supposed to receive just never made it all the way to me, but the fact remains that it didn't. I can only assume I am not alone in this - and it is probably contributing to this delayed response to the change.
I am glad to see the clause has been removed, as I do not feel it belonged in the ToS to begin with. It is too broad, and I don't feel comfortable giving Tapas blanket consent to Right of Refusal to my work in that manner. First Right of Refusal is, in and of itself, not a horrible idea, but it is normally part of a contract negotiation and is something that a publishers pays the creator for, which is not what this was.
If Tapas wants to help creators, then there are better ways to go about it than this ToS-change. Creating a separate submissions-service, or restricting this type of clause to the Premium-content creators only would be good steps. And I agree that in general, Tapas needs to be better at communicating these things prior to the change being made.
I have not yet decided whether to keep my comics here or take them elsewhere, but this whole thing - the ToS-changes, the response from Tapas, etc., - has certainly made me consider my options.
I get that, the problem is 90% of creators dont use the forums or even know it exists!
This clause is normally used in publishing house when signing a contract for 6 figures! Not in a TOS of a free services, thats the crux of the issue. Because of what the clause could possibly do, the price of using it is very high.
The spread of this wasnt just twitter either, I'm in a big FB group that basically encompasses the whole of the UK indie press, thats UK publishers, illustrators, writers and artists they more or less act as an union. They view of the clause wasn't glowing. Thats rather damaging on the whole and this is to people that use these types of contracts regularly.
as @annalandin said I personally I didnt recieve a notification regarding these changes also. For a clause this overreaching it should have been declared as plain as the nose on your face.
Now did I think Tapas WOULD of been IP grabbing? eh, well no not really but greater artist have been stung with less. Given the consistent shift in Tapas company goals (youtude of comics, short form over longform, everyone needs to do vertical scrolling, we do books now) its had to say that ignoring a breach in personally copyright (techincally a FROR does somewhat override your copyright to excerise use of the IP) may of biten lots of creators in the backside later if and when the company changes it corporate goals again or a publisher you pitch to doesnt like the idea of responding to that particular clause.
It could have been a paper tiger but that could have been ugly.
Now I know that tapas ... means well but can go about it the whole wrong way, (the road to hell is pathed with good intentions!) So I wasnt going to jump ship until I heard a response and the removal is fine with me, great even, since it kinda left me with a problem of self publishing (yes the clause covers that 'any right to excerise use') and I think a more open approach, an opt in approach would be best for the platform!
Now we just wait for the storm to die off and put the mess behind us
I think the backlash came from how shady it sounded :/
Why tell people they are obligated to submit their work to you for negotiation in the first place?
If you're such a great and fair publisher, the authors should flock to you in the first place.
You probably should advertise your role as a publisher better towards your creators instead of doing that, remind them that you can help them with this and surely better than most of the other guys lol
I'm just a reader, but I'm kinda looking forward on how you'll spin that next time, because I doubt you'll leave it at that
Look, my guy, as creators, we owe you nothing. We work our socks off to produce fresh new content for basically no compensation (unless you count the couple of pennies from ads/tips lmao).
If we didn't do that, there wouldn't be anything for readers TO read. I'm all for listening to both sides of the story but please first remove your entitled attitude towards the content produced on this site.
We're not being selfish. This is our content, that we sacrificed our time to create. We have every right to be suspicious of any shady looking clauses that may affect our rights regarding what we do with our own art.
I don't wanna be a salty sue, but please think about those who are producing the content you read, for free.
Tapas made multiple notifications of the ToS change, including a yellow banner at the top of the main page that stated ToS had been changed, asking everyone to read it through. They did not brush this under the rug.
They didn't intend to tell people this though, that was a miscommunication and a misunderstanding type of deal.
As I said, if they had malicious intent they would have been quick to strike the most popular comics with that part of the ToS BEFORE it got backlash, and they wouldn't have made a forum thread and a notification at the top of the site. They would have made a small notification somewhere at the bottom to use as an excuse. They never did this, which should be a sign to everyone that there was never malicious intent and we all need to calm down.
Good morning everyone. I find that the core of this issue is still unaddressed, namely what exactly we're discussing here. Removing the TOS has taken away the sword dangling above our collective head, so I hope the discussion can be a bit calmer now, but questions remain.
So here I have some questions that if answered in non-legalese I think would clear up a lot smoke, because there are so many assumptions floating around right now. There are those seeing this as a safe bargaining chip, and there are those that see a potential threat to their IP, both based on wildly different interpretations of the loosely worded clause.
So here goes:
Again, that the TOS have been deleted doesn't eliminate these questions, because it's not just about the clause itself, but tapas' intentions. Was it an IP grab, or a failure to write good TOS that everyone understands?
The sad truth is that mods aren't just like everyone else where the forums are concerned. You may not be directly connected to tapas, but you all still represent its community. When you guys act unprofessionally, it sticks out more and makes the community look bad.
^^^ This is exactly why Uzuki's comment, while his own, is still damaging to the site and the community in general. It's a bit of an uncomfortable truth, but for the average person, perception matters more than truth. It doesn't matter that mods are unpaid volunteers to people looking at this from the outside, all they see when they see a mod acting unprofessionally, is more reason to stay away from tapas. You guys have a greater impact on the site's/community's image than you realize.
The moderators do become a bit of a "face" for tapas in instances like this, yes. However I feel that they have been polite considering the levels of shit that has been thrown in this thread.
Each and every single individual on twitter is also responsible to, as adults, check facts and circumstances before spreading things assuming them to be truth. They are not doing this. That, in my opinion, makes them unprofessional and immature.
It's high school tactics. Taking things out of context, twisting them and spreading them as a blown up rumor is shit you'd expect to se teenagers doing. Not rational adults trying to be professional creators.
I understand that people had concerns. So did I when I first heard of this thing. But if you have concerns, the best course of action is to stop, think, consider the circumstances and facts in a reasonable manner, and NOT just air out all your assumptions on twitter. This would have been acceptable if what you were spreading were confirmed facts. It wasn't and still isn't. You are spreading false information and hurting tapas creators in the process.
I understand that you want to protect people who work hard on their comics, but by spreading false information you are hurting the exact people that you are trying to protect. This is why you need to factcheck and be patient before spreading rumors.
Unfortunately, not every adult is a philosopher, eager to think first and act later, as much as I'd like to see it. That's just the nature of human beings, there's an unfortunate tendency to react first.(like I said: Perception<<<< Truth )
Most folks posting on social media aren't worried about looking professional, especially if it's their personal account. Unlike forum mods, individual people only represent themselves, there's not much you can do about how they respond to things.
Also I would like for Tapastic to fix the front page in pc, as other creators and me say (it's a little too much)
I like @JohnVincent idea of:
Notifications on the site are not enough when a large percentage of users only use Tapastic as a mirror. A major change like that to the Terms of Service deserved at least an e-mail, as that's the equivalent of written communication documenting the change in this digital age, and I checked, there was not one. So weeks ago when other people were worried about this, I didn't know. The moment someone showed it in a Facebook group yesterday was the first I heard about it.
I'm glad to see the clause is gone, but notifications on a site are not enough for a Terms of Service change.
I just think that in order to avoid a falling out like this, before they do something like this again and add more clauses, they should notify people before hands, see what the majority of users would react?
Okay guys, the discussion is just completely off-topic now. A lot of us, myself included, haven't gotten a chance to stop, breathe, and collect our bearings since yesterday, so I'm gonna lock this thread for a bit so we can do just that. After a few hours, I'll open it again, and HOPEFULLY the second attempt will go smoother. For now though, there's really nothing left to discuss as the situation has been resolved; I don't want y'all to feel like I'm barring your voice, but we're sorta just mulling around in a circlejerk, which isn't good for anyone lol
Go on out there and enjoy your Friday <3
closed May 19, '17
For now, we feel that we need to really reflect on the spirit of the clause and see what creators are comfortable with and until then we won't be implementing this offer.
We hope to expand the editorial and content team with new members that are more community focused. This will entail creating community events and more open dialogue in the future.
As for the transgressions during the Comic Panda iteration, almost all of that occurred prior to my arrival at the company. To the best of my knowledge, the first iteration of Comic Panda was never intended to be public facing. The site was under what is known as an alpha launch, which basically means that it was meant to test out the theory of the site and some of the basic functionality, kind of like a proof of product. To better populate the site and test with live data, I believe the content team at the time wrongfully used actual comics without permission. These were not monetized, and meant specifically to show early investors early concepts of the site.
Of course, all of those transgressions go against the ethos of Tapas, as we've always championed creators' rights and freedoms while publishing on the platform. And as you've mentioned, have performed DMCA, and other take downs on behalf of creators.
The staffers during that time are no longer with Tapas.
During the time in which the TOS was updated to include to the Right of First Refusal, the staff at no point enforced or sought out to enforce the clause to interfere with any creators.
Our original intent was to make competitive offers to creators or introduce them to our various partners to help, whether it was in regards to the production and distribution of merchandise, printing, etc.
I, unfortunately, cannot comment on the ROFR or ROFO clarification as I, personally, don't have the legalese to properly explain. But I will ask a fellow staffer to look into it and bring some clarification.
We will be revisiting our methodology in how we deploy our messaging in regards to TOS updates.
When the TOS was updated, we sent a desktop notification, front page ribbon (located above the spotlight section) which required dismissal, in-app pop-up as well as social media and forum posts. Of course, this does not guarantee the visibility of the TOS updates, so we will try out best to improve upon this.
We do small focus groups for our updates, but will hopefully expand this in the future.
There are a few comments that have derailed the discussion that I'll be archiving from this topic.
Please refrain from attacking one another, and please keep a cordial decorum.
I understand everyone's frustrations with the recent turn of events, and we promise that we are listening to everyone's feedback and are trying to make better and more informed decisions.
opened May 19, '17
Why would Tapas have inserted the Right of First Refusal clause into the Terms of Service, rather than reached out to creators that it was interested in making an offer to, or offer advice to?
For a lot of folks who have raised their voices on this issue, it's the inability to reconcile what you're saying with what logic and experience dictate that lingers. For me, at the very least, that's the unanswered question.
We had hoped that this was a scalable solution to our over 23,000 creators.
Of course, as many have mentioned, a Right of First Refusal does not belong in the terms of service of an open publishing platform, especially at the start of the relationship with the creator.
Whoof, that's almost a scary thing to hear! But in a way it makes sense, there's nothing wrong with refection in the aim to improve.
For an honest question that first answer almost sounds defensive, which makes me think maybe you're short on patience? =P It's okay Michael, you don't have to stroke anyone's ego or candy coat things, be honest. Neither of these answers actually answers her questions,
which actually makes for more frustration. If the questions were answered directly, I assure you it'd have been more effective in assuaging concerns. ^^ We're artists with integrity Michael, we can handle the truth. =D However, you do answer her last question with an honest answer and that really makes me happy, even though that answer is "I don't know, I'll get someone to clarify for you". If you addressed all the questions this way, that'd be great. You guys have stated your intentions a good number of times, I don't think there's much confusion that that's your statement for intention. =P
Heck to the yes.
I can almost see you rolling your eyes typing this out, hahahaha! I saw the notification but I dismissed it because I trust Tapas, so I didn't think I needed to bother checking. But I do agree, for something like this, an email would be a much more effective manner of communication.
It's good to hear directly from a dev team member, man. Thanks for doing what you can to communicate. I hope you or someone else can more directly and clearly answer @Devika's questions though, because I really am still curious as to the precise answers to those- it's the details of this clause that made it the monster it was/is.
