Updating the Fresh Category--Change it for Comics Under 2000 Subs

[JRHoch]

What barriers do you think they create that decreases views? I'm not arguing with you; in fact I like the spirited debate between you and @Croik.

[skicoak]

What barriers do you think they create that decreases views?

There's some debate on this... but repeated tests from our team show that traffic we drive from Facebook (and to a less degree Imgur) don't show up on our viewcounts on Tapas because they don't have/haven't signed into the Tapas app.

So if you're selling ads based on potential viewers... it seems counter productive to discount those outside your app, and not strive to find greater potential for creators to reach readers inside the app.

[JRHoch]

So on Facebook and Imgur, you have direct links to various Tapas comics and those views are not being counted. I've done, recently, a small bit of advertising on TWC and can tell you that those views do show up. Unfortunately, most of those people read my comic but are not on Tapas and so they can't comment or subscribe. I'm curious if other people have seen something similar, where people read, and then just leave without ever deciding to join Tapas.

[skicoak]

Unfortunately, most of those people read my comic but are not on Tapas and so they can't comment or subscribe.

Yeah, comments and likes figure into Tapas's internal algorithms so not pushing readers to subscribe has other consequences too.

[JRHoch]

So are you saying they should allow likes and comments even if someone isn't a subscriber? Would that create a potential spam problem? I don't know the logistics of these things. I still own a toaster.

[Croik]

You're just listing the basics of any comic hosting site... and a tipping option that creates a revenue stream directly for Tapas.

Yes? It's a comic hosting site. We are being provided a service we would normally have to pay for ourselves, for free. How many free services are you expecting them to offer, when the cost of offering them outweighs their rewards? Users and their engagement are a limited resource, so giving more promotion opportunities to new and/or unpopular series means taking it away from the premium series that are already proven to make a profit. It's asking a lot when you're already getting service for free.

[JRHoch]

Many of the premium comics do so well BECAUSE they get so much promotion. Perhaps Tapas would have a deeper bench if they paid attention to more comics.

I'm not saying every comic should get an equal share, but more comics that readers may choose to follow is a good thing for Tapas and the community.

I'm sure Tapas could come up with a list of requirements that would eliminate many comics that would never become popular; there could be a Discover tab where you had to have a certain number of likes/subs/comments/postings but not at the numbers Premium comics currently have.

[skicoak]

We are being provided a service we would normally have to pay for ourselves, for free.

There's so many sites offering the same basic services now though...many with no obligation to pressure your social media circle into registering an account.

Users and their engagement are a limited resource, so giving more promotion opportunities to new and/or unpopular series means taking it away from the premium series that are already proven to make a profit.

That's a helluva catch 22! You don't market/promote anything until you can make a direct profit off it based on it's ability to get popular without support?!?

There's a lot of rough math to this place... but what keeps popping up is when the variety of strips get more exposure... they get more subscribers/likes/comments. Exposure that can't be reached without site support.

[Croik]

There's so many sites offering the same basic services now though...many with no obligation to pressure your social media circle into registering an account.

Which sites? Most sites that allow posting/liking/commenting on anything require that you sign up, including all social media sites.

That's a helluva catch 22! You don't market/promote anything until you can make a direct profit off it based on it's ability to get popular without support?!?

Yes? I'm sorry, I don't understand what's unusual about this. If you want someone to spend their time/money/effort promoting you, you either have to have an existing following, or you have to be GOOD, just like any time you submit to a slush pile. Tapas is not lacking in talented and/or successful creators offering up their work for the writers camps and incubator and such, if you want to compete in that arena you gotta fight long and hard for it.

I'm sure Tapas could come up with a list of requirements that would eliminate many comics that would never become popular; there could be a Discover tab where you had to have a certain number of likes/subs/comments/postings but not at the numbers Premium comics currently have.

If it's curated by staff, that's the same as New And Noteworthy. If it's an algorithm, it's just trending minus the big guns. But trending is already pretty fair, I see smaller series on there all the time. And in either case you're still putting an arbitrary number on what does or doesn't deserve the bump.

I'm all for creators having more chances for visibility, but I still maintain that better searching/tagging is a much higher priority in that regard, tbh.

[skicoak]

Which sites? Most sites that allow posting/liking/commenting on anything require that you sign up, including all social media sites.

Are you mixing tangents up? You seemed to have crossed up the existence of other comic hosting providing the same basic services as Tapas with the problematic nature of Tapas only allowing views that are attached to registered/active accounts. It's links any attempt to get successful to our abilities to sell our projects with the same vigor we sign up new Tapas Accounts.

I ,optimistically, hope it's a symbiotic relationship. Otherwise, I pushed 50+ friends and family into a pyramid scheme designed to only push Tapas's premium content.

[SleepingPoppy]

but my contention is Tapas is set up in such a way that you're forced to promote them, as much as yourself, if you wish to succeed on their platform.

I mean, I think for Tapas the bonus is that simply by promoting yourself, you inherently promote them. They do utilize creators as a means of educating users on how to use the tapas app, which I have mixed feelings about. But I don't think there's anything predatory about this-- I realize you're not necessarily saying it's predatory. But as long as tapas is also investing in promoting themselves, and not purely relying on free content creators, doesn't seem like a bad thing?

If we're looking at it as a symbiotic relationship, it needs a balance.

What would make it more balanced? Or is it just the view counter thing? Honestly I've never tested it myself, but I always assumed the view counter counted any views, not just those from users with an account logged in. I'm not 100% willing to take your word for it, mostly because I don't have much information on what you did to test this, and if you were accounting for variables like ad block.

It would be nice to get staff word on the matter? Otherwise I'll look into it (for the sake of my own confirmation), and perhaps we can have multiple people try and test it. Would definitely be good to know for certain!

[Zaboem]

In a perfect world, it would be great to have an automated Fresh List at the top and front of the app. In this world, Tapas has to think about liabilities. There is no human curation invovled, so a reprints of copyrighted materials do show up. Tapas would not want to a create a system where it showcases front and center a stolen comic.

[Croik]

Are you mixing tangents up? You seemed to have crossed up the existence of other comic hosting providing the same basic services as Tapas with the problematic nature of Tapas only allowing views that are attached to registered/active accounts. It's links any attempt to get successful to our abilities to sell our projects with the same vigor we sign up new Tapas Accounts.

You said there are "so many sites" that offer hosting but don't pressure people to sign up, I'm asking what those are, because I only know this and Webtoon well, and Webtoon requires you to register if you want to sub, like, or comment on series. Unless you're specifically talking about the ability of friends and family to click on your comic and count as a single view that earns you $0.001?

Is that what you're saying? That your friends and family should be able to inflate your ad rev by one penny without registering, because registering for a free app is just too much to ask of people who want to support you but don't care about comics?

Because that sounds like a very good reason why Tapas shouldn't allow that, lol.

[SleepingPoppy]

Is that what you're saying? That your friends and family should be able to inflate your ad rev by one penny without registering, because registering for a free app is just too much to ask of people who want to support you but don't care about comics?

I'm just going to put out there that I don't think thats remotely what he's saying? It looks to me that his actual concern is that he could pay money to drive traffic to his comic, and that tapas would benefit from the ad rev of that traffic, while he neither gets the ad rev or views from it.

Whether or not this is happening is up for debate, and I think Tapas wants people to sign up, so I doubt there intention is for this to happens so they can greedily eat up all that ad revenue without splitting it.

I'm pretty sure his reference to family and friends signing up is just meant to say "I've been promoting this to people I care about, and I'll be mad if my hard work enriches tapas, but they do nothing to help me/creators like me succeed". I personally disagree that thats happening, but I think thats what he meant.

Pardon me if I'm wrong on any accounts @skicoak and @Croik

Edit: just adding that mostly I am otherwise in agreement with Croik, I just felt like this mischaracterized ski's point of view, and wanted to offer clarity just in case it was helpful. =P

[skicoak]

Unless you're specifically talking about the ability of friends and family to click on your comic and count as a single view that earns you $0.001?

Don't be silly. You're the only one tying a specific numeric value to views... you continue to mix and match your points. How can views have no value in driving ad revenue and yet somehow also be a vital metric in deciding if a series should get pushed? It can't be both.

You said there are "so many sites" that offer hosting but don't pressure people to sign up, I'm asking what those are, because I only know this and Webtoon well, and Webtoon requires you to register if you want to sub, like, or comment on series.

WebComics App hasn't pushed us to commit a sign up drive, comments are registered as visitor if from a non-account, and most importantly... even if the numbers appear a little cooked, our being featured/pushed has translated to additional followers. It's exactly the point I repeatedly make here...if the sites don't help viewers know we (as in the larger body of unpushed creators) exist within the app, the chances of succeeding are extremely reduced.

[skicoak]

I'm just going to put out there that I don't think thats remotely what he's saying? It looks to me that his actual concern is that he could pay money to drive traffic to his comic, and that tapas would benefit from the ad rev of that traffic, while he neither gets the ad rev or views from it.

I'm not even that concerned about actual ad revenue. I just think it's a catch 22 to be told internally that ad revenue/views are important in how things get curated to be featured but have social media drives/advertising linked only to hits that create/link to registered accounts.

Honestly I've never tested it myself, but I always assumed the view counter counted any views, not just those from users with an account logged in. I'm not 100% willing to take your word for it, mostly because I don't have much information on what you did to test this, and if you were accounting for variables like ad block.

Perfectly fine, there's been a few debates on Tapas about it. Some people have the same problems... others have said theirs register. Our tech guy tried it multiple different ways, including before our strip went live.

[SleepingPoppy]

I'm not even that concerned about actual ad revenue. I just think it's a catch 22 to be told internally that ad revenue/views are important in how things get curated to be featured but have social media drives/advertising linked only to hits that create/link to registered accounts.

I can guess that it's perhaps just more important to them that people visiting the site are converted to users with accounts, but it strikes me as weird not to count those views if they in fact do not. I keep having mixed feelings on if it's worth @ staff to just ask.

[JRHoch]

Today at 3:00 PM PT there will be a human sacrifice.

[Croik]

Don't be silly. You're the only one tying a specific numeric value to views... you continue to mix and match your points. How can views have no value in driving ad revenue and yet somehow also be a vital metric in deciding if a series should get pushed? It can't be both.

Oh okay, I see where our confusion is. Views are NOT a vital metric in deciding if a series should get pushed, as far as I understand it - Subs resulting from those views are.

The requirement to submit to Premium is based in subs, not views. If you go to the app and sort by popularity, it shows you subs and likes, and you only see views once you click in. Trending is based on engagement, so having views that don't result in a sub or a like is pushing your chances of making the list down, not up. So I honestly didn't see why you'd be fighting for those guest views unless it was the ad rev you were after, and like @SleepingPoppy pointed out, we don't actually know for certain if they count or not.

If Tapas was saying "Get me views - jk not those views" then I'd agree something weird was going on. But they're pretty much saying, "Get me subs to prove you're bankable." Which I don't think is too much to ask when they're already giving you free service. Their mission statement makes it plenty clear they're here for profit, so if you want their attention, prove you can turn a profit.

Do views count for more on WebComics App?

[LordVincent]

Views are nearly useless from a financial standpoint both for tapas and for independent creators. Ad revenue generated from ads that show beside other things on sites is very low and is constantly dropping.

What actually brings in revenue is... well there are a lot of things but the core of the matter is, it requires engaged viewers. Therefore it makes sense to focus on subs and likes.