Visibility on Tapas

[BobbyjoeX]

i know the feel, i'm also struggling with this but its more i plan to network and imy mind goes blank and i don't know where to look

[vothnthorvaldson]

I don't mind super much about visibility of Premium vs non-Premium, but I mind a lot about the (non)-visibility issue due to the horrid search and debatable sorting options.
This is really problematic for me as a reader, so I imagine that does not help my comic to be seen either.

Just now, I checked the app and the mobile site (I can't check the full site right now); and could not read a few comic/novels I wanted to read. Why? The "fresh" section of the corresponding categories is limited to the 20-30 last works updated (or maybe corresponding to a small timeframe?), with no way to go back to works updated just a little before. So, if I don't read every day... well, all these stories are not read, liked or commented on by me. I can't remember all titles and search them individually. Subscribing to everything is not possible (too many notifications), and there is not 'read later' list.
In the end, I read considerably less things on Tapas simply because I can't find them. At least before, the issue was only with the app. Now... well, for now the mobile website is as bad.

[TAMAnnoying]

This is pretty much my issue- I don’t care too much about becoming bit time as much as I care about the readers I already have, problem is everyone hates this update to the UI so much I’m honestly afraid of loosing the readers I do have. I like my readers, I’d rather not see them go cause they’re annoyed with the website now, I’ve seen this happen years and years ago with a site no one remembers called Drunk Duck.

[carloswebcomic]

From my own experience, even landing a front page feature is not going to be a divine boost for your series. After years of plodding along with only two daily snack features for my part in the Winter Fest collabs and one daily snack for my third series, my audience was built mostly from natural growth and promotion outside of Tapas. Only in 2019 did I have a creator spotlight, but I did not see a significant increase in numbers from that.

Okay, I could be wrong but I do feel that the front page IS important. Before, you at least got some visibility when you updated. You may be there for a bit, but you were visible.
Maybe it won't set your stats on fire, but you will be exposed and judged on your own merits and not whether you signed a contract or made it to the staff pick.

Let's take Smack Jeeves' new design for example.
I started posting there just before the site's redesign.
My comic is not great, but every time I updated, I managed to grab a couple of subs here and there.
Once the site was redesigned, they removed the recently updated section and front page visibility was gone.
And that was the end of that. No new subs, no new readers. The comic simply disappeared.

Again, I could be wrong, but improving the search and tags doesn't inspire a lot of hope. How many people go beyond what's in the front page?

It's not so much the number of comics that makes it hard to be noticed.
Well, okay, it does play some part, but what's really fucking everything up it's the way we are posting comics.
We no longer have our own sites. We cannot link our friends. Promoting comics has degenerated to the endless "Post your comic with under XX subs!" threads in the forum.
When you go to someone's comic, the only links readers see is what the host wants them to see. Premium and popular comics.
It's self feeding cycle that screws over the smaller comics.
And no, you cannot go back to hosting your own site because corporate style hosts have cornered the market. You could not survive with your own website anymore. You'll never get the traffic now when Tapas and Webtoon are so convenient for readers.

Sure, there are 70,000 comics and you cannot put them all in the front page, but at least the recently updated section provided some measure of exposure rewarding those who actually update their comics.

Let me make one thing clear. I'm not saying this because I think I've been cheated of greatness or anything.
I'm well aware that my comic is mediocre at best and that the only reason I got a substantial number of readers is because I got spotlighted years ago.
But I see so many comics which are pretty good with absolutely fuck all audience, buried out of view. And it will remain that way because they get no visibility.
This hurts webcomics in general. It forces creators to either create the content that makes the front page or face obscurity.

This is just the way I see it though and it's possibly influenced by my rather grim view of reality.

[joannekwan]

But I see so many comics which are pretty good with absolutely fuck all audience, buried out of view. And that will remain that way because they get no visibility.

I think it's important to note that this parallels that why is this so underrated thread and I really liked Jenny-Toons' response there when it pertains to online comics: That people have forgotten how to spread the word on things and some are under the impression that other people will spread it.

For example False Knees, the comics with the birds
They only have 1,900 subs on Tapas, but their comics are everywhere else on the internet to the point that they become memes.

And then there are creators like Dzuban, who as far as I know only has their comic on Tapas

The Silence of Words | Tapas

It's relatively new having just started in 2018. It only has 1,400 subs which is not a lot compared to their 8700 followers on instagram, but they have 246 Patrons.

Series like these may not get great visibility here, but somehow they find a path to it somewhere else.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

When other users and readers complain about the fact that our comics are hidden behind a paywall I would like to refer to the high workload premium creators put onto themselves. A full chapter on a weekly or biweekly upload schedule, and that for months or years. If you're not a highly successful creator, the pay you will receive from people buying your comic is also something I would consider peanuts, and I can make what my comic pays me here in a month just in a few hours worth of freelance work. Yet I'm still here (you may call me an idiot).

I may be in the minority here, but couldn't that be part of the reason people complain...?

I mean, it doesn't have to be an either/or scenario; not everyone who's just not into Premium comics shares the mindset of the bratty jealous haters. For instance, here: I could see Premium status receiving more public support if it actually improved the lives of the artists by a measurable degree.
But like you said; it's just a couple years of elevated(?) status that both stresses people out and barely pays. A lot of people simply couldn't fit this "honor" into their schedule, even if they were presented with it today (me included). That doesn't really help people's cynical attitude about the whole racket.

It is very disheartening to see other creators regularly post "I will never pay for premium because I like none of them."

Also, ^this: I can see how it's hard to hear, but I really think it's less of a personal insult and more of a simple cost-benefit analysis.

People will not pay for something they don't want, no matter how hard anyone worked on it. And if "Premium comics" as a whole is something most fellow creators don't see as worth their money, it's probably not the fault of the individual comic creators in that group.
It's mostly the fault of the people who put that group together in the first place, who decided it was fine if 75% of them were different mutations of the same set of tropes. You may well be one of the 25% that they might think was worth the money, but that 75% that they don't like is still gonna put them off-- it's only natural.

It's like when people complain about DeviantArt: around the internet, the phrase "Deviantart artist" is regularly used as an insult. But as a member of dA, I don't really see it as an insult to me personally, nor do I feel particularly 'unwelcome' when people I know use it. I just take it to mean that DeviantArt as a whole has its own reputation that's outside of my control. It's just a platform, not an extension of my identity.

If they're interested to know about dA artists that are actually decent human beings, I'll be glad to recommend some from my watchlist. But if they just don't want to go anywhere near all the craziness and fetish art going around in some circles, it's not my place to force them to.

[carloswebcomic]

It's relatively new having just started in 2018. It only has 1,400 subs which is not a lot compared to their 8700 followers on instagram, but they have 246 Patrons.

Series like these may not get great visibility here, but somehow they find a path to it somewhere else.

Yeah, but that's like winning the Lottery, isn't it?
It also helps that the artist is insanely good.

But not everyone can be a savant. Not everyone has interpersonal skills to build an audience on social media. Some people have mental illnesses, like me, which makes it hard to market themselves. That doesn't mean that they should get no exposure and deserve to be hidden away.

I do feel that a bit of help from Tapas would go a long way to not only bring visibility to smaller creators, but it would also show general audiences that there's far more diversity in comics than just what's shown on the front page.
It could even increase the readership base as a whole.

[KRWright]

I could see Premium status receiving more public support if it actually improved the lives of the artists by a measurable degree.

I think it's just that it's seen as distasteful to discuss money - so people can't always share how their lives are immeasurably changed. I was able to switch careers and go into a field I care much more strongly about while relying on monetization of my creative work to pay my bills. Tapas is a good chunk of rent money for me. But saying stuff like that then also makes it seem like I'm bragging so... I usually don't talk about it except on my Discord/with my patrons.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Tapas is a good chunk of rent money for me. But saying stuff like that then also makes it seem like I'm bragging so... I usually don't talk about it except on my Discord/with my patrons.

I wouldn't see it as bragging! '_' Hell, for some people "a good chunk of rent money" would be totally worth it; I think most of the artists here with a decent level of maturity would love to know about little details like that.

To be honest, I think this "us vs. them" mentality might be more easily remedied if more premium artists would stick their necks out and be open about their experiences, rather than censoring themselves out of fear of social rejection (or worse, just up and leaving).

It kinda reminds me of the practice of 'bussing' during the Civil Rights Movement: rather than waiting for each side to explicitly agree to welcome the other group with open arms, sometimes it's better to just mash the groups together and normalize it.

[KRWright]

To be honest, I think this "us vs. them" mentality might be more easily remedied if more premium artists would stick their necks out and be open about their experiences, rather than censoring themselves out of fear of social rejection (or worse, just up and leaving).

Yeah... but that's not actually that fair. If the tone shifts, you'll see people being more open I think, but it's not up to those creators to somehow fight their way to having fair treatment. We also sign contracts, and we are under no obligation to share our personal financial situations to make others feel better.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I'm one of the persons who never has put any money into Premium, and I can assure you @ratique that it has nothing to do with the works being Premium nor with not wanting to support Premium artists with ink or actual money. It has to do with having zero (often) or little (sometimes) interest in the stories proposed, and I really tried, and still do (eg. I follow advice from people whose comics I like, also randomly try a few ones if the cover has appeal, etc). So far, no luck. I may find them well done, esthetically pleasing, but that's not enough for me to support them on my tight budget.

I'm not familiar with your work, so I'm not one of the creators you are speaking of; but I did in the past get disappointed, and stop following/supporting people when they started to do their art professionally, and that, quite a few times, and for all kinds of arts (comic/illustration of course, but also music, ballet etc).

The main reason is generally the fact that artists have to drop most or all experimental/avant-garde elements when they become professionals. In competitive areas, there is generally no place for such elements, but unfortunately, that's the main attraction for me. Same great artist with same style, same type of story may become very bland to me if all the experimental I liked from them is gone.
Money is hard to earn, so I won't feel like paying for content that I 'sort of' like or 'used to' like.
I will keep my money for things that I truly love, and they happen to not really exist in Premium as far as I know. I will happily support a Premium work if I find one I truly love.

I'm sure there are a lot of other reasons to not support Premium comics, and probably some of these reasons are less palatable, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to simply have no taste for them, because of the constraints put on them by having to please a larger readership.

[joannekwan]

I'll admit I have experienced similar sentiments back a few years ago when a couple of series I was reading on Tap got poached to be featured on WT. I had no interest in using that platform so I just … stopped reading. It may sound terrible but hey, they found their audience. I don't blame the creators nor speak ill of them though.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

We also sign contracts, and we are under no obligation to share our personal financial situations to make others feel better.

I didn't mean it that way...it's not that the community needs to be able to milk them for info. I think it just needs them to be present. To regularly join in discussions and provide their perspective. It's hard to think of someone as a "them" when they're sitting right next to you, having normal conversations about everyday stuff just like anyone else.
My point is that this trend of self-segregation from artists who go Premium or otherwise find success isn't helping anyone in the long run, and in some ways it might even be hurting the community.

No one's obligated to sacrifice their peace of mind to try to make things better: if you really don't feel comfortable here you should definitely leave. But for those that are kind of on the fence, or don't really care much either way, it'd be great if they'd stick around and make their voices heard. If I ever became a Premium artist, leaving the forum would be the last thing on my mind; I don't care if anyone thinks I "belong" here or not.

[TAMAnnoying]

The main reason is generally the fact that artists have to drop most or all experimental/avant-garde elements when they become professionals. In competitive areas, there is generally no place for such elements, but unfortunately, that's the main attraction for me. Same great artist with same style, same type of story may become very bland to me if all the experimental I liked from them is gone.

See this is one of the reasons I will never pay to read premium, I have read so many free pages and have seen so many unfinished or sloppy panels- and I don’t blame the artist for this- I blame the system, a system that forces them to make 30 panels a week so they cut corners everywhere. They HAVE to do it just to make deadlines- but- It’s just not my thing, I like reading comics where people take there time and make every piece of the story count including the panels, so it’s just not worth my money when theirs free art that feels more finished and “professional” then the premium stuff.

That’s just how some people feel about it, and as creators ourselves were more likely to see this and have picker tasted then non creators. Such is life.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Yes, I would not speak ill of them either. And would go back to supporting them if they decide to do a side project that I like more (it happens all the time with music. Artist get more popular, their music doesn't interest me anymore; then they miss it too, and do some kind of wacky, super experimental side project, and I'm back! It must exist in comics too)

[joannekwan]

To regularly join in discussions and provide their perspective. It's hard to think of someone as a "them" when they're sitting right next to you, having normal conversations about everyday stuff just like anyone else.

This is one of the reasons why I remain active on the forums, even though I sort of have high numbers I guess (they could def be higher tho plz god my wallet needs it).

[TAMAnnoying]

Doki I would be so upset if you left us here on the forums you have no idea X3

[KRWright]

My point is that this trend of self-segregation from artists who go Premium or otherwise find success isn't helping anyone in the long run, and in some ways it might even be hurting the community.

I think what we disagree on is whether or not this is 'self-segregation'. People tend not to go to places where they're not welcomed - nor do they tend to want to help communities that aren't supportive of them and their goals. At the end of the day, the tone shifting to one that celebrates success instead of focusing more on the negatives would draw these people back or into the space. We all know that the forums can be a tad negative at times, especially when it comes to popular or premium series. So I think it's more of a case of 'Build it and they will come' rather than expecting people to put up with it until things get better.

I'm relatively active on the forums - run my own craft thread around storytelling etc., and do lots of work with novelists on Discord around Tapas, so I'm not about to go anywhere any time soon. But there are times where I've definitely had to take a break just to avoid a negativity spiral.

[GabiWolf]

This is the problem and I am so sorry to hear people tell you that you are not part of the community! Those of us who are small but have dreams of going big need to have creators who have “made it” on the forums.
Why get mad at someone who has the experience to guide you to your goals? Why outcast those who have walked in your footsteps.?
I have stopped interacting a lot in the forums because of the negativity. Instead of complaining, why not brain storm about what you can do to improve, and getting invaluable advice from those who have come before you?

[amortelito]

, but I mind a lot about the (non)-visibility issue due to the horrid search and debatable sorting options.

YESSSSS absolutely!!! I have said this before, repeatedly, but I will point out again: even when you are using the search box to look for a specific comic by name, you get suggested lots of more popular comics first even if just one-word matches your query. Every single category is organized by popularity. so it is a very discouraging cycle to want to grow an audience when comics that have better numbers are more likely to get a more prominent spot anyway.

I really don't want to start pushing salty conspiracy theories, but I remember a user who was monitoring the "fresh" section and his comic was flat out replaced from the list and after 10 minutes it was gone. No, not because others who updated eventually pushed his comic out of the list: he noticed the spot of some comics got literally replaced by others. I hope it was just a temporary glitch or an error in the algorithm. But overall is hard to get visibility anywhere in the multiple sections. "unknown" or small comics are not very likley to ever be on the front page or even the subpages.

Yes, we all must work on our won to promote ou work to get readers, but the non-visibility is definitely a problem.