We don't have enough promotion threads

Leverance 2021-03-27 23:47:13 UTC #21

@Rhonder It is, I don't see it changing anytime soon. For that, some people need to understand that writing can be just as challenging as a comic but as another medium. Our audience expects usually other things, and I've written for years trying to crack the code that both satisfies me as a creator and as a consumer. For me, I don't get that a lot. There is rarely I see a relevant writing thread to comment on as I mostly lurk (most threads, as I've observed on my time here are mostly aimed at comic creators and I feel my presence there is either unwanted or not needed). I've tried promoting on Twitter, with little if no response, Instagram slightly better. I've breached out to other sites as well --- yet it has yielded small results in readership.

For some time now, I've felt like the odds are against me. The writing site I'm not so often on anymore, I felt like I was treated as someone who produces books, not listened to, and toxic people stealing concepts. I've gotten smaller and smaller patience for things not worth my time. So if I feel I'm treated unjustly as a creator, I will leave. These experiences aren't that linked to Tapas, no worries!

Leverance 2021-03-27 23:54:20 UTC #22

Regarding this, some years ago Tapas started to promote (or try to) Novels as well. It is more of a Novel/Comic site now but it needs lots of work to equalize the two properly. I've seen those, although they're far and few in between. For me, it still doesn't feel too including. I hope in the future there come writing/comic workshops where both sites of the creators can learn from each other and in turn become much better and understand one another better. Right now, I feel many don't get how tough the writing side of things really is. Though comic creators share their fair amounts of challenges as well, a mutual understanding can come a long way.

Also congrats on your achievements! It's well deserved.

littlelilylee5683 2021-03-28 00:28:06 UTC #23

It does still seem unbalanced but I just assumed this was natural. I think reader expectations are important too. Are they coming for comics or novels or both? Seems like external Tapas promotion of novels needs to be more robust, not just the internal?

I purposely follow a ton of comic artists on social media and am in a discord with both. I like the interaction of both and the idea of sharing between. We definitely each have our strengths and challenges and can share. And I don't necessarily believe one is easier than the other, we just face different difficulties. Ones we often can't understand, since I can't draw for crap and am in awe of anyone who can, and an artist can rely on on actual images to paint a picture while we have to build a world with words. I will say it does seem art is more physically draining and does require more resources. A lot goes into drawing just a single panel, and I think sometimes people don't understand that. Whereas I can sit down, open Word, and poor out all of my thoughts at once. BUT, then I spend a million hours editing and fretting over every word, because that's all I have. It's just different skill sets and processes.

And thank you.

rajillustration 2021-03-28 00:30:45 UTC #24

I have one comic I turned into a novel, and most of the people reading the novel are different readers. Only a handful switched over. And, only a handful of people who stay for the novel switch over to the comic. (and in my case, the novel has way better engagement in a few months than the comic version which was silent as a ghost for 2 years--2 years and that comic only had 20 subs until I started actively promoting it and I'm a professional illustrator!) so it's not the same demographic you're competing for.

As for saying writing isn't hard--of course it's hard. I've spent years writing some stories and they still aren't finished, I know how hard it is. I spend hours and hours every week getting this novel uploaded just right because it needs to be updated 5x a week (which is a stiff update schedule!) And like I finished it before I started uploading it...but of course I felt like making a new ending so I'm just...it's a lot of work.

Yet if I were to illustrate those, it's the step after writing. Like comic creators write everything out before they start drawing it, so most comic creators are also writers, we don't consider ourselves that different from you. I feel like I learn from the novel writing community here all the time and I'm super thankful for their threads (especially since I consider myself in both worlds atm) They are more about world-building, prose, and the creative writing process than the comic ones are. We need both. It's the writing community that has encouraged me to take more risks in my storytelling, not the comic community.

So it's like...you don't compare animation to comics and say that comics are hard to make and then get bitter at animators because their work gets more attention. Animation is the step of extra labor after comics (storyboarding, that is)--and comics is the step of extra labor after writing. But, that doesn't mean that everything I write will be a comic, a lot of it will stay in novel format because yo, novels work way better for certain stories. And that doesn't mean we don't respect authors here. Especially since comic creators are ...also authors.

As for what's on the front page--I think Tapas can give novels waaay more representation, and that's been a problem for a while.

thedude3445 2021-03-28 00:36:42 UTC #25

I do think the changes to the front page are part of the reason behind a lot of the promo threads; they're mostly started by new users who don't know how to promote their work effectively, and there's really no place on the site to do that except for the front page, which really helps, and the forum, which really doesn't (I think most users need to be made very aware that you can see how many clicks your links have gotten, and these promotion threads have very few numbers next to the links lol).

The only avenues for promotion right now for community works are staff picks, Most Popular of the Week, "Community Comics" (same as staff picks? IDK) and "New From the Community" (which I guess is curated but I'm not sure how). Novels only get two places--staff pick and most popular--to be featured, while comics only get four. These are extremely competitive spots! So it's quite difficult to promote other than going off-site, which is always a crapshoot for sure (Twitter in particular has the lowest conversion rate ever; nobody clicks on your links on that dang site).

I was extremely lucky to have my romance novel featured on the Staff Pick novels section for a week last summer, and it brought in hundreds of new subscribers with countless people reading and enjoying the story. I'll be grateful about that forever (and I'm really hoping my next book gets featured someday soon ). But if it weren't for that feature, my book probably would still be below 250 subscribers and probably only about 8-9 views for the later chapters (compared to about 40 now). One week on the front page and all that completely changed!

So, anything that can be done to help give readers the option to find the stories they want, or to discover things they may have never seen before, is great in my book. Even something like just a selection of what most recently updated, novels and comics alike, way at the bottom of the front page, would do a lot in my opinion. Anything to combat the forum promo threads lol

Leverance 2021-03-28 00:37:36 UTC #26

@littlelilylee5683 From what I gather, most readers on here still come for the comics, as it's still mostly known as that outside of the site.

On my end, and I've written in a lot of genres over the years, writing appears equally as challenging as a comic. Every genre has its distinct tropes, readers, and so much more. Thing is, is easier to consume a comic than a book. It can make it unappealing for comic readers to suddenly be thrust into the world of books, especially if they haven't touched an e-book before. The skills needed for each craft are different indeed, however, a certain misconception is still here, unfortunately. Sometimes for me, in 18+ chapters are far more time-consuming than one would think. And feedback is different for both comics and books.

You're welcome ^.^

joannekwan 2021-03-28 00:46:30 UTC #27

From this article,

Eighty percent of the content on Tapas is comics, 20% is prose novels.

So yeah, Tapas still continues to be mainly a comic site, but novels are growing for sure. Novels began about 5 years ago, and Tapas as a comic site started 8/9 years ago.

kitkatxk 2021-03-28 00:48:31 UTC #28

I hope @staff sees this and takes you up on your offer. This site is drowning, and if they don't fix it soon, people are going to start bailing ship to look for someplace that isn't trying to drown them and sink them in a bottomless sea.

thedude3445 2021-03-28 00:54:39 UTC #29

Woah I don't think that's true at all! Maybe back on the no-longer-existing Wattpad forums, which were very snippy and mean to each other in the various cliques, but the web fiction community as a whole is wonderful. It's very fragmented, with no one site having a real foothold other than Wattpad, but across the various sites, there's countless great authors who love supporting each other, even if they are the "competition."

And while the novel covers are bigger, the "Novels We Love" section, and the Most Popular section, are the only ones novels are ever featured in for the front page, besides the occasional collection appearance. Most of the novels picked each week are premium, too. And that's not a knock against Tapas, since novels are not popular on Tapas, but it does sadden me for my own lack of art skills lol

Leverance 2021-03-28 00:55:11 UTC #30

@rajillustration I would consider the novel to comic a more sort of manuscript format. At least from what I've observed on these threads. It isn't exactly the same as a book written for the sake of becoming a full-fledged story. A manuscript is often used for visual mediums to know how a scene is supposed the go, the story beats, where the characters and things are and so on (I've studied this in a writing school). So, no, I wouldn't consider those two near the exact same line. It requires different efforts.

The issue I see lots of comic creators and illustrators on here face is that they have not yet gotten the experience many of those who have written for decades have. One of the reasons I rarely read anything on here. If I were brutally honest with my advice to novice writers, I could break their will to continue the craft. It isn't a laughing matter. The reality is that if someone wanted to become a Traditionally Published author, the response could be far rasher. Which I believe is the same for someone attempting to publish a comic through a publishing house but I know little of it. However, I still see a comic creator different from a writer, yes, both create stories, but you've the help of images where we either have to choose to fully describe a scene or tell it. Everything a writer has is their words on a black and white page, the rest the reader imagines in their own heads where we've limited control over what they see (it comes down to their culture, personal experiences, and so on). It's a whole another ball game.

Take note in the prior responses I did specify some comic creators, not everyone on the site. I'm aware an animation takes more labor and often requires more people with specific abilities. It doesn't take away from their effort or respect. However, it remains is a disproportion of writers and comic creators on here. It was originally a comic site after all -- I still feel us writers are only an afterthought.

It's been taken up quite a few times, unfortunately, little improvement on that end. Though it can change in some years when Tapas feels more secure that novels on here can sell constantly on the same grounds as comics. Which takes time marked-wise.

Leverance 2021-03-28 01:04:04 UTC #31

Wattpad is perhaps the more known site like that but I've heard both from Inkitt and Scribble Hub writers that some are immature and downright rude. I've long ago stopped seeing the writing community through rose-colored lenses. Both of our experiences are just as valid however, it shows the huge cesspool that the writing community is. There exist some small good communities although, I would not count on it as a norm. It's constantly discussions that some authors, once they've become past the "guard" and become published they're in the inside circle. And that competition is something I see every year. Even becoming Paid or Stars on Wattpad is a similar competition. There is infighting, drama that ends friendships, in some cases, friends dox each other online. The hate is clear. No matter what side you're on.

franzvanderlinde 2021-03-28 01:29:15 UTC #32

Sorry for not reading all posts (long thread already). From my experience I already know these promotion threads give you a few extra views (and sometimes subs) and no more than that. However, as others have pointed, these few are better than the big ZERO you get from just publishing. I have been posting clockworkely on Mondays for a year, followed every "tips" from Tapas, yet I get very little audience at all (like 10 new subs in a year?), probably because all attention is going to premium content. Promoting my comics in any other channel has been as painful, sometimes I just don't do it for being tired and want to spend energy on my art instead.

Eyre 2021-03-28 02:44:27 UTC #33

This evening, me and some friends have been discussing a very short article, which I found after it was retweeted by Ton Roosendaal of the Blender Foundation. Having read everyone's replies, it seems to me to be quite relevant here as well.

I'll refer to the author of this article as "Dave" from here on out.

Web fiction is a web 1.0 idea at heart, but was always indicative that the web could be something more.

It seems we are all concerned that Tapas is going from what Dave calls "Tools that let individuals publish, but do not seek to amplify them or force them viral, giv[ing] us that natural, human scale" and trying, by itself, as a producer and not a platform to become something that generates that "virality", which Dave (I think quite rightly) calls a "bug, not a feature" of the platform-based web ecosystem. ...hence all the ads, and the increased prevalence of premium series.

But, Tapas is a platform, and it uses that platform exactly to the letter of what Dave says in his article: "luring you with that viral juice boost". Wannabe creators see Tapas' brand and read it as a promise of popularity. Hence the promo threads.

It's no secret that every platform out there, if you want success on it basically wants you as a full-time, unpaid worker. You are after all what gives the platform value, not the platform itself. The platform then is a middleman, that takes some credit for the success of your work, if you get any. All that work you did for free at the beginning can be passed off as "well it was just a hobby then" or "but you have to work hard to get anywhere".
So, they're like an old-school record label, except not nearly as helpful or supportive (which considering the stereotype of record labels surely is saying something).

I see the recent changes on Tapas as indicative of it becoming more like Dave's view of what a platform is, while simultaneously also becoming more like what the larger social media companies want their "workers" to be.

I like Tapas, and having gone from very much a Web 1.0 idea to a Web 2.0 one, and as a highly socially responsible brand, I feel like it's ideally placed to attempt before anyone else to try to carve out what comes next. Personally, I feel as if its current direction lacks imagination and awareness of what its creator community wants. I also think Tapastry as an initiative so far lacks substance - a sticking plaster on a sinkhole - almost a sheepish expression of guilt, acknowledging what is being lost in the present changes. Though, I am grateful for the one or two likes and retweets using the hashtag has got me.

I for one make my comic because it stops me from getting coding dreams. I'm perfectly satisfied with my 18 subs after one year of posting thrice-weekly. [EDIT: Just checked again and it's 17. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.]

I'd be intrigued to know what folks make of this. I'm researching online storytelling platforms for my dissertation atm and this is all extremely interesting for me, so thank you for this thread!

Kaydreamer 2021-03-28 05:22:20 UTC #34

There's a lot which has already been said here, and I don't want to re-hash too much of it, but I'm in agreement that the explosion of promo threads is symptomatic of issues with organic growth and visibility on Tapas. A lot of readers, particularly app-only readers, aren't aware that there's a community of creators making free, indie comics here. That needs to change.

The tapas front page is overwhelmed by trendy premium content. It's also kinda... confusing. I'm not surprised that the average reader rarely goes digging deep enough into it to find us tiny creators.

While WEBTOON is... extremely far from perfect, they have been engaging in bringing their CANVAS section to the attention of their readers quite a bit more often, lately. Tapas could benefit from a similar marketing push regarding our free-to-read community comics. Having a prominent "Free To Read" button toward the top of the front page would work wonders for this! (And immediately beat WEBTOON, since, let's be real, who's going to know what 'CANVAS' is supposed to mean unless they've been told?)

@Darthmongoose's explanation of how the 'trending' section should work algorithmically is good, and it could be tweaked to have spaces set aside for different sub counts, ensuring that small comics and novels punching above their weight are seen as often as the bigger ones. At the moment, it's the same comics which are always there.

I'm lucky in that I have been promoted by Tapas once, which more than doubled my sub count at the time. I'm super grateful for that, but also aware that it's not a privilege which can be extended to every creator. Better systems for organic growth are needed. Better on-site marketing for indie comics would help attract more creators to Tapas, and encourage them to pour as much attention and marketing into Tapas as they do into WEBTOON.

kitkatxk 2021-03-28 05:51:23 UTC #35

I sooo, disagree with this. (nothing against you doll, or any actual artists. It's more against this unfair system.) Artists and Writers work equally as hard and there is no step above one or the other as in one comes after, and that artists have to be writers to, thats just... no they don't, its not even the same lake let alone the same boat.

I believe that all of these are necessary media, but that is as someone who does both and knows the work that goes into both. They are all lots of work. Tons.

However, I think there is much less respect and patience on this site for novelists compared to comic artists. Everything is naturally geared towards comics so frankly, sorry you guys do have it easier. Not in the workload of stuff you have to do( well mainly) but just in your treatment on the site, and the auto recognition that comes with it. The steps you guys have to take too. There is less of them to getting a perfectly procured piece of work out there. We start off so low here that. Well...

When a novelist comes into a thread they have to first even ask if they are welcome. Or say nothing at all. They can't even feel comfortable to post without asking first if it's okay to do so. Where as artists come on and assume it is relevant, Because they know it is. They just are relevant to this site, because it was made for them. I hate to say it too, but there is a blatant disregard to content length. The average artist has to include 40-100 words in a comic and a comic can even be a single page with only one panel and have like 20 words. (and some artists don't storyboard at all for any of this, when god they really should) Where as the average chapter length for a novel is 1500 words or more. That's 1500 perfectly edited words or all we get is bad comments and if we get no other comments then our novel looks like its dung and people won't even bother reading any of it. Where as most people go ah, it's a comic I will give it 20 episodes to see if the story gets better. Most of the time unless a comic gets really hard to read there is a little more leniency for mistakes and issues. Which has nothing to do with the content creators but rather the attention span of the internet and just how honestly different it is to write 1500 words a day. No shade, honestly.

I just am saying most of us if we want to stay relevant are expected to upload at the same scheduled pace as an artist so we also need backlogs just like you guys. And we also need artwork now. Because you can't just have a novel by itself anymore. It just isn't done. To stay relevant, there should be character art, cover art, character pages, fun interactive pages, interviews with characters and authors. Chibi panels that tell people he we are cute, read and like us. (you guys have this stuff too, but its all just a part of a regular episode. You don't have to write 1500 words on top of all of it.)

We have less engagement on our work. It's a proven fact that novels have less engagement and interactions than comics and we are even encouraged to try and mimic comics to have better engagement. We are constantly trying to figure out how to engage our readers in a way that is visual and interactive like a comic even though that isn't the medium we are trying to provide. Yet twitter and insta and all these sites all do better when images are attached, twitter even says when you go to post, they have a box that says over 80% of peoples posts do better with an image do you want to ad one. So not only are we asked to pump out words and descriptions like mules, people also expect us to just have a ton of images and artwork on hand. So they can't just sit down and spend a few days making that content. or if they do have the skill they don't have the time since it can take 5-12hrs a day to just keep up with what they are expected to pump out.

But lots of writers can't draw anything more than stick figures so then they have to pour in hundreds of dollars for art content, editors, draft producers, beta readers. I want to say I have never in all my time on here (which I mean I joined 2018) Have I seen a artist saying. "Hey can I get a bunch of beta readers to preview my story outline, summary, premise and deep dive into my writing theory to get some feedback before I move ahead on my comic plot line, I really can't post anything until I get some beta readers on my storyline."

But some of us can't even work without that feedback which we can't even get cause we are not comics.

Yet we will never get it since most of the time the writing threads on here are non existent or asking very small questions because we are not even sure if we are welcome on the site so we don't want to heavy dump on people, when we are not even sure we are welcome.

Again nothing to do with you. but rather the site makes it very hard to even know if they are extending out a hand to writers or a shoe and giving us the boot. I have been here for a long time and don't make to many posts or interact much cause I am not sure how. But just now after years has my novel finally started picking up. But it took years, shameless google promotions, paying for promotions on facebook, ads on other sites that linked back to my story. It didn't come from tapas at all.

The more they have moved away from novels and their own community of creators. The more they intentionally crush us on here to uplift the new premium network they got going on. Which is how we have ended up with this discordance in the first place. It's becoming all so very sad. Too much content, not enough places with companies that care about the little guys anymore.

carloswebcomic 2021-03-28 06:25:57 UTC #36

Can I also add that Tapas decided to hide the subscribe button in the last redesign?

Let that sink in for a moment... TAPAS DECIDED TO HIDE THE SUBSCRIBE BUTTON.

I saw a huge drop off in subs the moment this was implemented.
So basically, if people does find a free to read comic they like, they might lose track of it if they don't find the secret hidden subscribe button.
It's like looking for illusionary walls in Dark Souls.

jensrichard77 2021-03-28 07:28:24 UTC #37

I removed my original text. I’m not going into this debate. It is not healthy for me.

I will focus on creating timeless stories that will engage my follower to generate more followers.

magnavarra 2021-03-28 10:23:18 UTC #38

Ok, so this forum has 27694 users. Which is a relatively small number.
Some of them are not active old accounts probably.
Most of them are probably creators who want exposure I think since it's a free platform to promote.
Some of them would stay for a few days-weeks because this kind of promotion is very limited by the number of users, considering preferred genre and age.

I personally use this forum a few times a month to see if I can highlight my presence to potential new readers that have joined recently.

I don't like these insults on tapas and similar platforms for not promoting your work, because I mean it's not done for free. They are mere humans and have their job, Maintaining the site, design, content, technical issues, social media etc - why should they promote some newbie creators with weak art style or story plot? The kind of content that won't get any dedicated readers even if it gets views from promotion?

Tapas and canvas original creators are mostly very talented and experienced authors or even a team of authors and editors, that unite to create professional content that readers would enjoy. This is definitely not their first work and I believe that their first work was also not so good and popular when they have only started. Because everyone starts somewhere and it's not the top)

As a newbie creator myself, I am not delusional about my art and story. Of course, I want more readers and comments and Likes, But I treasure every reader that I have now and remember the number of comments under each episode. And I am very grateful for rtheir support. But if I were a regular reader myself I won't read my own work. Because I prefer to read comics of the better quality overall.

I hope that talented and determined creators would overcome their first not-so-popular work and continue to develop their skills and grow their audience one by one and not complain about low numbers and drop it all instead of self-improvement.

littlelilylee5683 2021-03-28 10:27:52 UTC #39

I have written multiple responses to this thread and deleted them all. It seems that I don't really belong here.

I only recently started writing again after many, many years. I wasn't going to be a published author and wasn't going to make a living off my stories. I looked around and because of that Tapas seemed the best fit - they have a good audience for me, in a smaller pool than places like Wattpad or Amazon. The platform is set up for web comics, but I like that. I knew novels weren't the focus coming in, so didn't have any expectations there. I also assumed (and from interacting and reading over the months saw) that this was a place for young writers, new writers, or casual writers to have fun, share stories, get feedback, learn, test the waters, whatever. But it isn't somewhere you'll make bank or get legit published. I had little confidence in my writing and needed a place to take a chance and see what happened. The fact that people are reading and enjoying at all gives me the motivation to keep writing, which is all I really need.

Are comics the focus here? Yes. Does it seem less welcoming to novelists on the forums? Yes, though I've never felt UNwelcome. Do comic artists dominate and often not think of the novel part of the site? Yes. It makes sense to me that this would be the case, since this was their home to begin with. And I think that nowadays art is prettier and more appealing than words, it is easier to scroll through a comic and get invested than it is a novel, and it is easier content to take in when you don't have a lot of time. That doesn't make creating a comic easier or writing a novel more difficult. In this environment, they are the popular big brother and we are the nerdy younger sibling often stuck in their shadow, and that is the nature of the beast. Are there things Tapas could do to help ALL free creators? Definitely. But art in any form requires immense talent and the luck that someone will see it, a large amount of self-promotion to try and get yourself out there, or enough money to invest in an editor, agent, marketing, and everything else that comes along with getting published. I have none of those. So I'm going to continue to write to the best of my ability, hopefully improve along the way, read other novels AND comics, support people in the forums when I can, and enjoy myself. I started writing because I love it. I don't need it to become a toxic source of stress or bitterness.

DualDragons 2021-03-28 11:14:10 UTC #40

Not to really try and heat up the discussion, but both sides of the coin make sense. On one hand, you have new users who are attention starved and are stuck in a vicious cycle of getting more subs -> people checking your work -> getting more subs etc but since they have so little subs nobody bothers to give them a chance, which is a mob mentality.

But on the other hand, Tapas is also a company. They need to make money somewhere to keep existing, and the premium comics (and novels) just are a better source of income than indie comics. How can Tapas promote comics and novels if there is no Tapas?

It's not nice to hear, but it's the truth. And just like you and I, those premium creators had to start somewhere. They might have gone through the very same process and setbacks we are going through right now. But they have kept pushing on 'till they reached the point they are at now.

And that's what I'm going to do as well. It may not be too much, but I did go from barely scraping towards 10 subs to reaching beyond 100 subs in the span of a year. And that's for a first comic with a lot of flaws in it. Imagine how well I'd do with the second one?

((Sorry, I went a bit off topic , but what I'm saying is that Tapas can't do everything to help you and a big part of growing is putting in effort yourself.
Will I regret posting this as people come after me for sharing my opinion? Yes, so I'll probably mute the thread later.