Webtoons drawn traditionally

[aprilferrero]

Layers are crazy. I think I use about 15 max and that’s really pushing it. I met someone at a convention and they showed me a piece that looked relatively simple. They had 85 layers. I was like “How the F*** do you have that many layers?!” It’s so crazy to me. The navigation must be a nightmare.

[artist1]

@DarkSena I think you misunderstood my point. I said good as in a solid product, not as a way to separate brands. I never said they make you a better artist, but if you don't have pressure sensitivity, then most modern techniques are impossible. And if you don't have tilt control, you can't do traditional side loading of a brush easily. It being able to have the right tool for the job needed. And I NEVER said you would be a better artist if you by a modern tablet. But it makes a good artist's life easier and faster, which is what comics is all about. You are producing a product to be entertaining, not fine art. If you want to have a discussion about fine art, I completely agree with you. If I see a digital "oil" painting, it doesn't have the same awe to a traditional oil painting and the skill involved with doing it. You just can't "control Z" your way to the perfect look on a canvas. But on a forum about comics, digital ones at that, that argument holds no water. The final point is good story can carry subpar art and vice versa. I present one punch man:

[artist1]

Layers are fantastic to try out stuff on and not have it permanent to the picture as a whole. Create a layer, try a background, doesn't look right, delete and start over. I have lots of layers and folders on my comic simply I use the panel tool that creates a folder and layer over the rough layer. This means every panel has their own folder/layer so it separates that panel from everything else. There is no way to draw or color outside that panel as it just won't appear. Finally all the shadows, colors, and the like are in a separate folder at the bottom of the layer stack, under everything else. This allows you to set the fill margins to fill over the line art but since it's under the ink layer you won't see it. This also allows you not to get the white dots you get from fill stopping short of filling the area as anti-alias makes the fill tool think that grey pix is a different color. It just fills past the line. Layers are fantastic to speed up work flow.

[DarkSena]

@UrMom @aprilferrero Right I also think it must be really confusing eventhough they might have those layers very well sorted out... I watched a few friends streaming when you were able to see their screen and even they had really big issues FINDING the right layer they've been so desperately searching for Also the problem does go on that I keep drawing in the wrong layer and that gets really troublesome and I'd rather merge everything in one and done, haha.

Wowm you have got so many drawings, then you're doing much better than me and I have been drawing for over a decade and half and I don't have so many Maybe because of the simple fact that at the beginning I was really slow and with that sheer amount of details I tried to put and each and every single drawing I have spent half a century on one single piece therefore my earlier works come in a very small amount

[UrMom]

@BoomerZ I know how they work since I drew digitally for a while, and I see the appeal of having absolutely no consequences to experimenting and messing something up by having a shit-ton of layers and folders to organize every tiny thing in. It's just not for me, my brain doesn't function well with hyper organization, keeping track of a million extra things during the process of getting a single illustration done is too much. Plus I like the stakes of having a limited supply, and single piece of paper to work on, it forces me to be more invested in doing well and improving quickly. If there are no consequences I won't be invested.

Regardless, just because it ain't my thing doesn't mean it isn't useful, it's cool you found what works for you!

@aprilferrero Oh my gad, that's so many! All the scrolling, the folders, the labels! -Brain explodes-

@DarkSena Aah yeah, I used to draw almost constantly as a kid, pumped out drawings like an art factory and my mom saved all of them. She even has a drawing I did when I was 3 years old, which was apparently my first drawing. Started slowing down in my 20's when the stress of adulthood, and having bills to pay, started taking over. Couldn't bring myself to throw anything away so I have a massive archive.

There's nothing wrong with being slower and more meticulous, as long as you enjoyed the process! At least you still have stuff you look back on, which seeing how you drew vs. how you draw now is a fun aspect of art.

[DarkSena]

@BoomerZ Yes, having no pressure sensitivity means you'd draw the same thickness like in the old days of paint but having more and more sensitivity I don't see any more difference. Perhaps some other artists do and it can make a huge difference for them. Wacom is using the same pens for cheap models as well for the more expensive, if you don't buy an extra piece of your choice like ballpoint etc. whatever you need the pen to use for. But being able to draw directly on the screen does make a difference in how fast you can work, true, I noticed that myself.

Sure, there's a huge difference if you make a huge canvas for a museum which will hang there for some time and something you create for the web, those are really two completely different things. I haven't said that not great art with a great plot-line is completely outta game and is doomed to fail but I still see how people (including myself) crave detailed, colorful and highly aesthetic things

[Nugtown]

I think it's cool but I can't say I value them more or less, I only care if the story is engaging. But, traditional drawing can make for interesting artistic decision making like in the case of Takahashi Tsutomu, who's a multimedia guy. Traditional ink can give work a kind of "tooth" that can't really be replicated by digital ink.

I started off drawing digitally, but it gave me a few problems. I had issues keeping myself from zooming in when drawing panels, that lead to spending too much time with details no one would be able to see. It also took longer to complete a page due to fatigue from looking at my screen. Sketching and Inking traditionally remedied those problems immediately and I went from being able to complete one page every 3 days to a page a day. It's fast, it's right in front of me. There's no disconnect between hand and pen.

If I could go back to doing everything digitally I probably would, if I didn't deal with so many roadblocks caused just by looking at the screen. Shit just tires me out and hurts my eyes.

[DarkSena]

@UrMom Wow, it seems like that your mom at least kept everything from you The moment I decided that manga style is what I wanna do I got no understanding in my family, haha. My mom kept saying I should be drawing something different than those "monsters" It's sad how some people view manga style as some kind of weird trash. I definitely don't have anything left from an early age but I do have some really old doodles when I started watching anime, those thing were so horendous

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that but with the time as my style kinda finalized I was able to draw much faster, esp after I joined Instagram, I wanted to draw much things outta portfolio and other things so I started taking part in the challenges and that did help really a lot as well

@Nugtown Hey there, nice to meet you That's an interesting experience you had, it's nice that you have found a way how to handle your problems. I must say that I also am much faster in terms of how fast one page gets done in traditional compared to digital, so we might have that in common. One page can be done for me in one day if I know exactly what I want and I don't need to brainstorm for way too long

I still do remember the times when I have been drawing with the mouse, that gave me so much hand-ache. Esp the really old mouses were everything but ergonomical so your hand just died after short time actually trying to draw something, haha.

[candiedcotton]

I used to feel the same as OP, back when I myself drew comics traditionally. I felt for various reasons they had more value when traditional. Either because they were less common, or there is no undo button, or it's more 'involved', or you had the true physical original that you could touch, etc etc etc.

Completely honest, I was just making up excuses to make myself feel better (and probably, honestly, came off as uppity) because it was a dwindling medium and just... genuinely could not-- and still cannot-- compare to the sensibility of using digital medium if you're working professionally. I wanted to feel special, rather than outdated.

But I was outdated. And I was blinding myself to the reality that if I wanted to produce solid, quality work in a timely manner and with the greatest ease available to me as an artist, I'd needed to move to digital. Eventually I did, and I can confirm without question that I'd have been a fool to stick to traditional. I'd never be able to churn out colorful episodes with nice backgrounds and depth at the rate I am able to, otherwise.

This is my own experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is very common. I'm ashamed of the mindset I had back then, but I'm glad I grew out of it, and now I simply see good art as good art, regardless the medium. Whether traditional or otherwise has no impact on the value of the work.

[DarkSena]

@candiedcotton Outdated? That's a bit harsh isn't it? I think for an artist is important to be versatile, meaning that we should be able to manage different mediums but honestly I do feel sad that traditional art is starting to completely dissapear from the artists portfolio, it makes me feel sad if you say it's outdated

Of course the connection to make your art you bring to life on paper has to be brought into pixels if you are putting it anywhere. I never saw digital art as inferior or superior. I have been using copic markers for over a decade now and I don't feel like I am behind or anything. Actually I cannot say that the drawing I do with them are any less valuable than anything you'd be able to do with digital art but a nice thing is you own the only original, that's something I really value.

I don't see why you should feel ashamed that you had a different mindset than the one you are having right now. Everyone does evolve in some kind of way, the most important is that you are fine where you are right now, that's the only thing that matters

[Nugtown]

I find a little solidarity with people who draw traditionally. Overall there doesn't feel like there are a whole lot of us, there's a lot of interesting things to learn about using dip pens, or even just pens in general. It takes a certain confidence to say "fuck it, we ball" and own mistakes (before uh, scanning it and fixing it that way lol)

Yeah i'd also have to add that it's not easy on my hands. The most I can do with a tablet pen is wrap it to make the grip more comfortable but it doesn't work great.
Drawing isn't easy on my hands in general, but I picked up a comfortable pencil (chunky Delguard pencil, the size does a good job of controlling monster grip) that more or less covered that.

There's something about using a tablet i've never been able to just "get over". I'm not a fan of screen tablets since they come with their own issues (namely parallax) I just don't like feeling held back by my medium.
Speed has always been important in terms of what I can put out, since things were already slow. People seem to appreciate my art enough so I don't get wrapped up in whether the quality is suffering. I just do the best I can.

Last time I drew with a mouse I was probably 14. Most people didn't even know drawing tablets existed back then

[river121693]

as both a reader and artist, I know how much more work it is to make traditional comics over digital so I always see them as a little bit more special. I also love the natural texture of a traditional comic. It's not make-or-break, but it is another quality to add to how I like the art.

[candiedcotton]

It's outdated in the same way handmade ceramics or handknitted clothes are outdated. There are more modern tools to create the end product more efficiently and with less cost, and that enables the product to be made more quickly. This has become industry standard. It doesn't mean other methods are somehow worse or better in value.

I am also only speaking from my experience, and for me, yes, I was outdated in my methods. I was making up reasons and excuses to justify my unwillingness to grow with the times, basically. In doing so, I put traditional art on a pedestal to make myself feel better, when in reality I was just being a snob and devaluing the work of digital artists to make myself feel better.

And I think other people have probably had that moment before as well, and might be able to relate to that same experience. I can't say if you do/will/might in the future/etc., but these are my experiences personally.

This was also something I experienced over ten years ago, and even then, traditional art at industry level was a rapidly dying breed.

[margodraws]

Oh I'm always extra impressed by traditional comics! But with digital's flexibility and infinite undos it makes total sense why most webtoons are digital these days. I make comics digitally, but I enjoy traditional for one-off illustrations.

[DarkSena]

@river121693 It's very nice to see people around who do appreciate traditional comics in this digital age But of couse it doesn't really matter with what medium is the comic drawn, you can see and feel the passion and the amount of time artists put in their work I do appreciate the most.

@margodraws True, true, with digital you can edit the pages so much easier or completely change the colors in a few minutes, it's so very convenient to work with it. I can also see how one shots can be easy to be made with traditional. By the way I really like your comic

[UrMom]

@DarkSena Aw man, I'm sorry about that! My mom used to draw a lot, so she was pretty supportive. Plus it gave me something to focus on since I had a bit of a rough childhood. Also it sucks you didn't get to keep a lot of your early stuff, but at least your got some doodles, them being horrendous is what makes them charming. I'm sure you've grown a lot since then.

That's awesome! Doesn't it feel great when your style starts solidifying and all that practicing you did starts sinking in? Back in my late teens there was this huge jump in style that finalized the visuals I have now, and while I'm ready to branch out more with mediums, it felt pretty great to start grasping everything.

@candiedcotton I'm pretty sure you're not doing this, but calling traditional art outdated is devaluing it a bit. While it doesn't work for commercial use in the modern day, it still holds up to be just as valuable in museums, galleries and direct commissions. Like, my cousin is a traditional painter who makes a pretty good living off commission and gallery sales. I don't see how it's outdated just because corporations don't have use for it, and I don't think it's uppity or putting it on a pedestal to think it isn't.

Same with traditionally made ceramics, handmade clothes, blankets and toys. I still see plenty of people who want those things because the artists have unique designs and patterns you can't find in chain stores, or they like the quality of the handmade items over factory made. They're not outdated at all, they're just thriving in different markets. I mean, you don't have to do traditional work yourself, but it's not any less valuable just because you personally don't get any use out of it.

Again, not saying you believe traditional art is inferior or anything, just wanted to say it's not as obsolete as you think it would be.

[Caro]

I just do my pencils and inks traditionally but color them digitally.

I can work digitally but I don’t enjoy it, I work really fast on paper after having done it in a professional capacity for a few years now (if I’m in a pinch I have been able to whip out ten pages in a day), and I just don’t like having to look at screens all day.

Most people don’t even realize that I do any part traditionally until I show off my “project piles”. I do all of my commissions this way, I’ve done work for animation this way, etc. its never stopped me in any capacity. My partner also works the same way and he has more animation credits and books than I do having been in the game a little bit longer than me.

I also really like the added benefit of being able to sell original art and it has gotten me out of some tough spots over the years. Most of them sell for around $150-400 depending on the page and I draw roughly 300-400 pages of comics in a year so it can be a lot. Granted, its a pain to do and I don’t do it unless I need fast cash which hasn’t happened in a good long while but I also have the option of working with a dealer if I want to lean more on selling originals.

I have a lot of other full time colleagues who work traditional and lots who haven't picked up a pen and pencil in years. Whatever takes you there.

[candiedcotton]

I'm pretty sure you're not doing this, but calling traditional art outdated is devaluing it a bit. While it doesn't work for commercial use in the modern day, it still holds up to be just as valuable in museums

I think you're reading into my post too much and taking what I clarified as my personal experience as somehow insinuating this should be and is the case for everyone. But I already clarified that further in my next post, so I'm not sure why you're interpreting it this way.

To be very clear, since I think some people are missing this:

It's outdated in the same way handmade ceramics or handknitted clothes are outdated. There are more modern tools to create the end product more efficiently and with less cost, and that enables the product to be made more quickly. This has become industry standard. It doesn't mean other methods are somehow worse or better in value.

[Nugtown]

@margodraws
I get it, but I also don't. Not being able to undo something has only been an issue if my pencils weren't clear enough, I draw over something I wasn't supposed to, or ink an area that wasn't supposed to be inked. Otherwise if I can read the sketch I don't make mistakes. Going straight to ink isn't just downright insane to me, it just seems like doing things the hard way for difficulty's sake (I mean, unless you're just skilled enough to pull it off!)

@candiedcotton
I think it speaks more to a perspective rather than whether something is actually outdated or not. When talking about matters of convenience neither make a difference so long as the work is completed in a timely matter without much trouble. I think maybe... the biggest barrier would just be transferring traditional work to post online. But that's the only one I can really think of.
Keeping a flawed sentiment towards art can hold you back, it's certainly not helpful to uphold one form of art over the other just because of the medium, but I will say that there's a big difference in the skills needed to do the work in both. Obviously traditional art can require a lot more of that effort needed to make great work which is just the nature of the beast, but that's neither here nor there. Effort is a piece needed to make great art, effort alone doesn't make art good.

I have to argue that the idea of digital=faster work because of convenience is also not necessarily true. If I say, haven't developed the skills to quickly lay down lines then my skill won't somehow manifest when I draw digitally. I've seen way too many people struggle on the same section of linework for upwards of hours to believe it. I'm almost tempted to say that people just find it more convenient- not because they get the work done faster, but because most people don't find it useful to shell out for a scanner or a dedicated camera when they can choose to struggle though drawing linework instead.

Yet I can't help but think there's still something flawed about the reason behind catching up with the times, as though you had to change because that's what everyone else is doing, not because it's what you enjoyed, or because it was easier to do (in all likelyhood, i'm guessing it is) But I can't tell you what's better or easier for you. At the end of the day it doesn't matter insofar as what is easier and right for you.

[Scarlet_Cryptid]

Another die-hard marker artist here, hello.

I draw my comic traditionally, and intend to do so for the foreseeable future, partly because I love my markers, just keep getting better with them, and want to keep the overall look and feel of the comic consistent as it goes on. Jumping to digital would just be too jarring of a change.

I wouldn't say I value either medium (traditional vs digital) over the other. I'm not one of those people who think that 'digital art is cheating', because I've DONE digital. I know it's just a different way to make art and you still need to know what you're doing. Both take dedication and skill, and if you don't know what you're doing, it'll show, regardless of your medium. Both are capable of producing great art.

But I have to confess, I am usually a little more impressed by someone who manages to consistently make a quality comic with traditional media. I know how expensive that gets. I know how long it takes. I know the behind-the-scenes dance you have to do with scanners and color correction and clean up. I know how devastating it is if you make a mistake, because you often only have one shot to get it right, especially with ink. And if you can do all of that and post regularly and consistently, and your quality is good? Hats off to you, I know how hard that is.