What do you think about redemption arcs?

[Lilmonstart]

So as the the tittle says
What do you think? do you like them?
what do you think its necesary to create a good redemption arc?

[VibrantFox]

for me it depends on who's being redeemed and what for but there's also understanding the nuances of the kind of character being redeemed and the target audience of the story they're being redeemed in

like i've never seen atla but i've had to go through hearing a lot of people praise it for the quality of zuko's redemption arc even though again it's not something i've watched firsthand and thus lack context or knowledge about. then on the other hand are criticized redemption arks like the diamond's in steven universe or pink diamond and spinel

but that's why for me it's a matter of approach and then what actions or misdeeds a person/s is being redeemed for because some actually do handle it well while others come off as awkward or half-assed.

elements in redemption arks that i'm fond of are ones where the wrong is addressed even if not directly and some form of resolution happens whether that's a split for characters to grow separately, them taking time and putting forth effort to show growth with the group/protag or in proximity to them or just straight up consequences with signs of a lesson learned over time or later on in the future. that's like i can acknowledge that a show with a younger target audience may not hit all the nuances or complexities of certain situations but it's more a matter of how the author wants to express things and how they through the work are communicating/interacting with the audience (i/e is it coddling and babying or is it more mature in it's discussion while maintaining a level that said audience can understand)

obviously there's no one way to go about redemption arcs but i do think there's both good and bad ways to execute them and as such opinions about it can and in some cases are very broad and diverse

[DiegoPalacios]

It depends a lot of the execution.....

Is the change of heart believable and in-character?

Is the transition from evil to good reasonable or it is too drastic?

Do the character keeps their essence, or they feel like another completely different character?

Is the character making amends for the damage they caused?

Are the actions of the character redeemable?, or did they crossed an unforgivable line?

[EncryptedWriting]

I absolutely LOVE redemption arcs... to a degree.

There are certain things that I refuse to find redemption in and are too horrendous. However, I love to see a villian finding their way and realizing what they've done wrong and try to change it.

I also love the opposite when the protagonist goes over to evil and it leaves you like wtf

[Brumoss]

I love them. Anytime anywhere. Redemption is my weakness.

[Zhengo]

I feel like most writers and readers misunderstand what a redemption arc's purpose should be. Too many stories focus on the villain having somehow gained enough redemption brownie points for the good guys to forgive them, which to me also shows a lack of understanding of what forgiveness is about.

Most villains in stories don't really go through arcs. They're already set in their ways and usually aren't open to change. That's what makes villain redemption arcs interesting. It's one of the avenues that you can take your villain to experience character development and growth as if they were one of the protagonists. Having them be forgiven by the protagonists should be a side effect to their arc, it shouldn't be the main purpose. And hell, you don't need the protagonist to forgive them for it to be an effective redemption arc. Example: Look at Scar from FMA.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how bad the villain actually is or whatever atrocities they committed, if your main focus is to write a good arc, with no main goal to have them be forgiven at the end, then I'll say you are free to write whatever redemption arc you desire. The villain should pursue this arc for their own development, not to seek validation from the heroes. And the heroes on the other hand, should only forgive if they themselves think they are ready to forgive for the hero's own sake. No one deserves forgiveness, that's only for the victims to decide if forgiveness is what will save themselves.

Basically, your main goal for a redemption arc should be to write an interesting arc for your audiences' entertainment. Yeah, it might even provoke a negative reaction or two, depending on how far in the villain scale you have them at, but again, you shouldn't be writing this to make your audience forgive them or make the audience love them. Remember, you're writing this purely for the character's sake and their growth, no one else's. No one has to like the villain at the end of the redemption arc, the only thing that matters is what the villain goes through and how they grew from it.

So many redemption arcs fail because they don't understand this fundamental goal of what a redemption arc should be. So many stories just use redemption arcs because the writer wants to backpedal on their villain being...well...bad, and want them to join the good guys instead. And the good guys somehow have to forgive them after said villain did like, three good things and apologized. Also oftentimes, the villain never even struggled with their ideal being changed to good. They just flip a switch in their mind after maybe a talk no jutsu that they suddenly see the error of their ways and now they are good cool people. Throw in some retcons here and there about how villain didn't ACTUALLY do some bad things and bam now you can make villain join the good guys without making it too awkward right? Right?

[LunarScyphozoa]

Depends on the villain being redeemed. Were they a pure evil classic Disney villain, a good person who’s goals just were in opposition to the heroes, being brainwashed by another villain? And how long have they been a villain? All of these will affect how likely I am to believe the redemption

[FoxUnderFire]

I’m not against them, as long as they are heartfelt and fit the character. I’m a little tired of seeing “let’s make all the bad guys good guys/at least not awful”, though. I feel everyone has reasons for doing what they do, but not all of those reasons can be justified. I also think that, while villains can become heroes or change sides, it doesn’t always happen. Some villains are just villains. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be dimensional characters, but they don’t have to be “redeemed” to have depth. In the end, they make their choices. And sometimes they choose to do wrong knowing it’s wrong—reveling in the wrong, at times.

The “good vs. bad” fight isn’t very intriguing if there is no real bad, because evil exists. If it doesn’t exist in some form, all stories fall flat. That form might be emotional or circumstantial, but evil is there. As a writer, it’s your job to decide where that evil is focused.

[NickRowler]

I think it depends.

I like how Vegeta went from evil prince to grumpy dad. I think I sort of like when they still retain some sinister aspects.

I think it tends to annoy me when they go from pure evil to super nice with zero character development in the middle. Or whatever MLP did to Discord where he went from a intelligent evil mastermind to some “good” whiny idiot.

[powerplantanimations]

I love them. I think @Zhengo nailed it on the head. That's honestly my favorite thing about redemption arcs. Just villains trying their best to be good and how they're not expected to be forgiven. After all, you should be doing good from the start.

I think what I love about them the most is seeing which character gets the redemption card and how it shakes up the whole villain hierarchy. How do other villains react? Do they get inspired? Does this villain's redemption create a power vacuum? Are there assassins that still want this villain to die? How does it affect the hero's perspective? Does the villain redeem themselves, but the hero isn't aware of it?

Stuff like that. I also agree with the statement that everyone can be redeemed. I remember seeing writers putting limits on who can and cannot have this particular arc. Like they're creating this morality wall. Anything can happen in writing.

[Zhengo]

Yep, in terms of stories, people tend to conflate redemption and forgiveness together, even though they shouldn't be. Redemption is internal, something people seek out in the process of personal change. Forgiveness is external, something others give to the perpetrator of their own volition. The conflation of the two is why some people think some characters can't have redemption arcs, because they think that the bad actions previously done are unforgivable.

Though, the thing is, no matter how bad someone's actions are, nothing is actually stopping them from deciding to abandon their bad actions and decide to do good instead, other than their own internal psyche. This may be a hot take, but I think it sends out a bad message when sometimes people say a character shouldn't get a redemption arc simply because their actions are unforgiveable. External validation in the form of forgiveness shouldn't be a person's driving motivator to seek self-improvement. That's like saying a criminal shouldn't bother to rehabilitate themselves because their victims will never forgive them.

Not to say that some of these "unforgivable" type characters have been given satisfactory redemption arcs. Someone brought up the Diamonds' redemption in SU, which I agree is done badly, but mostly because of how sudden the switch is, and not really because of the whole "they're dictators!" thing I see a lot of fans cite.

[powerplantanimations]

I think what bothered me about the Diamonds is the fact that the show itself created an option of punishing the diamonds without actually killing them? When I watched the finale (I have no clue why I was watching Steven Universe to begin with lmao) I was like "Okay, but like the Diamonds poofed so many gems and all that, can you guys just poof them so they can understand what they've done to their own people? Go full blown New Testament like how God took his own medicine by crucifying himself? It looked like the Diamonds were prepared to take the extra mile, but the writers insisted they didn't". Poofing isn't really that bad either. It happens to the protags all the time. And it would've been a nice metaphor to see their designs change once they've become "born again". Like the show is already full of religious metaphors, might as well lmao. And it isn't like Foo Fighters from Jojo where it was just a confused animal doing what it thought was right. The Diamonds are probably more aware than humans are. But yeah, that's my opinion on the whole thing.

Btw if you wanna see the Steven Universe situation done better, I really recommend Macross: Do You Remember Love?

That is such a beautiful movie about redemption. Not sure if Rebecca Sugar watched it, but I'm sure she took some beats considering she's all about old anime.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Redemption is internal, something people seek out in the process of personal change. Forgiveness is external, something others give to the perpetrator of their own volition. The conflation of the two is why some people think some characters can't have redemption arcs, because they think that the bad actions previously done are unforgivable.

Though, the thing is, no matter how bad someone's actions are, nothing is actually stopping them from deciding to abandon their bad actions and decide to do good instead, other than their own internal psyche.

I think that's a really smart observation...although the aforementioned 'conflation' is a little unavoidable, due to the nebulous definitions of forgiveness and redemption.

Like, there's already the debate about whether forgiveness is something you do for your own benefit (ergo, you must forgive in order to truly heal) or something you do for the perpetrator's benefit (ergo, forgiveness must be earned, and no one is required to give it).

Redemption, being seen as a quality that someone either has or doesn't have, is even more debatable. Even if someone seeks out redemption as part of their internal struggle...are they really ever 'redeemed' if they are the only one who is conscious of this? How much do they have to do to redeem themselves? Or is the simple desire to be redeemed enough?? Do the victims' opinions on this person change the answers to these questions; or render them invalid???

Like, I think people tend to forget that for every villain there is a victim...a person's actions don't exist in a vacuum, and that's the reason why people call some things 'unforgivable' and insist that some people can't be redeemed.
How can you make up for taking away things that can't be gotten back?? From one person, to potentially millions of people?? Ruining lives for generations; destroying cultures; dooming futures to devastation and despair...?

Sure, nothing is stopping the people who do these things from making a 180 and trying to do good from now on, but like I said, redemption is a quality, and qualities are assigned. So if you insist that these people can be redeemed, you must be prepared to answer when people ask who is allowed to do the assigning, and why??

[nickolaidas]

Not all redemption stories are about a bad character repenting and becoming good.

My series is about a character who - while good - does a very bad thing and the entire point is to redeem herself for it.

[redfish]

redemption arcs are very difficult and takes a lot of time to pace out, but can make for a great character development arc.I think a lot of people enjoy them because we all make mistakes and empathize with someone who is is flawed and can inspire us to do better along with them.

A lot of rival characters are fine to redeem because in the end, they haven't done anything really heinous other than get in the protag's way and be a dick.

When it comes to redeeming people who've committed terrible crimes like murder and such, it depends on what you mean by redemption. It could simply be that they turn themselves in, save lives, sacrifice themselves for others (popular redemption for really Big Bad people). You can strike an interesting discourse on what it takes and what it means to be redeemed.

[Zhengo]

Yeah, the quality of "redeemed" is pretty subjective, though I guess in my mind I was more thinking of people who are averse to giving some people redemption arcs in general, not really the idea of labeling a character as 'redeemed'. Like, they don't want a terrible person to even grow or change a little to become a better person.

And to be fair, I don't blame them for that. Even though I think any character can go through a redemption arc, I don't actually see a lot of those "nasty person becomes nice person"-type arcs done really well because, like I said beforehand, a lot of writers seem to use these arcs to just try to have them switch side to the good guys and trying too hard to improve the audience opinion of them. So I don't really blame people for being averse when they start sniffing a redemption arc for a character who is less than savory, I get wary too because of how many failed attempts I've seen.

Though I think because of these failed attempts some people have misattributed redemption arcs as the main problem of why they failed instead of looking at the writing itself.

[smokesalty]

It needs to be executed well.

It needs to make sense to the character being redeemed, and it shouldn't be instantaneous. I've seen so many stories redeem villains terribly, and it sometimes ruins how great the villain was as well... a villain!

I'm a sucker for villain characters, so I tend to prefer when characters remain the villain. This is especially reliant on how horrible your character was as a villain- there's a point where a character may never be redeemable (which I think is actually quite interesting to explore)

I just think if someone is going to write a redemption arc, it really needs to be planned out carefully and there needs to be a purpose. A lot of the time redemption has to go with a characters goals (does it lead them down the wrong path, do they have a change of heart due to an important plot moment?) There is so much to be explored with the concept of redemption, and I feel like to many people jump onto making the villain be redeemed without any struggle or obstacles.

Redemption doesn't mean the characters have to forgive. A character can change and never be forgiven by other characters. And I find that pretty interesting!

And also- some stories don't need redemption arcs. Sometimes it doesn't work and that's fine.

[Shanny8]

Interesting topic & points...my current webcomic has a "redemption" arc that will be going through the second half of it...only when the "villain" character achieves the goal they had long desired, do they start to question themselves if that was the goal that they had desired all along. My character will question themselves throughout the arc and will receive affirmation that they can be forgiven- but not by everyone.

I'm currently working on a spin-off with said character that begins after they have served out their punishment for the crimes they committed in the webcomic. They will go their "redemption tour"(a journey of purpose and self re-discovery) that will not only bring them into conflict with new issues, but also unresolved ghosts from their past. I really look forward to diving into the psyche of this character and seeing what they are made of..!

[system]

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