What is an 'experienced writer'?

[OttoGruenwald]

I think it was Harlan Ellison that said that writers operate on gunfighter rules. A gunfighter is a gunfighter when a gunfighter says he's a gunfighter. A writer is a writer when a writer says he's a writer.

[beta1042]

I'm saying it's important if you want your story to read well. For the final product, yes it is valuable. Is it as valuable? Idk. I read Harry Potter and the writing(even with the help of editors) is pretty garbage but the creativity and world building was top notch. Which to be fair I have no idea how much experience Rowling had in writing, but assuming no one really knew who she was prior I'm guessing not a bunch?

I guess if you're really experienced at writing but not creative you could just write non-fiction tho. But I kinda assumed this topic was following fiction writers.

[Croik]

I have no idea how much writing or worldbuilding experience JRK had before HP. Clearly that didn't stop her from being successful either way, but if you really believe the writing is garbage, don't you think it might have been less garbage if she had started from a point of experience?

I guess you could call her experienced now, and her writing has definitely not improved IMO, but I'd argue that's the consequence of gaining too much success too quickly.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I guess you could call her experienced now, and her writing has definitely not improved IMO, but I'd argue that's the consequence of gaining too much success too quickly.

If you don't mind, could you explain that? 'Gaining too much success too quickly'...I'm interested to know what that means.

[Croik]

When someone does a mediocre job at something, but gets praise for it as if it is mastery, that leaves very little incentive to improve. Not that I'm saying HP specifically is mediocre, but a writer who struggled for longer before getting success (specifically in the publishing arena), who had thrown out ideas and had them thrown back, might then have the experience of "not everything I put to page is going to be good and each requires evaluation."

JRK, who went creatively unchallenged for a long time, felt the need to announce to the world that wizards used to crap their robes in public. That's one of those "logically I can't say it doesn't make sense, but WHY did you think that's a necessary part of your world-building??" issues. It is creative? I guess so. But experience ought to give a writer maturity enough to know that it's just not that great of an idea, and that people wouldn't be thrilled with all these weird canon outbursts she's had.

Kinda like M. Night Shyamalan. Got such good press so early in his career that he stopped using editors and now he's... yeah.

[beta1042]

, but if you really believe the writing is garbage, don't you think it might have been less garbage if she had started from a point of experience?

I'm saying I don't care if it was garbage, because it was consumable either way. The writing didn't need to be good to be enjoyable to read, or appeal to the masses.

And no I don't call her experienced now, because like you said she hasn't improved and its probably due to her rapid success. Also I wonder how many times she even went through her own draft of the later HP books... I imagine there was a team of editors ready to help push those books out as quickly as possible.

[therealbereth]

The writing didn't need to be good to be enjoyable to read, or appeal to the masses.

Back then perhaps, when we were still kids. I mean I grew up on Harry Potter, and it gave me so much (especially through the character of Hermione). But today? I can't read it because it lacks technique. Any technique at all, in fact! Rowling certainly had that certain spark and intuition to bring across what she wanted to tell – but did she bring it across just how she wanted to? Did she even think about the "how"?

It led to her just bursting out things like "actually Dumbledore is gay", which is never mentioned in canon, and it's just... lazy. I agree with @Croik here: more experience would've made the books an immeasurably better work that I would be proud to be reading until today.

The way it went, though, not so much.

That's what happens when you have a great idea, but lack the experience to enrich it further. I still love the world, and it will always hold a special place in my heart. But it is undeniable that it could've been better.

Creative works don't always need to be "better", of course. They can just be fun, speak to a generation with their themes (of which there are many in HP, to stay with this example), and they can be just as culturally formative as something that took decades to come to fruition – see Lord of the Rings.

You say that writing doesn't need to be good to be enjoyable, and to a certain degree, I agree with you. But I think you're focusing too much on the writing. A good writer is not necessarily a good storyteller. Rowling clearly has a knack for storytelling. THAT made HP enjoyable. There's a difference between writing and storytelling. To craft something exceptional, I think you need both skills. A work is enjoyable and just fine when it has either of those two. But both? Hoo boy.

I know for a fact that I am not necessarily the best storyteller, for example. This is why I focus on the writing, the techniques. To make it enjoyable in that regard – with evoking the reactions in readers I want them to have, through the "right" words.

Maybe we need to separate these skill sets more from each other, in order to look at what an "experienced writer" is?

[ViktorGrim]

An experienced writer is one who has advanced their skills in the craft. Better skill in the craft enables you to better formulate your "raw creativity/talent" into something more.

Consider an amateur writer. We'll use my fiancee for example. She's a great story teller, but her writing skills lack... Polish. She's been telling stories for decades, but hasn't actually attempted to write anything polished since high school. A small excerpt from her new Apex Legends fanfic.

He got her attention again. Wraith turned and walked back figuring that she ran away, “That's done, now for that face.”
Octane forced himself onto his front and was going to crawl until Wraith came and grabbed his vest. She dragged him to the wall and forced him to sit up against it. It was the best way to get all the headgear he wore off and a good look at his face.
He used the energy he had left to try and put a fight and prevent giving her what she wanted. He couldn’t make it where he wanted before he would bleed out now. His eyesight began to fade in and out before being forced against the wall.
Ajay was counting the seconds mentally of how long she would have to get to him before he died. If this didn’t work she would die with him. She entered in from the other door kicking it open and rushing in. She managed to punch Wraith forcing her off him and back towards the other door now. She managed to get another hit in before Wraith on her own backed up enough to put herself in the doorway.
Lifeline threw her last arc star managing to stick her with it and punching her once more off the pathway. She watched it explode on the way down only standing there long enough to confirm she was dealt with.

Now, if you've played Apex Legends, you'd know it's a fast-paced hero-focused battle royale PVP shooter and could possibly appreciate the brevity in the writing. This is about 30% stylistic choice, 70% "I don't write action well, I write smut scenes". It's written for people who already know the game. They'd be able to visualize what actually happened that fight, which is why she isn't too worried about it in its current state..

Conversely, if a writer with a bit more polish wrote that section of the fight, it might look something like this. (Note: this example is going to reference that he was shanked with Wraith's void dagger, which in her fic can disrupt the "bannering"/resurrection of people and actually kill them.)

Wraith kept the peacekeeper aimed at the door for a few seconds. She kept her head slightly cocked, listening for any signs of Lifeline returning. Satisfied, she pivoted on her heel, bringing her attention back to Octane. "Now... That face."
Octane kept pressure on the gaping hole in his side as he rolled onto his front, gritting his teeth as he did his best to avoid bleeding out. If only I hadn't lost my legs, he thought bitterly to himself, Ajay, don't be dead. He did his best, but there was only so far he could go by dragging himself with a single arm.
Wraith caught up with him easily, grabbing his vest and flipping him over. She considered him for a brief moment before dragging his bleeding ass to the wall and shoving him against it. He struggled, until she kicked him in the gut and forced him back upright with her boot. She leaned in, pressing against the wound as she reached for his mask.
Octane for his part made a valiant effort. Whether it was pure determination, the residuals of the stims in his system, or just plain stubbornness, he was preventing her from taking off his mask. Batting her hands away, twisting, leaning, anything to prevent her from her from attaining her goal. Wraith didn't mind, he was getting weaker every second. It wasn't long before Octane blew through what little energy he had left, he knew this was it. His vision first blurred, then started fading in and out.
Ajay Che, amor.... Lo siento.
Lifeline took a deep, steadying breath. Seven... Eight... Nine.... Ten! She booted the door open with all the fury of Bangalore trapped in behind a door blocked by Caustic's gas, and sprinted at the pair. She was more focused than even Bloodhound when they smelled blood. If she couldn't actually save Octavio, she'd let the sci-fi ninja bitch end her too. Wraith's head snapped up as the voices from the void gave their warning. It was too late, Lifeline's look of anger and determination left her momentarily off balance. The sound of bone on bone resonated through Cage as Wraith staggered off Octane towards the opposite door.
Never one to waste an opportunity, Lifeline dropped into a slide, springing off the ground with a vicious uppercut. Wraith's block did little more than angle Lifeline's punch from what would've been her chin and into her solar plexus. Wraith staggered back before strafing while drawing out her peacekeeper.
Lifeline chased, leaping over the low-angled shotgun blast that Wraith was expecting another dash-slide uppercut. Boot met face, sending Wraith reeling. Wraith never noticed Lifeline pulling out the glowing metal shuriken after the uppercut. She certainly noticed it now as the thing stuck in her left shoulder, the lights glowing brighter as she mis-stepped.
Lifeline stood on the edge of the walkway, watching Wraith explode in mid air as she fell. She devoted a few seconds watching Wraith's prone body for any signs of movement. twenty six... twenty seven... twenty eight... She spun on her heel, grabbing her D.O.C drone out of its holster on her thigh as she walked back over to her childhood friend.

If I wasn't sitting on over twenty years of writing fight scenes, I wouldn't have been able to get that granular, and even then it's a half-assed half-asleep first draft. I know exactly where I'd put in a few more sensory cues if I could be bothered.... Do people prefer it over the simpler, quicker read? That's a matter of preference for the reader, and I know from experience both have an audience that would enjoy them.

[Luminosophy]

Feedback, for one.

Experience comes from improvement, and improvement comes from learning. One way to do that is through feedback -- maybe through an editor or through other peers.

Feedback, feedback, feedback!!! Such an important yet often overlooked tool. : 'D

Sometimes you can just get stuck and plateau in progression. You're blinded by your own work, because you're only operating within your own frame of reference and knowledge. Having more experienced peers or mentors point out problems can skyrocket your progress in a considerably short amount of time just by introducing you to new concepts you never considered before.

[burginlewis]

I agree with @JRHoch about "experienced writers" being those who've earned money doing it. Although we might need to insert shades of gray here. I have done tech writing professionally. I'm under no illusion that magically made me an experienced novelist. Definitely still working on the latter.

Also, I recall that twenty-odd years ago, it was accepted wisdom in writing and publishing that the apprenticeship period for a novelist was their first half a million words. (Not joking. Google it.) So I guess another working definition of an experienced writer could be "anyone on word 500,001?"

[ViktorGrim]

Actually, being paid is generally the dividing line between "Amateur" and "Professional". Just as the diving line between "writer" and "author" is whether or not one has been published. Experience doesn't have anything to do with being paid. Experience is defined, as per dictionaries, "the knowledge or skill acquired by experience over a period of time, especially that gained in a particular profession by someone at work."

I've spent the last decade and a half taking care of my dying and elderly family members. I've learned via trial-by-fire how to manage their medication, get them from point A to point B, clean up after them, etc. I would say I'm an experienced caregiver by this point. Am I a professional? No, I've never actually been paid for it. Do I know everything? No. Could I effectively babysit someone with dementia even though I'm not a "licensed caregiver"? You bet your ass.

[therealbereth]

I would also caution against using the "experienced = paid" narrative. It leads to elitism in the writing community. Is someone who has written for maybe two years more experienced than someone who's been at it for over a decade, simply because they took to an agent and were pulled under contract? No. They may be more experienced when it comes to querying and the business behind it, but that has nothing to do with actual writing.

[yansusu]

To add to that: Not everybody even has the goal of getting paid. Some people just consider writing their hobby and are happy if they can share it only for free. That doesn't mean they don't gather experience though or develop over time.

[therealbereth]

Yes, and don't forget all the talented and experienced fanfiction writers! Many of them produce gems the quality of which you won't find on the market at all, simply because they've developed a style that surpasses any first-time writer who gets published traditionally.

In general, self-published or free work needs to be acknowledged more. I'm not a big reader of fanfiction (I used to dive into Zelda fics, back in the day, before I started writing some myself), but the narrative of "paid" or "under contract" = "experienced" throws all of these writers under the bus, so...

Let's not do that, shall we?

[AVXP]

Let's not do that, shall we?

Professional is both a noun and an adjective. "Professional" work is a statement about the quality of your work. It means "You create (stuffs) at such a high level that it is worthy of being sold." Usually that means "finished" which is what a lot of pre-pros tend to stop short of. At the hobbyist level, one is still afforded excuses. They can back down from criticism and hide behind the status of 'not being that serious' and naming all the challenges they face(d).

I've even heard the "No one is paying me to..." line, which I find ironic.
So I would admit there is a difference in the type of experience between doing something a lot, well and doing that thing 'on a professional level'. I'm not a big fan of mixing those two worlds together since the mind sets vary so much and it almost never goes well.

Which in turn makes it very hard to get/take professional advice or get the blueprint from the very successful.
What we usually get is/are observers trying to reverse engineer the 'experience' based on the results.

[therealbereth]

We were talking about experienced, though, not "professional". Different conversation.

[AVXP]

I would admit there is a difference in the type of experience between doing something a lot, well and doing that thing 'on a professional level'.

Same conversation. Professional experience should be valued more than general experience.
And since this is the original question

And how can a novice writer or new writer gain from your input as an 'experienced writer'?

The answer would be X and much more if there's been a professional 'experience' thrown in there.

[yansusu]

I think if we want to take this into consideration, we'd have to define 'professional experience' much more explicitly first. Like, you mentioned:

"You create (stuffs) at such a high level that it is worthy of being sold."

So, what does that even mean? Even if we take out people who write as a hobby and just look at people who write for a living, there'd be at least the routes of traditional publishing, self-publishing and hybrid.
Now, who says what is of a high enough level that would be worthy of being sold? Agents and similar don't apply to self-publishing. (And I've seen novels published by 'publishing houses' that were so bad I wouldn't even know what to say about them in regards to any part of their writing.)
So then, is it the audience that decides since them buying or not will decide whether it's worth selling or not? But then where is the difference between the professionals or the hobbyists? Because the audience would decide in regards to the hobbyists as well with whether they're reading or not. The only difference would be whether they have to pay or not. So does that mean that the experience would get 'professional' as soon as the author slaps a price tag on the novel?

[AVXP]

It's weird to answer questions about what I wrote with ...what I wrote.

You create (stuffs) at such a high level that it is worthy of being sold.
So, what does that even mean?

I said: "adjective. "Professional" work is a statement about the quality of your work."
Someone says "Wow, your stuff looks professional" They mean it looks worthy of being sold.

Next question
So then, is it the audience that decides since them buying or not will decide whether it's worth selling or not?
No, the store does. Most stores don't take just anything and there is a level of the 'same professionalism' that goes into what stores sell what. We all know the difference between a place that sells anything that a vendor wishes to sell and a place where there is an entry bar. Without even selling a single unit you can get a "Congratulations for getting your stuff on there."

Next question
does that mean that the experience would get 'professional' as soon as the author slaps a price tag on the novel?

Do you mean after they've brought it to market? Yes. They would be (should be) able to answer all the questions about publishing their own book. Using their experience about finishing a book and getting it on [insert selling place].

question
But then where is the difference between the professionals or the hobbyists?
This is a can of worms and in the context of THIS conversation, I would say it's about your ultimate goal and possible goals you have not yet imagined. I'm only advising - valuing advice from someone who has done what you are trying to do.

[yansusu]

Thanks for taking the time to answer with some more detail! I feel like I do understand better what you meant before. I'll have to meditate on this for a while.