When Fandoms Take Things Too Far

UrMom 2017-07-27 19:40:05 UTC #14

Huh, I didn't see anything about trans stuff, but a lot of people having a problem with some artists making the really fat dads hour-glass chicks with GINORMOUS tits. The excuses behind the skinny chicks was the artists not wanting to make the genital swapped characters "ugly". Which I can see how this would piss people off, even if you've never drawn a fat character before if you're drawing a preexisting character (even genital swapped) don't draw a fat one if you think they look ugly. Leave the fat, poc, trans, etc character alone if you don't intend to keep them that way.
But of course that doesn't condone harassment, going after someone in droves over a drawing is gross? Yeah, the artist could have done better, but it's a fucking drawing.

On the SU thing, I remember that. I actually follow the artist who was harassed. Apparently according to the fandom they didn't draw rose quartz fat enough, then they made a native american inspired fluttershy drawing which I thought was cute, but everyone said it was racist cuz her skin was slightly ruddy. (despite people of native decent defending them) After that people raided all their art, flooded everything with insulting comments, sending death threats, doxxing threats. The SU creators went to defend them but were attacked by their fans in the process, then the artist attempted suicide. After that the harassment mostly stopped, but they still got some shit for a while.
That poor kid too, so many people trying to do them real harm over some drawings. Personally after seeing that I became kind of disturbed by the idea of "too many fans", when in droves they can be like army ants, destroying everything in their wake. Someone can say one wrong thing, and they'll all attack, even worse when the popular creator sicks the fans on the person.

NickRowler 2017-07-27 20:16:57 UTC #15

The Native American Fluttershy was a bit racially insensitive, even if there was good intentions, it was in poor taste. However the artist did take down the pic and apologized. The issue is, even if there is a take down and apology, the haters will still go after the person.

There is a Youtuber who is really guilty of this. His viewers are mostly teens and tweens which makes it worse.

Kayke 2017-07-27 20:23:13 UTC #16

Yeah, I feel like most of the drama started because the artist made the fat -dad into a mom with comically big boobs and no bra. Or at least that's mostly what I was seeing on my twitter feed. Then a few trans folk were asking if the character was being drawn as a trans woman or if they were being drawn as someone who was born a woman (one of which would be an issue) and I guess it escalated from there.

This phenomenon of fans attacking fan-artists and smaller creators (think storyboard artists, podcasters, and indie cartoonists) had been going on for a while for a few reasons.
-Trying to get your voice heard by a bigger creator (movie studios, etc) is not as easy, bigger creators rarely listen to fans because they can make movies that flop because of white-washing or insensitivity to lgbtq+ characters and it doesn't matter to them. If even financial flops aren't making them pay attention, a few angry tweets isn't going to cut it.
-So, these typically young fans, feel unheard and unhappy with the media they see on a daily basis, but they can't get Warner Brothers to pay attention. They CAN however get the McElroy Brothers and other small/indie creators to read their tweets and emails.
-Sometimes this is good! Like telling if a fan writes in to tell a podcaster they're accidentally using an offensive term for a group of people and the host can correct that and apologize. Direct fan interaction + creator who is paying attention = good in that case
-Other times, people take it, as you said "too far". Everyone wants to get in on it. So if one person is like "hey this kind of offends me personally" to the creator in a public sphere and then others see it and comment that they're also offended and soon people are looking for other things to be upset about and they want to be the most upset because it's cathartic and because they feel like it's accomplishing something. They feel powerful in a way they probably don't get to usually... and things get out of hand.

And this is a problem because usually (I'm not talking about the Dream Mommy thing at this point, more about the issue as a whole) they attack creators who are attempting to create diverse and sensitive media. But it's those people who care about the feelings of their fans who are most likely to listen. The easiest targets. This goes for fan-artists as well, because unlike indie creators they're not even used to getting that much attention. Sometimes the day they get negative attention because of something taking off on twitter is the most attention they've ever gotten, and it's negative, so obviously that can have a big effect on a person. It can even scare people off from creating things that handle certain topics for fear that they'll do something offensive.

I think laying all the blame on the fandoms themselves might be misplaced though. A lot of the issues come from the people in the fandoms still being young and not knowing how to handle their feelings about certain sensitive topics and lashing out. I think if media as a whole were to become more inclusive so that these fans weren't just looking toward small time creators for that kind of content... and also not expecting that content to be perfect because there's such a limited amount of it that they need it to be perfect, then this issues might die down. BUT who knows when that will happen, big studios and publishers take a while to listen to fans. It's easier to blame declining sales on things like millennials and netflix than to check twitter and see that people want to see more variety in their media. Disney seems to be getting it now, so maybe others will follow.

UrMom 2017-07-27 20:28:54 UTC #17

It's understandable since there's some dark history related to redface, but it wasn't the worst thing. Hell, I visited the blackfeet tribe part of my family descended from a while back and couple of the members did have a similar ruddyness, but every race has some people with more red complexions.
While I and other's didn't have a problem, it's definitely a controversial area. But honestly, the drawing wasn't harassment worthy, and I'm pretty sure most of the harassers were "ally" types since that's how Tumblr usually rolls.

Lol, is it Killer Keenstar...keemstar, what's his face?

Not holding my breath, but still casually awaiting the day Disney makes a movie featuring queer characters that aren't villains... even though those villains were awesome!

TACOBERTO 2017-07-27 21:31:46 UTC #18

This whole debacle was almost record time for how quickly a fandom has devolved in to death threats.

Being FAN art the artist has the right to draw gender bends of the characters as she interpreted and even then they were pretty spot on reflections of the main cast of Dream Daddy. To say this was blown out of proportion is putting it lightly. There is never an excuse to send death threats

And as much as I hate to say it, and trust me I really do, it's communities like these that this game and other such media that sell themselves as being tolerant and inclusive that turn around and are openly hostile to those that set one foot out of line and make fan art that is not 100% correct to THEIR view on [Insert Character here]. (need I bring up the infamous SU case?)

Shanny8 2017-07-27 21:37:00 UTC #19

I 've never been big on stuff like Sims or Second Life, so I dont really pay much attention to the Dream Daddy thing.

The whole fandom thing has gone out of whack- instead of allowing people to be a fan of something for their own reasons, others want them be part of a 'one thought' collective- and when they disagree, that's when the madness starts. The reasons I may like a thing may be different from the reasons someone else likes a thing- and I'm good with that. People need to learn to be accepting that others have their own reasons and opinions about a thing that they are a fan of.

joannekwan 2017-07-27 21:45:35 UTC #20

This was a really good article I read a while ago about Fandoms. It's not directly related to harassment of fanartists, but it does emphasize the entitlement a lot of fans have that pushes them to demand things of other people. And since fanartists are easier to contact than professionals, the amount of cases like this is not surprising.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-07-27 22:02:13 UTC #21

I really don't get the "getting offended thing" it's a piece of paper with lines and paint it ain't doing anything its only ofensive if you yourself let it and if a piece of art makes you feel ofended then don't see/watch it is so easy (also the creator sicking his fans is such an embarrasment on the fandom and creator)

indagold 2017-07-27 23:24:24 UTC #22

Sending death threats over a genderswap over a game that I don't even think is even released yet and people justifying it because the character might be trans is a new level of stupid. I don't get PC culture in fandoms at all, it's not helping anyone or addressing real issues, just people nitpicking things at this point.

heterodont 2017-07-27 23:38:46 UTC #23

dream daddy was released like a week ago and the character that 'might' be trans says at one point he has binders and the creators of the game confirmed he's FTM.

I definitely agree with everything else though. Definitely the nitpicking thing as well, people seem to think any media that features LGBT characters HAS to be completely pristine & innocent with no issues whatsoever. It has to be a slowburn coffee shop fic where no characters ever have conflicts in their lives ever, otherwise its homophobic/transphobic/etc. People seem to forget that people who identify under the LGBT umbrella are literally just, people.

LordVincent 2017-07-28 01:02:12 UTC #24

The things you can complain about in fandoms is pretty much the same as what you can complain about in any kind of group mentality. Even the most oppressed of people can become just the type of bully they hate if they are in a group that confirms their bias and if they feel that their agressive actions are justified.

As for the trans/Lgbt side of this issue, I feel like what you mentioned here is a core actor in this situation. If you want to make a genderbend, go ahead. I don't really mind. But if it's an ftm man, make it an mtf woman or otherwise transgender nonbinary (who said genderbends have to be binary? There's a huge world of activism to be explored in nonbinary genderbends). Making the character not transgender in a genderbend will do two things...

It's no longer that character. The transgender aspect was a core piece of their identity.
Transgender people are constantly being fed a message when they walk through life. When they meet new people, when they talk about their experience, and more than anything when they seek healthcare in regards to transition. This message basically goes that cis people think that the thing transgender people ultimately want is to be cis. As if cis is this elite form of existence. Cis people either laugh at us or pity us for the fact that we will never be cis. Many trans people internalize this and end up believing that they will never be valuable or happy. Genderbending a transgender character into a cis person would either force this person into the gender they were stuck pretending so hard to be, or it would confirm the message i mentioned earlier. The notion that hey wouldn't it be so much better if they were just, you know, not trans.
We already deal with this when we seek medical help. The doctors basically want to either force you into a gender that aligns with your body, or they will try to make you change your body and identity to suit the binary opposite as well as possible. This is so that you can pass as cis. Because cis is the ultimate form of existence, right?

I'm not personally offended that some person drew a trans dude as a woman. It's a random drawing, it doesn't affect my life. I'm just telling you why some people might be offended and in which circumstance this feeling might be justified to some extent.
At the end of the day, fact remains that a hugeass attack on a person is neither okay nor productive.

...oh, and, sidenote. People keep complaining about how "YOU CAN'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT DIS ANYMORE". You do realize that dem old peeps were saying the exact same thing when joking about "killing n---ers" wasn't okay anymore, right? Just because joking about something was socially okay yesterday, that doesn't mean it didn't contribute to unhealthy shit in society.

I could go on for hours about this but let's make it simple: You can joke about trans things just like you can joke about aspects of any other group. Hell, I joke about my 1 inch dick all the time. But if you are doing it with mocking/cruel intentions, or if your entire punchline is "LOL IT'S A TRANS PERSON" or "WOW TRANS PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTING (See: Family Guy, the scene where Brian throws up for a FULL MINUTE when he realizes a woman that he had sex with used to have a dick)" that's a problem. Trans and gay people are tired of their entire existence being either a sin or a joke. We are also tired of people framing us as the most disgusting type of human there is, only to be called "triggered bitches who need to take a joke" if we protest.

Basically, laugh with us. Not at us.

Wow this post became long.
Oops.

GoldenPlume 2017-07-28 05:25:41 UTC #25

This seems to becoming an almost daily thing. What was it, Tuesday? there was large scale media coverage (made our Daily Briefing) about the huge blow up in the Supergirl fandom for one actor making some statements towards shipping, "e.g. hey fans, that ship ain't gonna happen". (And no this isn't FedEx shipping but relation-shipping.) Fans went bonkers.

It's becoming exhausting to the point of just putting it all on ignore. If everyone puts it on ignore then whatever the fandom is trying to achieve will ultimately fall on deaf ears.

It's one thing to say "the house is on fire!" occasionally, but every single day?

TheKawaiiGarden 2017-07-28 16:39:51 UTC #26

To me nothing is sadder than when a fandom has gotten so bad/toxic that its ruining other peoples enjoyment of the original material... Makes it really hard to be a fan of something without people thinking you are a part of them.

joannekwan 2017-07-28 16:44:56 UTC #27

This is so true! Even when it's not direct!
Like I loved the game, and was set on completing all the routes but after seeing all of this (not just the bad stuff but all the still existing hype and extra-ness of fans who aren't doing anything wrong) I am not as motivated? And a damper has definitely been put on my will to do more fanart, not because I'm afraid I'll be attacked for it, but I don't feel like competing with all the stuff that's out there already.

I couldn't really get into the fandom anyway because it's tied too closely with Game Grumps and I just don't particularly enjoy their content.

N1ghtm4r3 2017-07-28 23:35:03 UTC #28

just shows some people get far to attached to things, its both laughable and sad that a fandom blows its top over a rule 63 version of a character,unless the creator says something about a particular piece of art its officially a non issue

Luminosophy 2017-07-29 01:32:26 UTC #29

I'm starting to feel jaded by this to the point where my response upon hearing these stories is "meh, just another day on the internet." I feel like the best response artists/ creators have to these types is to outright ignore them. They're only behaving this way because they feel powerless (emotionally manipulating creators into changing characters/ stories their way), so just strip them of their podium and let them scream into the abyss.

gateofselidor 2017-07-29 10:56:40 UTC #30

The fandom for the game is pretty awful. I ventured into the tumblr tag after playing a couple of routes and there was a lot of drama on just about every topic you could imagine.

I can't say the gender swap particularly bothers me, beyond it being basically like every male to female gender swap ever by making them thinner, giving most of them really large breasts and more revealing outfits than their original counterparts. If anything, I think it would be more awkward if they excluded Damien instead of just treating him like the rest of the cast. There's definitely some art of him out there that makes me uncomfortable, but not the gender swap.

I'm going to hazard a guess that most of the outrage (from actual trans people, not just allies who think they're helping) is going to be from people who are not transitioning, or early in their transition. I know I was pretty sensitive about that sort of thing before I was mostly passing, but as I settled into normal life, living either stealth or among people who supported me, I relaxed a lot. I don't even care if people misgender me any more, unless it's clearly malicious (which is extremely rare - most people are just making an honest mistake). I certainly care about transphobia, but it's hard for me to get upset by this kind of fandom drama.

Honestly, I don't even think Damien is a particularly realistic, relatable trans guy. He's drawn with a really exaggerated masculine triangle shape that even the rest of the cast don't have, with really broad shoulders and tiny hips, and while there may be someone out there somewhere with that shape, the vast majority of trans guys just don't look like that for obvious reasons. That combined with his thoroughly weird personality (I know he gets fleshed out on his route) makes it hard for me to actually relate to him in any way, so maybe it's just harder for me to get offended on his behalf anyway.

LordVincent 2017-07-29 15:06:04 UTC #31

I have not played this game myself, but I just quick google searched Damien. I don't care what's "realistic" and what isn't because I feel like saying what is and what isn't will throw all trans men into the same box. We all have different bodies, and some of us are broad shouldered. Some even pass long before they realize they are trans.

Right off the bat, I have to say that I like that they weren't afraid to give him long hair and makeup - and he is still clearly male and respected as such. I feel like there's a push, coming both from cis people and even some other trans people, for us trans men to all look and behave as masculine as we can so we absolutely pass without failure and thoroughly prove what a man we are.

Then again, this expectation lies on cis men too.
Seeing media that challenges this norm and celebrates individuality is lovely, imo.

Jophiel 2017-07-29 15:23:52 UTC #32

One thing's for sure is this mentality where people in media think that every representation they can get their hands on has to be "pure", the majority of it towards media with LGBT+ characters. The deal with these people is that liking something problematic in fiction equals to condoning it which is a no no. Apparently presenting those in fiction is even romanticizing it according to the Tumblr people.

Atleast that's what I see or from what I observed. It's good to see that some members of the game dev team do not tolerate such actions, though honestly their fandom could use some fans with actual manners and less entitlement.

LordVincent 2017-07-29 15:46:38 UTC #33

There's a huge difference between presenting an issue vs romanticizing it.
The most common and clearest issue i can think of when it comes to represent vs romanticizing, is rape and abuse occurring in a relationship.

Represent = it's there and it's meant to be fucked up, or the characters grow and learn that it's wrong.
Romanticize = it's there and the one being abused is thinking to themselves (and/or what the author is communicating to the audience through the way it is written) "omg they're so sexy, so handsome, so bold, they really must care about me when they demand i cut contact with all my friends, they raped me because they love me, this is what good partners do"

Representing and acknowledging an issue is a productive action that can add depth to a story and have an educational purpose.
Romanticizing it is destructive and promotes an abusive culture that can genuinely end up causing people harm.