Who tends to have more agency in your romances ML or FL? (+excerpts/samples (but sfw))

[Leyelle]

Should the female lead have more agency than the male lead to avoid any perception of her being intimidated into the romance?

I definitely think it's important to balance the agency between the characters so that no character is forcing their romantic partner through the relationship, be that to start dating, first kiss, or anything else.

With my novel "Damsel in the Red Dress" though Alicia initiates the important conversation that starts their relationship and asks Kattar out on their first date, the agency is basically even between the two of them.

On the other hand in "Hushabye Prince" 98% of the agency is on Kimberly's part, which may or may not be a good thing in the long run. Jinwoo is very quiet, so if he didn't have such a strong will and sense of what he does or doesn't like, it could easily run the risk of just flipping the pushy role from the ML to the FL.

What's it like in your romances?

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“Um…” I say a tad slowly, fighting the embarrassment tying my tongue into knots, “Do you think, maybe, we’d be able to get dinner together sometime before then, just the two of us?”

“Oh.” His lips part - eyes getting a little rounder than usual. “Oh, y-yeah. I think so. I’m supposed to be released Wednesday, and Utkaresh is gonna drive me home. It’ll be so nice to be in my own clothes again.” He adds with a cross between a laugh and a sigh.

Read Damsel in the Red Dress :: A Spoonful of Sugar | Tapas Novels

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Kattar shakes his head at the blankets, trying desperately to explain - to defend himself - as he falls to pieces, “Don’t get me wrong, Lise, I love my mom. But she’s always been all about how much guys are a waste of time. “They drain you dry.” “They hold you back” “They get in your way.” I didn’t want to hear you say you didn’t need me. I thought I’d prove myself useful - worth your time, and then someday, maybe I’d have the daring…to...”

“You? Lacking daring?” the words slip out before I can stop them, “Mr. extreme sports, bicycle motor-cross, professional stunt driver-”

He looks at me miserably, his lashes lowering until his eyes are nothing but a line of shadow.

“There’s a big difference between the guts it takes to do extreme sports and the ones it takes to tell your best friend that you want…want to…” he looks back at the blankets, “And how did you expect me to say anything now? Now that I’m good for nothing - being washed and tended to by caregivers like an infant! Living off my mom’s money! I’m supposed to pitch myself like that?! Well then ‘Hi! I’m useless! Do you want me?!’”

His eyes are locked on me now, burning with years of frustration and anger tied ‘round with a silent plea. Is that what I looked like when Mrs. Moon asked him to tell me I was beautiful?

I meet all of the rancor and pain in the eyes with my own and don’t flinch.

“Yes.”

Read Damsel in the Red Dress :: Dorado | Tapas Novels

[cherrystark]

Should the female lead have more agency to avoid any perception of her being intimidated into the romance?

Yes. Women should. While both parties in romances tend to be written pretty flat, the male leads usually get more autonomy. You see this in YA or college age romances where the ML inserts himself into the female lead's life and she just has to deal with it. He could literally be stalking her and the FL just has to deal with it because the ML is "cute". (There are literal romance novels where the FL is a victim of a crime at the hands of the ML and they're meant to be endgame.)

Often in stories, he is her source of protection. The ML will keep vital bits of information away from her to "protect" her. He gets to decide how serious their relationship is. He "may" get consent to kiss her, but often he just "decides" to kiss her. It's also not uncommon in romance novels for the ML to manipulate the FL in s*x, but it's always framed as "empowerment". If the story is a love triangle, the second ML usually claims the right to make decisions for her because he's "protecting" her. If she doesn't, he has the power to destroy her reputation. Her villains are either a mean girl romantic rival or an abusive ex, so still - a man gets more agency in her story. Even in fated mate stories, the FL has zero say in what happens in her story. If her mate loves her, he takes complete control over her life. If he doesn't love her, she's destitute and can only "heal" if another man chooses her.

I honestly think that readers in general would have a better taste in their mouths for romance if all the characters were written to be "people" instead of stereotypes. A lot of the things I described above are SUPER common in MF romances. The FL just has to take whatever is thrown at her, while the ML gets a more active role in the plot. If both leads are written as people with full autonomy, the romances are typically better.

[Leyelle]

If both leads are written as people with full autonomy, the romances are typically better.

I agree with this.

Yes. Women should.

But are you saying that the female lead should have more agency than the male lead though, or that they should have equal agency?

[cherrystark]

I think they should have equal autonomy. That's why I say they should be written as people first and make decisions on what real people would do.

I noticed that in the VAST majority of romances, the female lead always takes a passive role in the story. There are a good number of romance novels where the FL is a literal victim of a crime, either by the hands of the ML or the people she was with prior to the relationship and she just "shakes it off" now that she's in love with him. There are books where the FL's ex or scorned second ML will literally destroy her reputation and leave her broken and destitute, all for the sake of a romantic plot.

While male leads can literally be man-hoe criminals actively destroying people's lives and be forgiven because he's hot and she's in love with him.

[Leyelle]

yeah, not the kind of thing I'm writing. I think the leads should have equal autonomy and decision making power in the relationship, but the amount of agency each lead has in my respective story depends on the characters themselves.

Alicia (Damsel in the Red Dress) is a very shy (technically she has social anxiety) female lead, but despite that, she is still making all the decisions in her own life. The male lead never forces her into anything, and because he's her best friend, she's actually not shy around him, and can 100% be herself, be that playful, flirtatious, angry, etc. They are pretty balanced. The idea of the story being called "Damsel in the Red Dress" is sort of play on ideas in the first place. Because it seems like it'll be a "damsel in distress x prince charming" plot, but half way through the female lead decides to anti-damsel, and though her bravery ebbs and flows from day to day like any real persons confidence does, she continues to advance forward.

On the other hand in "Hushabye Prince" while both leads have autonomy, the FL has most of the agency. This just spirals from the MLs way of operating in social settings which is basically to exist in the same world as other people and interact with no one. It really doesn't matter how beautiful he thinks she is (though tbf, if she hadn't addressed him he also never would have noticed her) he doesn't talk to strangers, so he wouldn't have started a conversation with her. The agency thus stems from her, and as he gets more comfortable around her, he gradually gains more and more agency.

[ShidoDraws]

Sadly it is quite common in the real world for a relationship to have a rocky start. It's rare to find couples who are love birds and don't force each other into commitments. And because this is so common a majority of people want to believe that this is normal, therefore romanticization of abuse especially when a reader's parents or people they know is likely to be in these situations. We want to believe this is normal... Sadly.

But hey, at least we can use these shitty writing tropes and make it a coping mechanism and reep the mistakes humanity had created for themselves. Then again, art is up for interpretation I guess.

[Leyelle]

unfortunately, it might not even be that people are trying to convince themselves it's normal, but that they really believe it. we all define normal as what we've seen most often, it's too easy for abuse and harm to be what we give the title of 'normal.' But we can also use our writing to reflect healthy positive relationships and give the world a better perspective on what romance, love, marriage, etc could be and look like.

We don't have to write characters that are 100% perfect angels, but we can write characters that love, or at least learn to love each other well.

[cherrystark]

Sadly it is quite common in the real world for a relationship to have a rocky start. It's rare to find couples who are love birds and don't force each other into commitments.

Yes, but most relationships don't start out as literal crimes... A IRL example of forcing a commitment is like baby trapping or even one person pretending to be the "saint" to manipulate the other into a deeper commitment. That stuff happens. And those relationships are usually caused because one or both parties made bad choices.

And because this is so common a majority of people want to believe that this is normal, therefore romanticization of abuse especially when a reader's parents or people they know is likely to be in these situations. We want to believe this is normal... Sadly.

See, I believe this caused more by the media than what people see mirrored by their parents. Movies, books, and TV normalize toxic behaviors and paint them as "normal" steps in relationships. People get taught those behaviors and then the next batch of writers put them back into the stories they'd write. It's a vicious cycle.

But hey, at least we can use these shitty writing tropes and make it a coping mechanism and reep the mistakes humanity had created for themselves.

Call me an optimistic but I think we can do a lot to fix the crappy tropes out there by simply not writing them or rather, we can fix them by becoming better writers so the next generation learns from our mistakes.

[BoomerZ]

This completely depends on the story you are telling. If the story calls for a passive male or female, they should be passive. It works the other way too. In my story, the female literally has ALL the power. Baul could put Gavin through a wall if she chose. But that is not what the power dynamic is. The point of the story is Gavin being in a relationship with a demon/supernatural creature, so there are no power struggles like that. Baul actively takes the part of the girl (which as a supernatural creature she only looks like a girl. "I don't have the parts" as she puts it.) and wants Gavin to be the man of the relationship. She supports him in any way she can. Gavin also wants this relationship to work, even as he gets deeper in the world of demons and angels.

[ShidoDraws]

You have some valid points. Though I do want to give my two cents on humanity's journey to piece and harmony. Trigger warning, rambling rant coming up.

I believe in making whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone with it. I think what really gets to people is trend or what people like to call, "done to death." I think a perfect example of a good trope would be isekai, people want to retreat from society and just hang out with friends regardless of it's online/on games. To add on to that, another good trope is the slave trope, it's making its way to the red carpet as we speak and coincidentally right now in the real world there are more slaves in the world than before. Just food for thought.

A lot of the times when I see people complain about stories being too mature for YA, typically they say, "people don't talk like this" or "nobody does this" or even "this shouldn't be in media." The whole idea of audience interpretation is the very thing writers fear, the writer wants to be heard or perhaps they just want to write a story and nothing more.

I don't like bringing up the phrase "freedom of speech" but honestly, it feels backward. For millennia our ancestors fought to be heard because rulers want to silence the truth and it feels a bit like that whenever people complain about every single romance story that's ever come out in the last decades. Are we trying to raise good minded people? Or dumb people? Regardless, we don't get to decide since the entertainment industry already decided it for the future generations to come.

And last but not least, Gordon Ramsay may be onto something, action speak louder than words. If people like it they will come, if people don't they'll silently leave and never come back. And I believe if people don't want to read toxic romance trope, they will just simply not read it. So I think we should let people create what they want, it is the only thing that keep people sane, honestly. Lmao

Sorry, I had to rant a little bit. I should probably write that up there somewhere.

[ShidoDraws]

Also, just because this reply isn't long enough, I wanna add that learning to write better means you have to make mistakes. Make the mistakes early so they can write better. You can't teach someone to appreciate something innovative if they don't have first hand experience.

[ShidoDraws]

Anyway, I have a romance story in the back burner where the FL and ML both move the story, it's just more like chess, to see who makes the final move. It might be a romcom/slice of life but since it's so early in the development stage it's hard to actually tell who moves the plot along. Ideally both but it could just end up being the FL since I know I want her to be independent, and right now it just feels like the ML only exist because it's a romance. Something will come up when I finally get to drafting that story.

That's all I'm gonna say...

Also, @Leyelle with all your threads, you made me realize I don't write much romance. And when I do write romance I always feel like it lacks that oomph. I aspire to write at least some decent romance. ;-;

[Leyelle]

To add on to that, another good trope is the slave trope, it's making its way to the red carpet as we speak and coincidentally right now in the real world there are more slaves in the world than before.

Um, what do you mean this is a good trope?

Also, @Leyelle with all your threads, you made me realize I don't write much romance. And when I do write romance I always feel like it lacks that oomph. I aspire to write at least some decent romance. ;-;

Some other people have said things like this too and it makes me wonder if I should make one of my writing courses on writing romances.

[beebutterbee]

I have two main characters BUT they’re not love interest, in fact I don’t think they’ve met yet but they’re never gonna be love interests. I’m basically showing two storylines that intersect occasionally.

But both have different love interests, Miss Butter with Alfred, and Lady Lock with Chariot (but those are both femme characters) and I like to think they all have the same amount of agency in their relationships. But also Miss Butter and Alfred aren’t the ideal couple, and I’m sort of making fun of stereotypical romances where with Lady Lock and Chariot, I take it more serious- or as serious as Butter Bee can get lol

[Leyelle]

so couples you write usually have the same amount of agency as eachother? I think most of mine have at least a little tip in one direction or the other

[beebutterbee]

Yeah I think they have the same amount? I don’t notice anyways if one is more than the other, but I think the couples both end up moving the plot equally by their own decisions, although it may influenced by their partner sometimes I think they’re all pretty independent characters actually.

I don’t write much passive characters, I will have one major one in my comic but he hasn’t shown up yet but he’s just a depressed businessman and i do not have any romance planned for him, but he does end up eventually doing things for himself. Back to the another post, I think he WILL have an anti damsel moment

[Leyelle]

While most of my leads have a fair amount of independence, at least from their significant other, I there's often still one member who makes more advancing decisions than the other does. Might just be how I play off the dynamics of different personalities. That said with Kattar and Alicia it's about equal

[beebutterbee]

That makes sense, I guess when starting relationships one person usually makes the first move too, but I guess I don’t consider that into the full scope of their character, because my plot isn’t revolving around romance. I think it might be a difference in genre then? So I have the characters moving other parts of the plot that don’t have to do with romantic themes.

[Leyelle]

Yeah, probably a genre thing, my two series are romances atm, so it's very central

[ShidoDraws]

Um, what do you mean this is a good trope?

I mean what I said, isekai is a good trope. People just think it's bad because terrible writers wrote it and got published by big publishing company. And it's not uncommon for a trope to become "bad" since publishers could easily hope on a train and rub it to the dirt and move on like it's nothing.