Writing (Art) Advise You've Learned the Hard Way

cherrystark 2023-04-29 23:56:49 UTC #1

For those who have been in the game awhile, what lessons have you learned the hard way?

For me:

No one cares as much about your story as you do. It's okay to be excited about your work and want to talk about it. However, you must be careful when and where you talk about it. I've learned from experience that it's hard to maintain friendships with other artists when you aren't familiar with each other's work. Especially when one person ONLY wants to talk about their work or makes references to their own work and refuses to read yours.
Know what type of fiction you are creating. When I first started getting into online fiction, I noticed that the crowning "achievement" of a writer was to write a novel. You got metaphorical "bonus" points for creating duologies and trilogies. The problem, I noticed, is in the execution. Writers will write a complete story arc and then start to feel the pressure to write more chapters. Those chapters then get turned into books with copy and pasted plots. It stresses me as a reader thinking about those stories and I can't imagine the stress the writers go through to keep up the momentum on their series for little to no paydays.

If you want to write a novel, go in knowing that you are writing a novel. You are under no obligation to craft multi-book series straight out the gate. If your idea has the potential to be stretched out into multiple story arcs, learn about serialized fiction. Web fiction like on Tapas is a valid type of fiction. You don't need to confine yourself to standard "book" protocol to be successful.

It's common in web fiction to label stories with tags like: OTP, AU, alpha, billionaire, fate mates, fake dating, etc. While these labels are common and popular in online fiction, if you are planning on selling your work to the general public - you may have to rethink how you label your work. The terms might be confusing to a casual reader. Marketing for general appeal can be helpful to bringing in a variety of readers.

Caveat: A lot of these are just opinions but I had to learn how to adapt to grow as a writer. Feel free to share your own "lessons" and advise.

river121693 2023-04-30 00:46:19 UTC #2

fo me, it's to never lore dump on your first 3 episodes (for comics). Doesn't matter how good your world is. Doesn't matter if its important to your story. Just dont do it, man!
Readers connect the most to your character and conflict arc. Sprinkle in some lore to get the story going, but nothing more.

Bella_Artz 2023-04-30 01:24:41 UTC #3

Keep your first chapters short, I guess.

I realized a lot of new writers tend to go overboard with the first chapter. Thinking they need to throw a lot of exciting stuff about their characters lives and or the world in. Trust me if a reader is reading and notices how far the scroll bar is from the end, you might lose them. A lot of people won't agree but appeal to the average attention span. I remember opening a story for a review swap once and it seemed to drone on. I copied and pasted just to see how many words for a first chapter and it was over 11k.

Long first chapters lose readers I guess.

DasIstWunderblyat 2023-04-30 01:35:39 UTC #4

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cherrystark 2023-04-30 01:35:40 UTC #5

11k? Wowza! But I definitely agree with you about keeping your first chapters shorter. I think it's really easy to want to dump all the lore at the beginning like @river121693 said because we writers get so excited about it. I don't think there is anything wrong about taking things slower and letting readers acclimatize to your world.

Katzalcoatl 2023-04-30 06:13:19 UTC #6

I learned by watching others or applying knowledge I previously had. I can't really say I learned the hard way. Nevertheless I shall share some lessons:

1.- You should always be your number 1 fan.
2.- Write about things you enjoy don't try to please others.
3.- Look at comments with a grain of salt (don't let your ego go up or be destroyed by others).
4.- Use statistics as a guide to get better but do not get obsessed with likes and views.
5.- Don't be afraid to scrap whole episodes.
6.- Ask people you trust for feedback.
7.- Do or do not there is no try (basically don't say you will try to do something instead just do it. For example don't say you will try to write more chapters instead just do it).
8.- Have a good buffer before you release your novels. That way you can go on vacations without the fear of not releasing a chapter.
9.- Look for your target audience. You can't simply publish something without taking into consideration the demographic in a webpage.
10.- Write short and concise chapters.
11.- Make your words eloquent but not too much. You want to entertain long time readers while still being aproachable by new readers who don't have an ample vocabulary.
12.- Let your reader imagine most of the details. Just give enough details for them to understand the situation. Imagination is a powerful tool.
13.- All writing rules can be broken but you should know their strengths and weaknesses to be able to break them without making a huge mistake.
14.- Any writing technique when abused can go wrong.
15.- Avoid huge dialogs. Add other things in between to make it easier on the reader.
16.- Edit and proofread every chapter you make.
17.- investigate before writing about any topic.
18.- Be ready to self promote. Writing your story is just the starting line.
19.- Don't assume your reader will know what you mean when you write something. The author has more details than their readers.
20.- Even if you love a character said character can be hated by your audience. Do not take it personal just continue to write the best way you can and learn from such a mistake for the next time you write a new story.
21.- Learn when to change tempos in the speed of your story (mainly for action novels).
22.- Don't add too many details. Sometimes less is more.
23.- Most importantly even if we do our best. We have to consider how a huge factor in success is luck. Do not get discouraged if you fall down at the start. One day you will get to the place you are aiming for. You just have to learn why you fell down and try to improve the next time you get up.

darthmongoose 2023-04-30 07:34:54 UTC #7

All right... Ready for some SPICY TAKES?

You can't make the audience change their opinions to liking what you want to make; you can only change what you make to suit the taste of the audience.

Getting angry at the audience won't help you. They're like... 20 year old lasses who just want something fun to read on their lunch break or between exam prep or whatever. It's not their fault you chose to make something designed with such an intention of showing off how clever and unique you are, it forgot to be enjoyable to read, or that's so focused on looking good on your platform of choice; PC browser, that it's illegible on their platform of choice; a phone.

If your comic is underperforming, it's much more helpful to blame yourself than Tapas or the audience. Assume it's your fault. Your decisions about genre, pacing, characters, presentation and marketing lead to this. You can either suck it up and be okay with being niche and perhaps suited better to other platforms, or you can shape what you create to suit the platform better. Make it easier to read on a phone, throw in some more relatable characters, focus more on emotional conflict and relationships, tweak the look of the cover etc.

Don't be goddamn Principle Skinner like "Am I out of touch? NO, it's the audience who are wrong!" The audience are NOT WRONG. You made something for yourself instead of making something for them, and unsurprisingly, they're not interested in your self-indulgent rambling nonsense about your OCs. Write them a freakin' story with characters they can feel invested in, dammit!

You're not that special.

Oh wow, you can draw and write really well? You were the best artist or writer in your school? You won a prize from the city museum or whatever or got a Blue Peter Badge or something? Okay cool, there's one of you in every damn school in the world. Yeah, you're more talented than an average person, but there's still millions of people just as good as you, and if they're focusing hard on presenting their work better, or appealing more to the audience, or keeping up with fashion better, they will overtake you very quickly.
You can't just sit back doing whatever you want and have everyone crowd round to see how amazingly talented you are like school, because out there in the world, you're a dime-a-dozen. You have to work to convince the audience you're worth their time.

Make your own luck.

Sometimes you'll miss out on an opportunity due to bad luck, and that sucks. But that's why you have to take control of everything you can control about how you're presenting your work, where you're putting it, where you're marketing it. That's why you should apply for as many opportunities as you can, because that puts probability in your favour. Don't apply for one thing, one time, fail to get it and be like "Oh well... there's nothing I could have done, guess I'll die." Screw that! Get some damn feedback, make some damn improvements and TRY AGAIN, dammit!

Lucky_Foot 2023-04-30 09:07:56 UTC #8

I can say I've learn quite a few things switching from Comics to Writing. To summarize, the most important thing I've learned is....

Outline, Outline, Outline! ( We're allowed to deviate from it [ Rule of Cool ] but afterwards, back to the Outline.

I spent 8-9 years on a comic series that didn't lead anywhere, I got decent at drawing but thinking back,it could have gone a lot better. ( I was a Panzer who learned by experimenting )

Nowadays, I try to at least do a few hours of research before jumping in to projects.

TheLemmaLlama 2023-04-30 09:43:19 UTC #9

I mean, it's not like people haven't tried teaching me stuff like 'you should work on a short story first' or 'you have to have a plan/outline/know where your story is going' the easy way - but like, it didn't really click until I tried going against that advice with my own two hands and actually seeing for myself why it's a thing So the real question is; what *haven't I learnt the hard way? XD (I do actually think there are a couple of things, but that's not the topic of this thread, so I'll leave it at that :'D)

I actually love comparing myself to others XD Finding the occasional comic that approaches a certain thing just like I do (or so it feels) gives me a heck of a rush

LostKelp 2023-05-01 10:29:23 UTC #10

Comedy is generally easier and more successful than drama, as much as it's fun to write bullet points on a Google doc where the MCs suffer, actually slogging through drawing and writing it is exhausting and with all the mature tags no-one will actually read it, while comedy is fun and will get you more engagement.

powerplantanimations 2023-05-01 16:11:05 UTC #11

Let's see though...
People Who've Never Written in Their Lives Can Still Know More About You
Take it from someone who learned how to write from an Austrlian who's never written in his entire life, yet taught me a bunch of cool tricks. People take criticism with a grain of salt because they're like "AH WELL THEY DON'T KNOW A THING! I, HOWEVER, HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS TEXTBOOK FROM THIS FAMOUS WRITER AND blah... blah... blah...".

You Should Keep EVERY comment in mind.... Even the Trollish mean ones
Not saying you should always LISTEN to them, but what I am saying is you should probably pull a No Man's Sky and keep a collection of all the mean comments just to see if there's some consistency. Grab some friends with thicker skin than you and ask if what they say is true. What may seem trollish to you may actually be useful.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO USE SWEAR WORDS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, KNOW HOW TO SWEAR
You can just tell that someone doesn't know how to swear through the placement of their words. If you want an example of how NOT to swear, please watch any episode of Hazben Hotel. If you want to know how to swear... well... look at it this way. In dire moments people tend to swear less unless they're like... REALLY pissed. That's all I know. The trick is to try to swear less as possible. Think of yourself like a dam... everyone has their limit and a couple of swear words will leak out naturally. It depends on what type of person you are.

If You're Going to Write Comedy, PLEASE for the Love of God, Learn the Concept of Sarcasm/Dry Humor...
I think this is self-explanatory.

You Never Want to Write for Yourself (At least, COMPLETLEY)
There's a thing people say where they're like "Write for yourself". Not many know how dangerous that statement is? It's too broad. People will take it the wrong way and literally do whatever they want. People who wind up being successful this way HAPPEN to get successful through dumb luck. The trick is, you write what you want but at the same time, you make DAMN SURE wherever the Hell you're posting on is going to love it too. At least, if you're going to make a career out of it. It makes no sense to be like "I don't care! The world will see!". Of course, there's the exception where someone literally IS doing it for themselves... but if they're expecting views out of it then I'm sorry, you're going to want to throw people a bone here.

NO HOMAGES
Season 1 (and I guess the very foundation of TSFI) is riddled with this. Biggest mistake ever, although I guess it falls under satire? Make your own thumbprint. It's okay to be inspired by something... just don't copy stuff shot for shot.

BE VERY PICKY WITH YOUTUBERS
Here's a trick, if they spend their time talking about nonesense like politics alongside their writing videos (right or left), then you STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THEM. If you're going to select a writing teacher, then they HAVE to see stuff like this as white noise. NO EXCEPTIONS. Straight up, this behavior is predatory. "Hey kids! Did you like my video about why this kid show lost its luster? You did?!? Well please watch my video on why the South shall rise again" or "why we should give Communism another shot c:". Writers are SUPER impressionable when starting off.... I'm pretty sure a lot of these "philosophers" or "skeptics" know this. They're the equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness or a Military Army Recruiter. Live your own life and come to your own conclusions when it comes to that stuff. Just focus on the writing. (Btw, I'm not mentioning their names... but I think you know the YouTubers I'm referencing lmao).

Other Stuff:
- Stuff like "TV Tropes" will only hold you back.
- You have a higher chance of being unique when you're doing trial and error.
- You don't need to learn writing terms, you don't need to learn about a three-act structure... you should be fine without them.
- Share lessons you learned from the real world.
- Awards are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You gotta remember who's GIVING you the reward before you go patting yourself on the back. I remember talking to someone defending a show saying "IT WON SO MANY EMMIES" and I'm like :T

IndomitableX 2023-05-01 16:58:18 UTC #12

Same with what you said in the first point.

NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR STORY. Just write it, mate!
A serious writer will invest on his/her cover.
Don't write two povs in the same chapter. Dedicate one pov to one chapter.
Show don't tell. Learn how to avoid using too much pronouns in a paragraph.
Leane how to show more and tell less.

cherrystark 2023-05-01 17:33:20 UTC #13

I've come to the opinion that if your story needs more than one POV, write it in third person. Especially if you are going to shift between POV all the time. I would also add that readers aren't stupid. I hate stories where the POV is labeled at the top of the section. If you do your job right, readers will KNOW who is the focus of the chapter.

This. I have noticed in the indie publishing world that a lot of writers like to brag about being "USA Today Bestsellers". I did some digging and it's not really an "award" as a way of saying you sold X number of books.

I take their opinions with a grain of salt. Some are fun to watch, but others are... problematic? I've gotten more insight on things like trope trends. But have had to pull away from some when they spend more time on their politics than giving an unbiased review of a book.

And how to write sarcastic dialogue - learn when and where to use it. Ryan Reynolds is funny because of his delivery. He can tear someone apart while still sounding sincere and genuine. A lot of sarcasm is written to sound mean.

moontokkym 2023-05-01 17:41:37 UTC #14

Rest is just as important as work. The competition of people bragging that "I didn't sleep last night to finish drawing" or the mentality that the more you draw the more you improve therefore you should feel guilty for not spending every waking moment grinding for success... it's meaningless drivel propagated by people on a crash course to burnout.

Success in this field does require hard work, does require discipline, does require sacrifice, but should never come at the cost of your mental or physical health, ever. Drawing as a habit and trying to improve is good, but you have to know yourself, know your healthy limits and recognise when pushing past them is going to cause harm and slow your progress overall.

Learnt that the hard way in artschool, now have chronic RSI because I ignored it for so long and drew through the pain because I believed that if I took a break I would fall behind. Be kind to yourselves.

HGohwell 2023-05-01 18:02:14 UTC #15

So, I think on this in particular, TV Tropes itself is not the problem, people using it wrong is the problem. So, it's more, know how to use TV Tropes as a reference, not as a crutch or template. TV Tropes says here are several pieces of media that use Zombies, here's how they do it, the differences and similarities and how they work or don't. Two Professional Writers do a really good job talking over a post that breaks it down way better than I could around the 1 hour mark of this video but essentially, TV Tropes will hold you back about as much as a thesaurus will hold you back: use it right and it can really bolster your writing, use it wrong and it's a mess.

And I think to go with this: "I don't use tropes" is bs and I'm sick of seeing it. It's the writing version of "I'm not like other girls". No matter how you try to avoid them, you will be using tropes somewhere somehow. To say you don't use tropes is like saying you don't tell stories. Unless you're doing some wild, surreal, unreadable masterpiece beyond human understanding, there's a trope. Because tropes are just story conventions and mechanics. Flashback? Trope. Hero with a sword? Trope. Ending? Trope. Trying to fight tropes is pointless, and honestly just makes writers look kind of pretentious. Just write the story and stop worrying about whether the elements are on some website, the same way you wouldn't worry if the words you were using are in the dictionary.

cherrystark 2023-05-01 18:34:49 UTC #16

I think this is so important. I personally love fairytales and fairytale reimaginings/retellings. But I noticed that the stories I tended to gravitate to were stories that focuses on themes of love, forgiveness, and personal growth than stories that are using the fairytale as a template.

Katzalcoatl 2023-05-01 19:06:05 UTC #17

Adding to this. It has been proven by studies that you should limit your work hours to any activity and have lots of rest in order to be more efficient. Meaning people with such mentalities are not only hurting their mental and physical health but also their progress. Sadly many still beleive the more you work the better you become without considering the importance of rest.

Many awards are actually fake. Like the Oscars. That's why you should take them with a grain of salt. They still help in reputation... but yeah people who deserve the reward aren't the ones who win it. The one who wins the reward usually has to do lots of favors for the people who vote for the reward.

You would be surprised.... There's a reason why shampoo have instructions on the back of the bottle.

You should probably avoid videogames especially visual novels.
They add names of the character talking at the top every time. 🤣🤣 (small sarcastic joke couldn't resist. Disclaimer: this is not intended to be taken as a serious comment.)

cherrystark 2023-05-01 19:50:01 UTC #18

I know what you mean but a script is different than constantly changing first person POV.

powerplantanimations 2023-05-01 20:05:32 UTC #19

@cherrystark Yeh exactly. The ONLY thing you benefit from this is getting extra sales and attention to your comic. Which I should stress... IS a good thing. My problem stems from the fact that these writers shouldn't be looking at these awards like it's everything. Aside from that, a lot of media recently has been winning awards when they don't deserve it. Rotten Tomatoes hands out 90's like nothing nowadays. The world would be such a nice place if writers realize that just because their story is critically acclaimed, doesn't mean your story is safe from retrospectives. Anyone here remember Boyhood?

It's very hard to find writers who don't just... vent. I remember watching this Birds of Prey review and this guy ranted about the "Vote for Bernie" joke and talks about how in the elections, kids won't take Bernie seriously therefore he might lose... so he recommends young writers not to do this. FIRST OFF... WHA -- ?

Also with the sarcasm, I think this is very tricky. I recommend learning from people outside your comfort zone.

@HGohwell Ohhhh... these guys... nah, I'm good. But, you nailed it on the head with the "I'm not like any other girls" statement. Like it or not, it's in or DNA. Even the Bible is chock-full of them.

@Katzalcoatl I will say it does annoy me because it could inflate egos. The Animation Category only matters because Disney needs it for their sales and it's funny seeing them get salty. I remember they cut-off the speech with Spider-Verse and made a jab at THEIR OWN MOVIE Brave (although I'm not sure if that one won an Oscar?).

cherrystark 2023-05-01 20:53:28 UTC #20

I think you put into words why I feel the way I do about how a lot of stories are labeled. For example, I understand the need for genre labels. I understand the need for trigger warnings. But it seems like a lot of stories try to aim to be trope lists and trigger warnings when writing a story than an actual plot if that makes sense.

I don't like gratuitous acts of violence, sex, and gore in the media I consume, so I don't write it. But that being said, my work does cover some serious topics. I'm trying to be extra or vent about any particular issue. I'm just trying to tell a story.