A ramble about psychological horror

[smokesalty]

Ngl I'm sick of people acting like making/ enjoying psychological horror makes you a bad person. The amount of times I've seen people try to shame others for enjoying that kind of media is just UGHHH. (I'm gonna ramble for a hot second)

While yes, there are absolutely psychological horrors which misrepresent things (mental illness especially comes to mind,) I think it's really about how the topics in the story are addressed. If a [insert bad thing] is shown within a work- it doesn't automatically mean the work is endorsing it. A lot of the times it's an exploration, which is why I love the genre so much.

I guess I'm just annoyed that people tend to act so high and mighty for consuming more "wholesome" content. I find genres like psychological horror to be so incredibly powerful for addressing darker topics in a nuanced and interesting way. A work doesn't always have to spell out "this thing is bad" for the audience to know! There's a difference between say, showing a character stabbing someone and exploring their psychology and their own justifications vs actually endorsing murder.

I just wish people would actually take the time to interpret these kind of works. I swear, some people take things just at face value. Not saying you can't critique psychological horror- you absolutely can just like every other genre, but a lot of people seem to jump to judging works at face value.

This doesn't just go for psychologcial horror, it seems works that address any sort of darker topics tend to be placed below more wholesome works (the whole comparing heartstopper to other queer media also comes to mind in this case)

[Bearkorps]

Imma rant with you @smokesalty for a bit.
I have a couple interesting stories to add since my writing tends to lean towards the darker side.
My mother comes from a lower class Korean family, and while you may have heard about the Korean superstition that writing a person's name in red ink is considered wishing them death, supposedly there is a belief that you want what you write to come true. For example, I GM for a homebrew Call of Cthulhu group, and for one of my scenarios, I had the group explore a house haunted by it's guilt about it's failure to protect it's inhabitants from a home invasion. I used my parents house as an inspiration for the house layout in the game (partially due to stories of squatters having scared off potential buyers in the past) because I liked the layout and surrounding area. Note: I did not borrow my family's likeness in any way, just the house and grounds. My mom got wind of this - presumably by my older brother who I had been bouncing ideas off - and she was livid, claiming I was dishonoring my family and wishing death upon them somehow. She generally wasn't find of us reading horror type books which was a shame since growing up I loved Kafka and Dostoevsky. And yea, she isn't very supportive of my writing and says my little brother is the writer of the family since his stuff fits her sensibilities more. Just interesting how culture can influence these things.

The second story comes from my experience with my lab group. One thing I do appreciate about my advisor is that she does try to get interested in our hobbies. Now there happen to be two people who are 'writers' in the lab: myself and our lab technician. I'm pretty good friends with the lab tech but we're pretty different on the genre side of things. He's writing a power-fantasy high fantasy series, and I write more well horror oriented shorts. My advisor has done quite a bit to support the technician's writing ( getting him writing books, letting him bounce ideas of her). My non-academic writing has come up once - to my knowledge - which immediately ended up with my advisor getting visibly distressed at my choice of genre (she had a hard time understanding why I don't like happy endings) and implying perhaps I should get counseling. I haven't bought the subject up since.

[TroyVSTheWorld]

No, I prefer art to not push boundaries, I prefer art to not cause introspection, I prefer art to bring an ease of comfort knowing that we live in a wonderful and caring and loving world. Art shouldn't revolutionize, art should be contemporary. Art shouldn't intimidate me!

(I'm joking, of course, but I feel uncomfortable not leaving this disclaimer here)

[smokesalty]

It's interesting how culture can come into play with how genres like horror are viewed, thanks for sharing!

There seems to be this weird misconception that people who like writing darker content are disturbed or in need of mental help. I know I don't bring up my writing to my family since they're hella Christian and seem to think that anything scary is demonic

How I view it is that while some people feel satisfaction from writing happy, light-hearted stories that show how great the world is or can be, I find it satisfying to be able to address darker parts of life and express them in a way where I feel listened to, and hopefully it resonates with audiences as well. Just as happiness can be a strong emotion, fear can be too! I find myself gravitating to darker works because I find them so impactful and thought provoking a lot of the time.

[Lady_T_Musings]

PUH-Reeaccchhh!

I wanna rant some too!

I am a huge fan of how different genres can explore all the things that can come up in the human psyche. From sunshine and rainbows to depression and horrific events.

Even in the most idyllic of worlds danger would still exist, existential crises would be a thing, and so would nightmares. Being able to tell stories about such things has many benefits even if it's just for entertainment, that's totally valid. Creative works resonate differently with those who make them to all who engage in them and that's part of the experience.

As writers and artists, we have the ability to take the wild thoughts our minds come up with and make them tangible through what we create. Happy, sad, bright, shady, whatever... we take the intangibilities... feelings, pictures in our heads, of our thoughts, ideas, dreams, curiosities, and wonders and create fiction on canvas, pages, websites, etc. and it's truly a wonderful thing.

Thinking of nightmare scenarios and then illustrating or writing them doesn't mean we want them to happen to anyone, We're just exploring and sharing what we've come across in our minds and environment through our stories and art like many amazing artists and storytellers have done before us and will continue to do after us.

I know folks are scared of being canceled, so folks want to be on the highest moral ground possible so fingers aren't pointed at them, but it all feels so arbitrary when you read a story or ingest some art of the not-so-sunshine and happy and automatically come to the off based conclusions that whoever created it is awful and so I must tell everyone else that this person I do not on even know, just ingested there art/story and it made me feel some kind of way, is morally corrupt for even daring to make such an egregious thing and it's my job to call them.

Like ohh they like stories about death and despair so they condone murder, like what!? Oh, they write abusive characters so they must be abusers...LIKE WHAT?! This also extends to people who enjoy these stories and art being called terrible people who need therapy bc they enjoy exploring the not so sunshine side of life through fiction. It's baffling to me really.

All of this to say psychological horror is just an exploration of another facet of humanity. All genres are an exploration of the shades of humanity to some degree since we make it, whether fantastical or historical inspired and it's wild to see folks literally condemning folks for exploring this through creating fiction :V .

Some folks just have an arrow to shoot and the easiest targets are the ones that make themselves visible so that's folks sharing what they make to the world.

I get so exasperated and angry every time I see a post or video about a creator who is being harassed over a story they told or some art they drew to the point they just stop for fear of being attacked over it or feel they have to make apology or clarification posts to explain that their work doesn't represent who they are as a person and what they condone.

Ok I need to stop bc this is hella long, but I have a lot of thoughts and experience with this and it's frustrating a-f that folks who engage with art and fiction can't separate the creative work from the creator and take it for what it is as entertainment. DX

[Bearkorps]

PUH-Reeaccchhh!

May I offer you an "Amen!" in these trying times?

[fsarbolaez]

Dare I say, it sometimes comes off like the person who judges the artist/writer tells more about themselves than anything about who they point the finger at. Like the strong disgust they express towards their target springs from their own dark feelings deep down, because what they saw was but a mirror

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Oddly enough, I've never seen this kind of criticism in the wild; I've only heard about it secondhand from people who've had to deal with it. And to be honest, I don't get it, especially since horror movies (and now "true-crime" documentaries) are so popular. Why the stigma towards people who write the content, but not towards the content itself??

I feel like maybe it's like meat-- everyone likes to eat it, but no one wants to hear about how it's produced or where it comes from. I guess the general consensus is that "creepy" stories are made by little fairies in the woods, and not by actual people who take the time to think about these things and how to express them creatively...? o_O

Mmm anyway...personally, I haven't dealt with this much. Although I'm not really a horror writer, I'm known for my love of tragedy; and I often write stories where it's unclear if the 'evil' can ever really be defeated.

I've gotten plenty of jokey comments about 'tormenting' characters (which I enjoy~) but nothing really critical of my apparent sadism. No one has ever seriously asked me to stop writing about bad people and bad things...maybe if I talked about my work IRL, that would change. ^^; But so far I've been met with nothing but support.

[GumshoeComix]

If a [insert bad thing] is shown within a work- it doesn't automatically mean the work is endorsing it.

how much feel this!!!
my work is about csa and its after-effects in adulthood, I worry so SO god damn much that someone is going to think I'm endorsing it just for fricking mentioning it. Especially since its so personal to me, so being accused of something I'm trying to condemn would probably break me.
but I'm so thankful people have understood where I'm coming from with my story so far, I love my readers ;w;

[joannekwan]

Same rant can be applied to mature works dealing with sex, especially when they're written for kink.
I'm always sure to put a disclaimer ahead of my explicit novels. And though I'm never glorifying the more questionable deeds, I can't help but be paranoid and try to cover my ass haha.

[Lady_T_Musings]

This is a whole nother thread right here

[ScaryTerry]

Short and sweet..psychological horror is the best kind of horror!

[TheLemmaLlama]

I kind of agree with DokiDokiTsuna here in that I don't remember seeing 'in the wild' much of this criticism directed at murderer/cultist/hopeless downer ending type horror ... but I have seen plenty of first hand condemnation of people who write very dark stuff that's more 'personal', so to speak - stuff like CSA, relationship abuse and more visceral depictions of self harm and mental illness. I'm talking literal death threats and suicide baiting.

This has a spillover effect to people with intrusive thoughts as well; it's just harmful all around. I think all content should be allowed to exist, even if some of it should be buried under a mountain of content warnings. As long as the creator never actually went out and harmed anyone, they should not be comdemned.

(EDIT: Though I must say I don't really like the 'it says more about themselves than the people they're condemning' argument. People who actually do condone terrible things use this to gaslight their critics. I remember seeing a video about a guro artist who did this; nothing against guro, it's just according to the video this particular creator directly condoned CSA at some point. And as horrible as death threats and suicide baiting are, I do think it comes from a place of genuine distress)

[NickRowler]

I am going to say that as someone who tend to not like horror, especially body horror. It generally just bums me out and I end up just feeling sad and sometimes relapse into suicidal thoughts. I feel generally people are less shaming horror and sometimes embracing it in unhealthy ways. I feel like my reaction to horror is not very common.

I think of the popularity of Law & Order SVU and True Crime podcast, I think people sometimes get way too into those types of stories and forget (especially for true crime) that those are real people or with SVU based off of actual news stories. I have also ran into people who had a favorite serial killer, and I was like YIKES. I think some of the criticism of the media is characters who are suppose to be problematic being embrace or idealized by fans. I feel like Joker is a good example of this.

This doesn't mean I want everything to be G rated, I am just mostly sick of sort of shaming people like me who would rather watch things that are not as violent. People have told me that I am way too wholesome despite me liking some dark humor.

the whole comparing heartstopper to other queer media also comes to mind in this case

I personally found Heartstopper underwhelming mostly because there was no deep conflict and every problem got solved 10 minutes later. I think this show is suppose to be for kids, as in preteen to younger teens, which is why it never gets too intense, edgy, or rude.

[Bearkorps]

I completely understand your reaction @NickRowler, the lab technician in my lab is pretty close and says that's why they can't do general horror/apocalyptic type stories. Despite both of us ironically not favoring the other's genre of choice, we still have a mutual respect for each other's writing and support each other so I do appreciate the critique that both sides can go too far.
There is definitely a group of people who unhealthily obsess over these things and on the flip side overtly shame people for shying away from the material without considering the context of their choices (going off your observation on Joker a trend that's worried me is a weird idolization of abusive relationships using old Joker and Harley Quinn as an inspiration particularly girls who dream of a Mr. J).
I think a part of it is considering the context of the horror elements, because I would be remiss not to admit that careless portrayal can do harm. A study found that there was a significant increase in suicides after the airing of 13 reasons why (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2019/release-of-13-reasons-why-associated-with-increase-in-youth-suicide-rates) while the study doesn't try to stipulate a causal link there has been criticism that the sloppy portrayal of suicide framed as a revenge fantasy on the show gave incorrect context and gravity to the topic particularly to it's younger audience.

[NickRowler]

Despite both of us ironically not favoring the other's genre of choice, we still have a mutual respect for each other's writing and support each other so I do appreciate the critique that both sides can go too far.

Yeah, if people want to write, watch, or read horror, I am not going to stop them.

I mostly want less creepy True Crime fans and I want people to be respectful to those who might not want to watch violent horror due to mental health issues.

[ShidoDraws]

This actually made me re-realized how much I hate tsunderes in anime/manga. I hate it not because it is lazy character writing but because it actually promotes abusers. Having characters indulge in this activity and loving it because oh boy, it's a cute anime girl so it's okay. And I say this with first hand experience with a "tsundere" if you will, they ended up being a stalker and it still scares me till this day even years after breaking communication with them.

Psychological horror is a different story since it is usually actually bad things and isn't promoted as okay relationships. So yeah, knowing something is horror is better than not knowing it is horror. The genres already speaks for itself when it comes to horror.

Edit: I realized I sounded like a hypocrite. So to clear it up I don't think tsunderes should go away, I think writers should learn from those stories and their personal experiences and make an effort to having a more persuasive way to tell the audience that that is bad in a relationship. Which is why I love Shakugan No Shana so much, the female main character is a tsundere but she developed in the much human way possible. I love her more than I love my soul, yes I sold my soul to the creator of that story.

Anyway, yeah.

[smokesalty]

but I have seen plenty of first hand condemnation of people who write very dark stuff that's more 'personal', so to speak - stuff like CSA, relationship abuse and more visceral depictions of self harm and mental illness. I'm talking literal death threats and suicide baiting.

Yup! That's mainly the kind of stuff I see condemned too. I do think these kinds of topics absolutely need trigger warnings in order to keep people safe and aware of the content being discussed. However, just because some people cannot bring themselves to read it, doesn't mean it doesn't need to exist.

I feel like you can usually tell whether a writer is talking about a subject to bring it to light vs actually endorsing it. At the end of the day, it really is how the work portrays said topic.

[TheLemmaLlama]

you can usually tell whether a writer is talking about a subject to bring it to light vs actually endorsing it.

Apparently not for some people

I think it's because you can condemn morally depraved behaviour while also showing it in a very visceral manner, which can come across as being 'indulgent', 'fetishizing', 'exploitative' etc. And the logic is (and this is pretty uncomfortable to think about but I think it needs to be acknowledged) that no-one portrays this stuff in such graphic detail unless they ... get a rush from seeing it. Which one can absolutely do so while wanting it to absolutely never happen in real life (just ask BDSM people), and is often just a catharsis thing anyway. But thought-action fusion is a common cognitive bias, and that's how people get from that to condemnation.

Portraying something graphically isn't endorsing it. Actually endorsing something is like what ShidoDraws said about tsunderes; the abusive behavior is shown but is portrayed as cute/harmless/romantic and no-one ever brings it up as something to be concerned about. A less graphic piece of media showing 'mild' abuse is very much capable of endorsing more terrible things than the darkest of grimdark stories.

[smokesalty]

I agree!

A less graphic piece of media showing 'mild' abuse is very much capable of endorsing more terrible things than the darkest of grimdark stories.

And I think this is really interesting! I think this often tends to be the case with the romance genre which romanticises a specific relationships/ actions. When people go to read something like that, a lot of the behaviours are made to be something to look up to so when something harmful is slid in what is supposed to be viewed as "good," then there's an issue.