A weird thing I noticed in fandoms? Thoughts?

[akitsukino]

It could be because I’ve been in quarantine that I’ve been going down the rabbit hole of Internet drama (and because internet drama is inherently addictive), but I’ve noticed something.

A lot of fans seem to agree that fictional media can be transformative. You hear all these stories about how this show helped someone come out, how this show helped someone through depression, or how this show helped someone work through their trauma. People will go up and down about how this piece of fiction changed their lives.

Except for when it’s about s*x stuff.

This seems to be when people break down. People will argue for hours in 100 reply chain forums over plot points and who the best character is, but when it comes to criticizing things like “controversial” ships or s*xy character designs, people will immediately respond with a “it’s just a cartoon.”

The craziest thing I feel like I’ve seen is when I see media YouTubers this. Some of these people movie reviewers have been doing this for over a decade. They’ve built whole livelihoods on the idea that media is something worth analyzing and discussing (or at least making hundreds of videos about), but will backpedal to “it’s just a cartoon/movie/video game” when it comes out on Twitter that they have a weird fetish or something.

The cynic in me says that at least some of these people might agree with the criticism so they backpedal to cover their butts. The other part of me says that these topics are uncomfortable so it makes since that a lot of people tell them selves that “x bad thing is not really that bad” so they don’t have to think to hard or feel bad about something they like.

So what do some of your think?

[Wocalich]

This is an interesting topic. I think you're pretty spot on with this part:

The other part of me says that these topics are uncomfortable so it makes since that a lot of people tell them selves that “x bad thing is not really that bad” so they don’t have to think to hard or feel bad about something they like.

[nostalgicroxas]

Oh man should you google up the debates about Gadget (Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers), Esmerelda (Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame) and Princess Selenia (Arthur and the Invisibles) about "too sexy for a children's show?!"
Namely that all these arguments call out females as being too sexy, but never call out boys for being too sexy. The road only goes one-way on the internet. These debates also usually encompass things like "this game has it's first female lead and it's too sexy!!!" -> Lightning from FF13 or Velvet from Tales of Berseria -> "what has feminism come to!?" "she can be sexy and still kick ass!!" And many... many.... many more similar arguments.

Strictly speaking, while both Lightning and Velvet have cool designs, there is no denying the amount of "sex" appeal both have - especially in regards to legs (a current fad with Japanese fans as a whole for the last eh, 15 years?)

((Velvet by comparison actually has a plot reason for why she's in tatters: 1 she was in a jail for like five years and 2 she doesn't care what she looks like, or that her hair's a total trash dump of a braid)

Interestingly, note how both characters look from behind. Skinny legs with a cloak to cover up most of that sex appeal, which is then showcased in cutscenes and battles. Lightning also has the odd design feature that she wears black shorts under her skirt, something much of the art online leaves off for some reason, but they're longer than her skirt so I don't know why?)

[kmlangleyauthor]

My take is this. People don’t like sticking their necks out if it’s going to potentially hurt them. Most people only like to be “different” if it’s safe. So even in the “controversial opinion” camps, there’s usually 2 or 3 camps that people cluster into and then they have safety in numbers. Most people can rationalize anything if they have enough people backing them. But the second it gets to a sensitive enough topic that others aren’t going to risk their status, they’ll write it off as “just this” or “just that” and pretend it never happened.
I remember when “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo” came out - similar timeframe as the first GoT season - (I wasn’t into either of them) and my coworkers got into heated debates about what crossed the line in reference to showing sexual assault and r*pe onscreen. Half of them thought it was fine for “creative license” and the other half thought it was a slippery slope of media numbing and grooming, essentially. But both sides felt justified because they had groups that agreed with them.

[joannekwan]

but when it comes to criticizing things like “controversial” ships

I think you hit it right here. The simple fact that things CAN be controversial is why lots of people have to backpedal to say "it's all just fiction".

Take any "problematic" scenario from romance: age gaps, power disparity, dubcon, coercion, rape. Healthy adults can enjoy any of that in the fiction they consume. They know it's bad in real life (some situations more than others of course), but because it's a fiction, it can be a safe space to explore the 'what if' possibilities that human minds are curious to wonder about.

Unfortunately, people are quick to cast judgment upon others. So if one even mentions they like dubcon stories, there will be people that think "Oh, they like reading about that awful stuff? That must mean they support it in real life! >:0 Bring out your pitchforks!!!"

[lilithfairenwrites]

Yes, I see zero difference between a character whose outfit is obvious fetish-bait and a character who actually wears clothes.

[GesuGesu]

My think is to enjoy series without joining the fandom too much. Enjoy what the original series has to offer any maybe some fanarts, fanfiction, etc. but you don't necessarily have to join in on the fandom discourse.

I currently do that and although I don't really have friends to talk to about certain series, it also keeps the bad 1% away from policing what I like.

In terms of fiction being transformative, I don't really think it breaches on real life that much unless the person is a little kookers in the first place. We can enjoy stories about murder, betrayal, war, and many bad things as responsible people most of the time without letting it influence us to the point of trying to overthrow our local government by cursing them to death via the blood of virgins.

[gempompadour]

I agree that male characters have a lot of leeway when it comes to sexiness, just like in real life. But your argument about Velvet is a bit iffy to me. Fictional characters don't choose what they wear. Their creators do. Do the men in Velvet's universe also dress in micro shorts and revealing tops? Because if not it's Quiet from MGS all over again. In game lore she wears a bikini to a combat zone because she breathes through her skin. Okay. Later an ugly old guy with the same skin condition walks in with full tactical gear on and I'm just... sigh just say the reason Quiet is almost naked is so that men can ogle her as she crawls through the mud.

Women can't really win either way. I have a problem with the objectification of women, and hate how female sexuality and looks are handled in the media. But being sexual and vivacious is a legitimate character trait, women should able to be sexy, lesbians exist and even fictional characters should be able to dress in a way that fits their character. There really is no answer, just gotta hope more female creators and voices rise to the mainstream. Anyway, I love Bayonetta in all her hackneyed sexy trashiness, so I'm a hypocrite, lol.

[Hazumirein]

Some people have already said it but I think there's a difference between being emotionally affected by a good story/character and not being able to differentiate reality and fiction. Sometimes the debate goes so far that people are saying like, if you enjoy a villain character that does bad things then you must be a terrible person who enjoys those things in real life, which doesn't tend to be the case for most people. It's kinda like the "violent video games cause real violence" argument; it's just not true for 99% of people because they're smart enough to understand that it's not real, but it certainly can be cathartic to beat up some monsters in a safe virtual environment. A lot of people use fiction as an outlet to cope with things they can't control IRL (I.e. there are days I would LOVE to punch that annoying coworker, but I recognize that that would be frowned upon so I'll have to settle for punching some enemies in a game or drawing my characters punching each other).

Ultimately I'm in camp "it's not real, calm down" and most of these debates just get an eyeroll from me. There's certainly room to argue about and point out problematic or misleading portrayals of various things in media, but it's not usually worth throwing a fit about or trying to cancel people because they like a ship that you don't.

[Kelheor]

But your argument about Velvet is a bit iffy to me.

Funniest part, the first thing Velvet is doing is finding new clothes. But why cover your boobs when you can fasten a belt on your leg

[nostalgicroxas]

Nope, Velvet is the only weirdo who dresses the way she does. It's actually a constant conversation in the story that pops up about if she wants to change her clothes, or if she's cold, or anything like that. Her reasoning is that she's largely unaware of how her body is or feels because she's so obsessed with revenge and murder, basically. Large in part, it makes some bit of sense- until the latter half

Summary

when she realizes she's been living for just revenge and starts to revert back to her kinder and caring side she had before being locked up in prison. With this change in character trait you would think she would adjust her outfit to some degree, but nope. She still doesn't care what she wears. ((It's actually used as a joke that pops up in a spin-off Tales of game, Crestoria, where this nice kind chivalrous MC meets Velvet and thinks that she needs protecting because her clothes are tattered and torn, like she's really down on her luck and sucks in fights. She turns it back on him (without him realizing it cause he's a dumb MC) that she doesn't need protecting just because her clothes look a certain way, and right away tells him not to talk to her like that (like she needs help[because of her clothing]. It's an interesting conversation that even the game writers are aware of.)

Her clothing is largely used to convey the majority of her character's feelings and emotions, but once that peak happens in the plot, it doesn't reconcile outwardly in her appearance. (Outside of optional outfits you can put the characters in, but by in-game lore, she doesn't change her clothes.)

Interestingly, we also use the amount of "cover up" in clothes to convey the imagery of a person's naivety- such as Yuna from FFX or Colette from Tales of Symphonia - both have lots of layers and clothes on them - arguably Yuna is the more "sexy" of the pair with her back bare and boobs hanging out of her top basically. There was one other girl I was thinking of that also has a sexy torn up outfit like Velvet's but I can't think who it was....
I am also reminded of Yoko (Gurren Lagann) as another example of sexiness, who in-universe argues she doesn't wear layers because it's "hard to move in them" to fire off a long gun at giant mechs. (Nevermind that when given the option to wear a coat and actual clothing as appropriate for her job later in the series, she does so without issue. But when "battle comes again" she immediately strips back to a bikini top basically.) It kind of suffers from that "Ash turned his hat backwards, shit just got real" trope.
Actually that makes me wonder if there's a female sexy trope like this in the anime Galaxy 999? From what I recall the main female character is pretty but she wears dresses all the time and is more... demure.

[gempompadour]

She sounds okay for a typical revenge obsessed character. I looked at some pictures and she gives a sort of angsty, melancholy, goth vibes. And I'm kind of glad that Velvet doesn't change her clothing to be more demure as she becomes kinder because that plays into the stereotype of female sexiness being dangerous/ bad. That to be good is to be covered up, and so on. If that is who she is then she shouldn't have to change.

And oh my god I had completely forgotten about Yoko, like, wasn't she 14 years old in the first half of the series? She was so sexualized it almost made me not want to watch the series. Everyone perving on her, accidentally touching her, her tits and ass comically shoved in my face whenever possible... I remember shipping her and Kamina though, but it's been years since I've seen the show so I might be mistaken.

[Kelheor]

Well, we actually don't know Yoko's age. I say she looks around 16-17, just as Kamina looks around 17-18 There's no reason to make her younger than that anyway.

[nostalgicroxas]

Indeed! I actually rather like Velvet's design overall. I just am sick of seeing the underboob thing, although I suppose I should be thankful that she has more human sized boobs. ((Take for example all of the girls from the Hyperdimension Neptunia and co series of games/anime/ect - pretty much all of them are balloon boobs or washboards with nothing in between.)) -> Which oddly brings up another stereotype from Japan - women and their obsession with each other and boob sizes. Gurren Lagaan does it, Tales of series does it off and on, the Phantasy Star Online 2 game series has an entire post-story scene dedicated to a trope scene about that boob sizes and groping. Tropes and fetishes are so weird when they invade the stereotype as the norm. Especially if you have no idea where they came from, or why.

I think Yoko's like 16? Her and Kamina are an OTP ship in the story though That's something that the company that made that anime does - if you've seen Burst Angel (a mech anime about lesbians basically) it has all of the same bouncy boobs as Yoko did, with more plot. Oddly enough the main character, Jo, while she wears a skimpy outfit for battles, she also wears oversized clothing often and, similar to Velvet, doesn't care how she looks or comes off to people.

All of this kind of reminds me how a woman can't be sexy and the heroine AND a mom or somehow seen as maternal. Yoko for example, when she's a teacher, dresses appropriate to her part. But when it's time for battle, skimpy clothes must happen. And there's a reason for it to a degree - can't run or kick efficiently in one of those mermaid A line dresses that end at your knees, but you can also just make an outfit fit the situation.

Take the movie BRAVE for example. That girl gets everything she wants, gets to be stubborn and free and not have to be changed by the story's narrative AT ALL - and her biggest fight with a trope is don't wear a dress you can't breathe in because you can't fire an arrow in it? She spends the entire movie in a medieval dress - likely a heavy material because it's based on Scotts and it's cold up there - and totally does fine being the hero. Merida I think is her name? She's probably the best recent example for a girl to be a hero and to break tropes about sexiness and being able to kick butt and take names - her dress is gorgeous. But it also is, medieval, and doesn't line up with modern sexiness ---> I point back to the long internet debates about characters like Princess Selenia who doesn't wear anything super sexy for the entire movie, except something that looks like yoga pants, but she was designed to have big hips and shoulders and a tiny waist. And that makes her "too sexy" - nevermind that her entire character is about being sassy and able to handle everything on her own.

[nostalgicroxas]

Take into mind one giant thing: Japanese laws about age of consent in regard to Yoko (or any other Japanese female lead.) They basically all have to pass the threshold for age, by law, to be allowed as a sex symbol. And in parts of Japan, iirc large parts of it, the age is 13.

[Kelheor]

Well yeah, but Yoko doesn't look or behave like a 14 y.o. (just as Kamina)
I'd say Nia and Simon are on this age level, a bit younger maybe.

[nostalgicroxas]

Completely agree. I totally think Nia and Shimon are younger and closer to the 14 year old mark (or younger). However, for Yoko to act older I think makes sense considering the plot of the story. She's been out and fighting and dealing with stresses (deaths) regularly compared to either Kamina or Shimon. Kamina does understand the concept of death, and Shimon probably even more than anyone, but because she's been out dealing with adults and the like, I question how fast she's had to mature. There is a difference between being 12, 14, and 16 and even 18 in Japanese anime type media, and generally most protags are on the youngest of the scale because they're the ones more likely to "adventure and find themselves". I wouldn't say I've seen mature 14 yr olds like Yoko irl, but I also wouldn't say I've seen mature 14 yr olds like Sailor Moon irl sooooooo. I wonder if there's a wiki or something that lists her actual age. Either or, Yoko is highly sexualized and on purpose.

[gempompadour]

@Kelheor Isn't Yoko canonically 14 though? It says on several wiki sites and I remember the director confirming it, which is why I was so repulsed by her character in the beginning. I think it's japanese thing though, making them young in age but physically a lot older when drawn. She's such a sweetheart, though.

@nostalgicroxas. I agree, she looks great and I really like women in leather/gothic apparel. Velvet with a vest would look so much cooler in my eyes, add in some more ripped leather pants and it would be chef's kiss perfection. Something like Dante's look from DMC2 on a woman:

Merida is such a great example because she gets to be feminine without being weak. I love the movie Brave, especially the beginning, but it lost its momentum halfway through. I always wondered why, until I happened to watch this vid. It's almost an hour long, but the creator explains it better than I ever could. He talks about Merida's character, femininity and women's stories in general. There's also some backstory on Pixar (and their all-male club) as well:

Lol, sorry it starts like 40 minutes in, because for some reason it won't load the video from the beginning.

[nostalgicroxas]

That reminds me that story about how Brave was a mother-daughter story with no Bear stuff involved really until it became an issue with the writers and supposedly they fired the actual woman who had been working on it as the mother-daughter story and tried to salvage it, which is why it's so painfully disjointed.
I've seen that video actually in my recommended tab before and haven't clicked it because it's... well it's so long lol I'll have to watch it sometime today

[gempompadour]

I highly recommend it because it talks about that exact thing! But watch it when you have the time and patience to do so. It's interesting and really well edited/ told but like I said almost an hour long