Artist attitude - pet peeves?

[LordVincent]

You could go the "patrons get everything early" route, but this just fills me with meh.

It doesn't fill the comic creators who make $5k+ a month on patreon using that method with meh, soooo your point is?

I'm not one of those creators btw, sadly enough. Yet, at least.

[joe_galindez]

If you're providing a service- whether it be previewing webcomic pages ahead of schedule or letting fans of your art view a stream of you working on said artwork, or view other projects that you are creating aside from your webcomic art, then it's not begging for money.

Maybe if those were the only things you did. But if the bulk of your work is available at no cost, and no one is obligated to pay, then it's not a straightforward trade. It's not an exchange between equals. The power balance is all wrong.

If you're going to go through the trouble and expense of marketing yourself, why not actually sell something? It could be a $2.99 ebook or advertising space. But let it be something.

It doesn't fill the comic creators who make $5k+ a month on patreon using that method with meh, soooo your point is?

I never said that begging can't be lucrative. Still, it isn't the most dignified way to make money. It isn't the most scalable either.

We're experiencing a buggy-whip kind of paradigm shift. The line between amateur and professional is hopelessly muddied. And free content is the future of most forms of entertainment. It's not the best bargaining position but we have to find other ways to make it work. There may be room for everyone, but meals are not included.

We could use Kickstarter-style crowdfunding more often. Let the public pay us and then we deliver the work. We could even do it swarm-style, and form temporary studios to produce bigger projects.

Or we could take more control over the ads we host. The problem with automated ads is that they can be automatically blocked. Embedding the ad in the video or webcomic would involve doing our own market research and writing our own ad copy, but adblockers would be useless against it. We could even do it Thunderclap-style, and release the same ad across many different sites at once.

[Navi.Hog]

I'd gladly operate on people's brains for free. But always include an interesting side effect for kicks. Like an occasional schizophrenia would really wake them up.

[rd_inks]

Something I'm seeing crop up a lot is the 'wannabe overnight success' artist. Now, I give huge props to all creators who have the courage to share their art with the world, but some are less...objective about it than others.

I recently saw someone whose anatomy/general art skills left a lot to be desired. They were clearly having a lot of fun getting their comic out there, but then I saw a link to a store page they had. They were selling prints for like $80 and bags for $35 etc with very poorly drawn characters on them, expecting to turn a quick buck.

Putting the merchandising/business side before understanding even the most basic of art fundamentals is a really egregious error and it makes them seem desperate to succeed without putting in the graft.

[Tanako]

My pet peeves are when people abuse the vertical way of making comics. when I first learned about the horizontal scrolling way of reading comics I thought it was cool. then when I actually tried it myself I realized that I didn't like it as much because the pages were longer and honestly it was too much for me to handle so I went back to my old manga style( whatever you call that style) anyway, over the time since that style have been out I've seen people abuse it. not trying to pick on anyone I promise this is just something I've noticed that bugs me, the images end up way too big, as in the image is too big you keep scrolling to see the whole thing like WTF? ok, I get if its a background with people in it but the one I saw was a face. the fact took up let's say, a full page and half of an 8.5 by 11 paper. I don't understand. I would want to put a sample but again like I said, I really done want to start anything. another issue is the font. the font is again, way too large to the point I can't even focus and read it because in my head I'm thinking, why TF is this so large? lol,

third is TOO MUCH SPACE as in, why is there that much space. people don't realize that space could indicate several things. as in, a "pause", "the next day", "a while" "several hours later" that sort of thing but they just abuse it. I can't even explain how they use it. its like there put too much gap between panels and it doesn't make sense.

[rd_inks]

I get what you mean - maybe they think it creates more suspense or something, but it can get annoying very quickly when moments which shouldn't be at all tense/drawn out, become so.

[ISNEKO]

I'm probably a creator that people don't like. I like to complain to no one in particular that the amount of work I've made for myself is more than I'd ever like.

shrug

Stuff like "why did I do this" and "fuck I have to write I guess" come out of my mouth a lot. If you knew me, you know that I'm generally happy and love writing but just am a natural Debbie Downer and moody asshole. Most of my subs get it and join in the dark edgey humor but one time someone called me out and expressed how self-pity people make them upset.

Too bad for them it makes me laugh when people are upset at me.

[Tanako]

yea you are right. i've seen artist use it in moderation. especially the scary ones i get it. but there are some where it's so overdone. who wants to be staring at their phone and continue scrolling through white pages? like tf lol it makes me lose patience. i get impatient and cant even enjoy the comic because of all the "very long" white page. but its whatever, to each his own. i just think if a lot of people are going to get into it, just study it, learn how effectively use the spaces not just dropping ransom spaces. my fav webtoon that utilize space effectively is "winter woods". luv it.

Winter Woods

[ReroOnyx]

For a while, I wanted to make a Patreon page, but they view that as begging for money. It's one reason I haven't created it yet.

I have no idea why such a thing would be an issue. If someone is willing to pay you for your services, why should anyone else complain? There's this incredibly outlandish ideology that one should just post their material because they like it and they shouldn't expect anything out it.

But nobody posts their work just because they like it. If that was the case, nobody would post them. They'd keep it to themselves and enjoy it on their own. Kind of like a hobby. However, people post their work for others to see because they want to get some kind of interaction out of it. They want ratings, comments, subs. They want and hope that others will be able to enjoy their work as much as they do.

So if someone thinks they can earn some money with that interaction and people are willing to pay, I have no complaints. I've made around $300 with Patreon and while it may not be a lot compared to others, I have no reason nor desire to complain. I try to have a lot of humility but I don't have enough humility to act like I don't enjoy getting such a profit for my work.

[LordVincent]

I hate to be petty, but could you please edit your post to make the quote direct to the one who actually said it? Right now you quote me quoting someone else but it looks like I said the thing, and honestly when taken outta context like that it looks like I'm trash talking my fans or something.
I'm not very well liked among certain groups of people so the last thing I need is a false bad impression of me spreading on top of that ^^''' Thanks in advance.

Unlike the misquoting implies, I do actually have a patreon page that has been growing well in various spurts. Having a slump right now but I expect it to pick up eventually. I've chosen to improve my rewards as well in hopes that will help

[ReroOnyx]

For some reason I could not find the original post of the quote before but thankfully I did and have made the edit. It should have the right person who made said quote there now instead of your name.

[Aspie_Gamer]

Something I'm seeing crop up a lot is the 'wannabe overnight success' artist. Now, I give huge props to all creators who have the courage to share their art with the world, but some are less...objective about it than others.

I recently saw someone whose anatomy/general art skills left a lot to be desired. They were clearly having a lot of fun getting their comic out there, but then I saw a link to a store page they had. They were selling prints for like $80 and bags for $35 etc with very poorly drawn characters on them, expecting to turn a quick buck.

Putting the merchandising/business side before understanding even the most basic of art fundamentals is a really egregious error and it makes them seem desperate to succeed without putting in the graft.

^^^

This sums up my thoughts on Patreon exactly. Just because you can make a Patreon page doesn't mean you should. I learned this lesson fast when I initially began my webcomic Life of an Aspie two years ago. Even now with the small audience I've been able to build, I just know that if I launched a new page for LoaA on Patreon tomorrow, it would sound less like "cha-ching" and more like crickets chirping. If you aren't already good at what you do or already have a strong audience willing to throw money at you every month, don't even bother setting up a Patreon much less any kind of online business. That's my words of advice to any newbies reading this thread right now who think that they have to have a Patreon.

And just so its clear, I'm not saying this to be mean for anybody reading my post. I'm saying this because its the cold hard truth. Too many newbies (I should know having been one of them before) think that success will come overnight or that they are the second coming of webcomics and that they'll be swimming in fame and/or money before long. Also, just throwing it out there. The few who do make money off their webcomics who are hugely popular on Tapastic or LINE WEBTOONS only make scraps on Patreon. (low hundreds per month that is)

In fact, about the only really successful webcomic I can think of that would match the insane dreams many amateurs have in this community would be the long running gaming webcomic Penny Arcade and that's only because the guys have their yearly gaming expo called PAX among other things (someone who's really business savvy also helps) to help sustain the life they have made for themselves.

[rd_inks]

Yup - 100% agree. They say in webcomics we shouldn't expect anything and that extends to Patreon. Hell, I'm not even gonna do one until I reach arc 2 which'll be later on next year and EVEN THEN, if I'm not at the level of art required for the rewards/don't have a buffer etc, I'm gonna be very cautious about doing so.

Hell, the low 100's would be nice. Means I can take the odd day off from work lol (I'm self employed so this is feasible). But in addition to this, I feel that the 'creative' has to cast their net pretty wide and have their fingers in many pies. And even then, this approach isn't for those that don't love what they do. Chase the money with various projects and you will burn out a lot quicker.

THIS IS THE LIFE.

[joe_galindez]

Just so it's clear, I'm not dissing Tapas here. I think sharing ad revenue is good, and so is having premium comics. Giving readers the option to watch videos to earn coins is also a cool thing. But tipping, by itself and as a concept, is not something an artist should seek out if they want to maintain a certain image.

I mean, it's one thing to have money thrown at you wherever you go and another to have in hand the digital equivalent of a tin cup.

Not to diss street performers either. I respect the skill and effort they put in, but the business model is basically high-effort begging. And it doesn't necessarily transfer to the online arts scene. Street performers and waitresses have tradition, social pressure, and face-to-face interaction on their side. Digital content creators don't.

Without a Patreon, readers can assume that they're the product. That is, that the artist makes money from advertising. But with a Patreon the artist is basically admitting that payment is optional. Which means it's as good as free. And what is free is worthless.

[Luminosophy]

I agree with you, and I never viewed it as begging for money. I'll probably make a page once I have time to produce more rewards - character profiles, side stories, and get some character art done.

I decided to eventually make a page way before I was ready and to be honest, I'm glad I did. I only have one patron but that's great because I can test out rewards that do and don't work for me (as well as continually update/ fix my about page.) I'm running more of a tip jar campaign and hoo boy, I am glad I made mistakes with only one patron rather than having to apologize to and compensate a whole bunch of people haha. What convinced me to do it was an article someone wrote about it. They said the time to make one is "now" - because you're competing and not competing in a way, against other established creators. Comics, art, writing etc is weird in the sense that while you are competing to have your name above others, it's a completely unique style to yourself that sells. Content wise you're always comparing apples to oranges when looking at other creators, so you want yours offered on the table for people to find it as early as possible. (Within reason of course, don't launch until you really feel ready.)

[LordVincent]

Thing is though that patreon and tipping are tools. It's only the equivalent of rattling a cup in hopes that people will be generous if you're not providing something in return.

I used to do tipping rewards a while ago where people who tipped a certain amount would be able to pick, by description, exclusive pay-only illustrations from my near-100-image library of yaoi art. People could also tip another larger amount and get a commission. It was a good way to provide the option to people who wanted commissions, couldn't afford it in real money but did get a lot of ads on the app. That's one way to turn the tipping option into a sales tool.

Similarily, on patreon I offer early access (At least 2 months worth) and patreon-exclusive bonuses such as the blank pages/original full size art and downloadable psd files.

[joe_galindez]

I feel a bit better about early-access. I wouldn't use it though. I cycle through my bookmarks every two or three months like a nomad going from pasture to pasture.

[Testaccount]

I'm sure most, if not all people would appreciate making money off what they enjoy, so if they make money doing what the love, I have no complaints.

[IdiotWithPencil]

I would say that patreon isn't a begging place since most place a reward EI sketches, first drafts or access to polls and other forms of interactions and content that are more of a bonus than the actual product

it's like a free to play game, the comic is free but if you want to see some extra things or have the ability to ask for a sketches/painting request fork over some money please

but that's just me

[joe_galindez]

I haven't thought of it that way.

Although, what's a writer to do if he cannot draw "el sketches"? XD