"Bad" artists giving advice to others

amortelito 2018-11-28 00:11:41 UTC #1

So, I have been watching youtube art critique and tutorial videos and I found a merciless war in the comments. I think that the most repeated argument in the comment section is: "You produce such crappy art, how dare you to give advice to others".

Personally, I take critique from anyone who has an argument that makes sense. Many readers are not artists themselves and is interesting to hear what a "common" person thinks, I might discover a blind spot. Other people might require a level of expertise from the commenter to determine if the advice is informed enough. For example when they advise you change your story, tone, etc, but that tactic has not worked even for them.

And in tutorials, I do prefer the content of someone skillful. If someone is giving anatomy advice of the hands and it ends up looking like it has play doh fingers perhaps that person is not ready to give advice because they haven't mastered the topic well enough. Maybe the difference is: what do need the advice for? education or just know an opinion.

Where do you stand? Do you visit the page of an artist that gave you feedback of your art? (I always do because I'm a curious cat XD and I can't resist!) Is it important to value their contribution? What about tutorials?

Also, have a nice day! -

aqua03 2018-11-28 00:18:28 UTC #2

Funnily enough, when i started work on Edible Green Tea, I was also kicking around another webcomic focused on teaching people art called, "You Can Draw This." but i put it on hold because my digital art wasn't quite up to snuff and I thought it would seem a bit smug and hypocritical to be teaching others how to draw when my art wasn't the best either. (Especially when combined with odd, occasionally self-serving, sense of humor.)

(Should probably revisit that idea some time again though, it wasn't that bad when I think about it again.)

punkarsenic 2018-11-28 00:25:24 UTC #3

oh yeah, 100%, whether its the right move or not. i try to be really good abt taking feedback, but its always a lil ego hit n before i take anything on board i wanna know where an artist is at in their own work. sometimes its a lil spiteful, but usually its abt seeing where it is theyre coming from - in terms of 'quality' and also just taste and direction. someone making minimalist high art nonsense comics is gonna give me different advice to someone making marvel derivatives (no value judgement on either btw)

however, i do think ppl are capable of giving advice they havent fully grasped themselves yet. when i first learnt abt gesture i was very excited to tell everyone else about gesture, but i was still struggling to harness it myself.

but if youre putting yourself in a teaching position somewhere like youtube? using your own work as the teaching tool? yeah mate, better be up to scratch. i dont believe the best teachers are always the best artists or vice versa, but you need to use examples of quality either way.

skicoak 2018-11-28 00:50:14 UTC #4

I'm not saying that's it's a flat out trap... but I'd be careful judging the merit of artistic advice based on a relatively small sample size of their body of work.

There's an artist in my local area that's a bang up fine artist but his comic book style makes you wonder if he has a stunt artist standing in for him. If he was giving me advice, on say anatomy, I know there's a body of work that illustrates his competency that I wouldn't be as sure of from his comics.

echoeotto 2018-11-28 01:07:15 UTC #5

Basically this.

I think craft and critique are two different skillsets. There's usually some crossover, but I don't think you have to be good at critiquing to be able to craft something well, and vice-versa.

That said, I think people that are good at critique can probably give better advice regarding what's working/not working with your art, but aren't necessarily right when they tell you how it should be fixed/refined. People who are good at the craft can probably teach you how to accomplish something, but aren't necessarily good at picking apart and analyzing others' work.

Kura 2018-11-28 01:32:31 UTC #7

I think it REALLY depends on the artist and what it is exactly they are giving advice on, cause I think that you don't need to be an exceptional artist to tell if something looks wrong in the art or if the panelling not reading properly.

On the other hand I had an artist trying to give advice on me on how to draw realistic blood (I think I mentioned something along the lines of how annoying it is to make sure all the blood splatters on a character stay consistent in every panel) and the advice was 'scribble all over your page in red, and then scribble all over your page with an eraser.'

fever 2018-11-28 01:36:59 UTC #8

Hm...I don't really know this, since before anyone ever really gave me any critique or "advice" I usually notice all the flaws myself, and retracted my own arts from public. I am extremely self-conscious of my own art, I have very high standard compared to my very mediocre skill but I can easily enjoy others' work without criticizing them if I like their style. Thus, I guess I'm open to opinion but any technical advices will not work on me, not because I don't trust them, but I really enjoy finding my own way, and can't really work inside boundaries/set of rules others have made. I have to make my own rule. This is why I quit my office job lol. I want to be free, to find a path myself and enjoy my own progress.

But if anyone gives me an advice that I esp do not ask them myself, I will look at their works to guesstimate at what level on the ladder of skill they are compared to mine, thus I can guesstimate whether they have the ability to see my flaws, or whether their style is parallel to mine to give critique accurately. Maybe this is extremely petty, lol. Opinion I will gladly accept all of them, regardless whether I agree with it or not.

Luminosophy 2018-11-28 01:39:58 UTC #9

Usually don't need to, whether the feedback is valuable or not will be present in what they wrote. For example "No offense but the nose is wrong." Could be true, but largely useless because it's not specific. A good example of a bad critique is someone always mistaking their personal preferences in style for technical errors. As long as you know what you're aiming for and the intent of your work, you should be able to cherry pick what feedback is relevant to you.

For this in regards to tutorials and youtube videos, there's definitely information being given out that is either outright wrong or otherwise teaches lazy/ bad habits. Rather than a blank ad hominem attack, I debate the advice instead and try to offer real world examples as to why thing X is Y instead. Most artists are largely open to new information because the entire purpose of creating their guide was out of intent to improve. Bring facts, not attacks.

dawgofdawgness 2018-11-28 01:45:22 UTC #10

Wellll, there are some kinds of advice that can help you regardless of who’s telling you it : “remember color theory” or “remember the areas of value” or “Study from real life”
It’s just basic fundamentals and there really isn’t a “wrong” way of tackling it - everyone has their own process and way of thinking about it.

And THEN there are those tutorials I see on Instagram where artists of different levels of skill give detailed step-by-step diagrams on how to draw something in a specific way. THIS is where things can get a little problematic. People LIKE step by step tutorials and neat little instructions for how to make things, but that’s not really gonna help you so much in art, where you’re encouraged to try new things and be creative. Like I saw a tutorial on “how to paint hair” but it was so cartoony and stylized that i thought it shouldn’t have been categorized as a tutorial... that’s just how to paint hair ... in the style of 666_420anime_girl or whatever.

Kann 2018-11-28 01:54:04 UTC #11

That's always a different point of view. Someone with "bad" art could see something a professionalist with amazing skills wouldn't notice at first. I used to know someone, who got offended whenever their non-artist friends pointed out some flaws in their work and using the "only another artist can judge my art" argument. Well, you don't have to be an awesome star cook to know if there's something off with the food. Also like with food. People like different stuff, so that spice doesn't have to be something bad. xD

But it's also about how the advice is worded. Someone giving me non-specific advice like "work on the anatomy" is not gonna help me. What is wrong with the anatomy? Point it out if it's hands, legs, or other body parts.

I admit I look at the art of people who gave me advice. Though it's mostly out of curiosity. I'm not the kind of person to use someone's mistakes (if they make any visible ones) against them as a comeback.

Rhonder 2018-11-28 01:59:18 UTC #12

I fell into this trap years back when I was a young, impressionable artist just starting out lol This was back when I was still on DA, but at one point my favorite artist put out a few tutorials, mostly on how to color with copics, but it dealt with inking and lineart too. Essentially that stunted my growth on line art for YEARS because she mentioned off hand preferring to line with like... 0.03 and 0.05 fine liners (since they looked good with her really super detailed style) and so I lined super thin like that for years, trying to get my line art to "look as nice/pretty as hers".

Welp my line art for all those years was pretty meh. I draw with a much simpler style, so utilizing thicker lines and varying line weight looks much better with my drawings. Finally when one of my non-art friends was like "yo, why does your line art always look so flat?" did it kinda click.

@ the topic at hand, I dunno if I've ever specifically went out of my way to check someone's page who gave me critique like that. Although most of the people interested in commenting on my work are people I already know so I'm already familiar with their work xD I agree with what some others have said, though. I care more about the quality/content of the critique itself much more than how the artist on the other end is, skillwise. It's like they say, "you don't have to know how to do something to critique it."

I have all sorts of flaws in my own art work, but you better bet I can point out inconsistencies, wonky anatomy, etc. xD even though my work is rife with those same issues... ; P

Kann 2018-11-28 02:15:03 UTC #13

I suddenly remembered about hundreds of "How to draw anime eyes" tutorials on DA. xD

shazzbaa 2018-11-28 02:27:34 UTC #14

I don't want to discourage anyone from giving advice, as long as you keep in mind that your way of doing things is just your way of doing things. You might have advice on drawing hands that one person would consider bad advice, but another person, who isn't as good at it as you are, would really be happy to find. If you say "THIS is how you should draw hands! This other way is wrong!" you might make yourself look a bit of a fool to folks who know better. But if you say "here's some tricks that help me! Doing x/y/z never worked out for me and here's why," then I don't think anyone can or should fault you for it.

As far as my feelings on getting critique from others, there's a quote on this from Neil Gaiman that I like a lot:

“Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”

skicoak 2018-11-28 02:36:43 UTC #15

I have an excuse for how I draw hands....

I have hobbit hands!!! And I've broken all my fingers multiple times!!!

That pie hand is my primary reference .

Zhengo 2018-11-28 02:38:59 UTC #16

It would kind of depend on how they word the advice and what kind of advice they give. I know a few artists that are kinda "do as I say, not as I do" type who acknowledge the flaws their working on right now who can still give solid advice because they at the very least read up on the fundamentals.

Also, although I dropped out of my graphic design major like a chump, I still found some good advice. Namely, if your creative work is made for an audience to consume, then you should consult the audience somewhere along the way. Not for the deep intricate stuff like asking them how to do so and so, but more so to find out what their general feelings are for something. I find consulting laypeople the most valuable when your goal of an artwork/writing is to try to communicate an idea. If the average person can't discern what your work is trying to say/gets the wrong idea, then that's a definite sign that there is more to work on.

Hodge 2018-11-28 02:41:26 UTC #17

There's a lot of ego traps to fall into with art, so I try to maintain a sort of detachment with my work. So don't really care much bout who exactly gives me advice. It's either useful or its not, and that's completely dependent upon me. As the artist trying to get better, you just need to make sure you're always analyzing so when someone gives you useful advice it actually clicks.

A-weird-girler 2018-11-28 19:32:55 UTC #18

Omg sameee! Exceot for me it was this youtuber DebbyArts. I tried to draw like her but it looked ugly as sin

Rhonder 2018-11-28 19:35:21 UTC #19

nice! mine was this person: https://www.deviantart.com/cartoongirl7

still really love their art. but... yeh my style improved like 10-fold when I stopped trying to do the thinnest lines possible xD

vfinnigan 2018-11-28 20:28:09 UTC #20

I stink as an artist, though I have taken art courses, art history courses, art appreciation courses, and such. As a health care provider by day, I also have to be familiar with anatomy and physiology. So even if I can't draw a human body very well, academically, I know how an attempt at a realistically drawn human figure should look. And I am familiar enough with a variety of art styles to know when, for example, it's OK to draw people in ways that would never really occur in nature. (Though I wish more manga artists knew that it's possible to draw faces with noses and have it still be manga.)

Wumbl 2018-11-28 20:45:09 UTC #21

In my opinion it's case by case. I think an artist can still be learning other aspects of art, but can teach you things about the parts they're good at.