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SeraphicMayin
Feb '20
KRWright

What do you think is the purpose of the three act sturcture?

I think it's the most primal way to tell a story. When you consider a story that's only two acts, things are good now they're bad or things are bad, now they're good. Something feels off on the rhythm.
But if it goes Good, Bad, Good. Or vice versa, now we have a story. The three act structure is a form that codifies this intuitive feeling of 'thats a basic story'.
Also it helps organize our thoughts in a way that expresses things clearly to the reader, whom we hope to connect with. If all the readers cannot understand our story then it's a problem with the story stucture.

Why do you think this structure is the most popular amongst storytellers across the world

I think the structure is as old as Humanity. We've told oral stories from the time we could. It's an archetypal form, within which a myriad of stories can fit. And for some reason having things in Threes really suits us. Three feels stable.
When a form can encompass such a wide range of stories, and can be used by a majority of the populous, becoming popular is inevitable.

What issues do you think sticking rigidly to the three act structure could cause?

Not all stories have three acts. I'll argue that you need at least three, but often there can be more.
I've studied more screenplay than novel recently, but when it comes to movies, they can have four or five acts, depending on their climax points.
Now a three act is suitable for most basic stories but even I prefer a four act (or three with a mid-act2 climax) structure myself.
The structure is not a formula, it's a form that can help a story gain clarity. It's a principle , not a rule, and so unless you're trying an experiment of Creative Constraint, there's no need to rigidly stick to the structure is the story wants more.

What works can you think of that use the simple three act structure?

Just the simple one? Fairy tales and fables. The simplest and most primal stories.
Consider the boy who cried wolf. Boy was bored, wanted attention; decided to call for a wolf and have everyone run and he has good fun; wolf really shows up, because of his behaviour no one comes and he's eaten.
Most modern novels and movies and certainly tv series have a sophisticated Three act structure. The meat of the story is filled with subplots and stratified sequences within the acts themselves. But a majority of them will fit the three basic acts because it's the archetypal form.

What works can you think of that break the rules of the three act structure.

As mentioned earlier, I don't think the three acts are rules so much as guiding principle, but that's semantics right now. I tend not to like stories that break this form just to comment on it or for the sake of it. Sometimes it feels like the author goes out of their way to be witty or clever or challenging and I'm left confused and unentertained.
The only book I can think of is Cloud Atlas? The whole thing is split in two parts of six stories that you get the first half for in the first half of the book, and it dominos out in reverse for the second half of the book. I guess each individual story had three acts but I'll admit I didn't enjoy the book and not a lot stuck in my brain afterward xD.
Another might be The Handmaid's Tale, which I loved. But only cause at the end it calls into question if the story was told in the proper order to begin with. Still it kind of had that three act rhythm if a bit tweaked.
In screenwriting, the forms that break the Act structure are Minimalism and Anti-plot which I'll admit I did not study upon cause ..I don't like writing that way xD. My best example is probably The Grand Budapest Hotel. Brilliant meandering of a fantastic, basically-a-book-out-to-the-screen tale. It even has a three-deep narrative within narrative setup.
Also possible that all my examples here show three act structure and I just ...really avoid stories that make it hard for me to understand what's going on. (even stories told in reverse -Pulp Fuction, Memento- make sense and have a narrative structure.)

SeraphicMayin
Feb '20
darthmongoose

YES. This can happen a lot.
What I've learnt is, (and this is why it's best to know your entire story before you start uploading it anywhere) is that in the editing stage. You can go back and plant motivations for later events that will smooth out the telling.

If they really have to go into the volcano, then you can go back and stick foreshadowing of the volcano Scene in the first act.

But you can't do that if you already started uploading the story and wrote yourself into a corner xD.

The great thing about the structure is that it can guide the editing process...but not the creating process. This is why it's best to just...write the story, then go back and examine how best the arcs of it can be organized unto the structure. Then write the story again, rinse, repeat.

LostSpirit
Feb '20
KRWright

I agree. It's possibly one of the reasons I stopped reading it altogether. But I do still find myself checking it out every few months - has a ton of entertainment value, as long as you avoid burnout that is.

As to the other point about GRRM, I know what you mean. But the challenge makes it more appealing to me, to try and work something that might keep readers engaged from start to finish.

UrMom
Feb '20
ben

@LostSpirit Yay for finding like minded people! Pff I should have waited for your post, you're far more articulate than me. xD

@ben No... that really is something some people debate on.
https://www.theproducersperspective.com/my_weblog/2014/09/the-secret-of-the-forest-gump-formula.html

There are also threads on the hellsite Reddit where they debate about what movies have a three act structure, and Forrest Gump is mentioned.

I myself am not saying it does or doesn't, I'm saying it's subjective to the viewer.

UrMom
Feb '20
KRWright

@KRWilliams Sorry for the double post! I didn't get a notification for your responses.

True. Although it is a little embarrassing at times to do webcomics, but not be a writer. At least when it comes to conversing about stories. I used to write as a child, but I grew to despise the physical act of it. Trying to condense my thoughts and feelings into coherent sentences is extremely tiring, and could usually be done more effectively with drawings... if that makes sense and doesn't sound pretentious at the same time...

Oh, well so much for that. Lol
I guess I don't really know a movie that doesn't follow a three act structure than, or at least I'm not skilled enough to spot any without the help of someone else.

I actually do have the whole story planned out from beginning to end, and everything in between. The unappealing thing is it really isn't meant to have action, or at least a whole lot of excitement.

Spoilers and Heavy Content
  • Chapter 1-2 is act 1: The MC (Apollo), along with his friends are introduced in chapter 1, along with a semi-intro to the other MC (Julian, Apollo's ex-childhood friend) at the end. Daniel, the Julian's partner is introduced in the beginning, with Julian getting a more proper intro at the end.
  • Chapter 3-4 is act 2: We learn more about the MCs,and find out that Daniel and Julian are a couple at the end of chapter 3, chapter 4 is character development stuff.
  • Chapter 5 is, I guess, act 3?: It starts out with cheating, character interaction and development. The big moment is when Apollo realizes/remembers that Julian once told him they were diagnosed with leukemia.
  • Chapter 6 is another act 2: More character development and interaction stuff. Apollo breaks something important while trying to help Julian at the end of the chapter, causing Daniel to get made and kick him out.
  • Chapter 7 is act 3: Daniel tries to kill Julian and Apollo, the police come and save them just in time. Julian is comatose in the hospital, Apollo tries to deal with trauma from the event. Julian wakes up, and is admitted due to their mental instability after getting better, Apollo later on admits himself into a mental institute at the end of the chapter.
  • Chapter 8 is another act 3?: Julian is mentally shut down so they can't really talk to Apollo. There is some character reflection and development. Apollo comes to the realization and acceptance that they were never really friends, and he really just saw Julian as his nanny. At the end of the chapter he makes the decision to be Julian's caregiver.
  • Chapter 9-11 is I guess another act 2 and resolution: Julian wakes up, they make the decision to get treatment for their cancer, Julian starts therapy, Apollo gets properly trained in being a caregiver for Julian, they start taking steps to get better. Apollo goes back to school, a lot of character development happens, Julian manages to get a new job in spite of being in the middle of chemo. At the end of chapter 11 Julian no longer needs treatment and is in complete remission, they have a small lunch party to celebrate, the end.

There is a ton more detail to it than that, but this is a basic layout.
Admittedly I could cut out stuff like establishing shots, I may be wrong in how I'm interpreting the three act structure, the subject matter is also kind of odd? There are some really specific things I want to tell, and every interaction and bit of development is important. The comic is very character focused. Maybe I could sacrifice some things to condense chapters, I'm just being a suborn baby about it, also I'm not quite skilled enough to know how to condense without losing important stuff.

KRWright
Feb '20
UrMom

If you look at films, they all pretty much follow it, as they all need to do similar things due to the medium of cinema. You're more likely to not find 3 act structures in things like video games, novels or comics due to the difference in medium. Majora's Mask would be an example of a game that doesn't conform.

I can see where you can cut things, or work things more intricately. Where you see 'character development stuff', you don't need to stop the plot to do it. I think some of the best stories involve the character development within the major plot moments, and so the story doesn't stall for a chapter for characters to grow. Of course, there are always transitional chapters, but usually those happen later in the work than the start of the second act.

You might really benefit from some screen writing guides like Save the Cat or John Truby's Anatomy of a Story (Save the Cat is far easier to follow). These break down what it is that makes up a story's main beats and offers a kind of... formula for basic success. It's pretty non-restrictive as well.

UrMom
Feb '20

Ah that's probably why I don't see anything different. While I read webcomics, I haven't played a video game or read a novel in yeeears.

Oh no! I guess I could delete that whole chapter and redraw it when I get the chance to. Or maybe delete pages like these.
Edit: Apparently you can't put images behind a spoiler, so here is a link to the three pages.
https://tapas.io/episode/13200481
https://tapas.io/episode/1326534
https://tapas.io/episode/1333056
Then maybe draw something more condensed to tie things off?... maybe I could delete the entire nighttime scene where the MCs talk. Or that one where Julian is having an episode. What sucks is the character stuff is the plot, it's all about character interactions, dialogue, flashbacks and visual ques. There are a lot of things I feel are part of the plot in that chapter, I'll just have to figure out how to rework it to only have those parts and nothing else.

Thank you for letting me know which chapter to get rid of, it'll hurt since it took me a year to finish, but if it affects the story negatively then it's a necessary hurt. Also thank you for the recommendations and taking the time to work with me, I don't like the idea of having to go by a specific formula, rather than just focusing on telling a story, but if I want to make something worth reading it's a necessity.
I'll definitely look up these guides!

KRWright
Feb '20

With webcomics, you certainly shouldn't be 'deleting' anything. It's more a thing to take into your next and future projects rather than to retroactively go back and do something about. It also seems that you've got slice-of-life going on, so it might be good to look at a variety of slice-of-life stuff and really dig down deep into what makes them work.

UrMom
Feb '20

I dunno, I'm in the process of preparing these chapters for print and if people buy it, I don't want them to pay for something bad. It would be a waste of their money.

That is a good point about looking through slice-of-life stuff, I follow a few comics and have watched movies/tv series in the genre, but admit to never being a fan. I'll start searching out more for study purposes.

KRWright
Feb '20

It's not 'bad' and I didn't say that it would waste people's money. There are plenty of novels, films etc. that aren't the tightest they could be! The Lord of the Rings has Tom Bombadill for example. No one has removed it from the main book, even though it tightens the plot to do so.

LDJones
Feb '20

Fancy seeing you guys here @saintc @KRWilliams

Preferred Name: LDJ or Pride
Pronouns: He/Him
Genres you create: Fantasy, Adventure/Action, Science Fiction
Where you plan to take your writing journey: Traditional/Self Publishing, Online Serialisation
Link to Tapas Account: https://tapas.io/ldjones1

UrMom
Feb '20
KRWright

Oh no! Excess filler weighing a story down being bad is solely my belief, at least for my own work, sorry if it felt like I was putting words in your mouth. I just don't want people to have a bad experience if they're paying for it.

Whoo gosh, Lord of the Rings is kind of a revolutionary piece that redefined the fantasy genre, I can see why no one would want to alter the original story. I agree that some loose baggage won't always be detrimental to a story, some stories can probably work pretty well like that, it just is for mine because I'm trying to stay focused on only the plot and character development that helps the story progress.

KRWright
Feb '20

Hi @Everyone ! It's the next day and yesterday's discussion went really well so I'm hoping that todays goes similarly!

As with the other topic, there's going to be an infographic and some questions! I won't be making infographics for everything (they're super time consuming), but I will for the first two as I know some people found them helpful!

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Lineia
Feb '20

I haven’t started my comic yet so I don’t really have anything to add but I think this is really cool and helpful, reading everyone’s discussions!

Iris-Grimoire
Feb '20
1

I skipped the first one but with characters I can spare some time to fill the questions out!

But first, on mary sues, I think the infographic missed a pretty big thing - invincible characters aren't Sues until the story itself revolves around their opinion and their being. Too many people like to throw that term as an insult at anyone that's a prodigy, but it's not the problem. Harkening back to the good ol classic My Immortal, the bad characters aren't bad because they do bad things or oppose the cast, it's only because they dislike Ebony and do bad things to her.

  • The hardest part of a character for me is not sticking to the first design or personality. It's too easy, but you need to test them with more than one iteration. Your first idea might be fun, but it's never as fun as it can be. Mortimer used to be a total edgelord in my comic, and the protagonist for my book plans didn't really have consistent flaws until I found her voice rather than try to put her in more cool situations.
  • Thumbnailing on the art side, gimmicks, projecting my flaws - er I mean making their flaws work with the scenes. So much fun and is the best route to find that voice if I just keep trying new things.
  • Whatever sounds appropriate at the time. Sometimes it's right in my head (Mort), sometimes it's an interesting term I came across or built from words that were in my mind for a bit (Veriesin), sometimes it's a lot of research and even making rules to name similar characters (Spinelthorn). Behind the Name and Etymonline are your friends, and if it's VERY hard, Fantasynamegenerators is a good emergency site.
  • Don't sweat it that it reminds you of another character on your first attempt. Again, never stick with it, work with it. Slowly but surely you'll find what works, find the voice, and find what makes them distinct from someone else. And also, don't be scared of things that might be overdone! Life's too short to worry if you're writing yet another brooding demon conflicted about their dark powers, think about how you can make them stand out instead.

As an example of characters that might come from anywhere, I have Spinelthorn on the mind so here we go. All three main hobs in the comic started as him, a tiny orange rabbit named Claws inspired by the Hopgoblin from the short film Reversal of the Heart. When I redid the entire cast, he slowly started needing more and more character traits to serve as Mortimer's lancer and started being too competent - so I split him into Fangs and Berylclaw to fit different emotions and roles without acting basically like a butler. Spinelthorn had no "himself" before that point, and without the scene roles, I finally had room to give him character, voice, flaws, backstory and everything.