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Mar 6
16d ago
DokiDokiTsuna
17d

...I promise this isn't just gonna be a big rant about how much I hate a trope, but like many of my threads it kinda has to start with one. ^^;

Although in my defense, I don't think I've ever seen anyone discuss this trope. Like, anywhere, ever. o_o Even though it's extremely widespread and I've been dodging it since I was a kid (maybe because it's more common in videogames; where story critique is sadly rare)...I don't even have a snappy name for it. Let's just call it Girl As Weapon.

Basically, there's a female character central to the story, bestowed with unimaginable power locked inside of her...simply so it can be accessed and utilized by a male MC. T_T

It almost feels like dishonest characterization-- the Girl As Weapon's name is constantly in everyone's mouth; villains and heroes alike talk about how powerful she is, how precious she is, what they need her for and how they want to use her...and unfortunately, the context of all this talk essentially reduces her to an object. ą² ļ¹ą² 
She is a means to an end, with no real agency of her own. The whole story revolves around the assumption that she will follow the whims of whoever "owns" her at any given time...and often, the mechanics of the story or the constraints of her personality/intelligence explicitly force her to do so.

If you're at all familiar with my tastes in media, it shouldn't surprise you to hear that I hate this trope. Bitterly. Like, imagine the AM rant with this trope in place of 'humanity', and it wouldn't even be an exaggeration. I want it off the face of the earth. =_=

Sure, it has its own value just like all the other tropes I hate, but Girl As Weapon is special in that people largely take it for granted. No one attempts to subvert it or comment on it...as I said, people barely even discuss it. It's like it's considered part of the natural order, despite all the other "sexist-in-execution" tropes around it that have been deconstructed by now.

Like, in the most recent example of Girl as Weapon that I know of, the Girl actually has her own weapon. ^^; She fights alongside the male MC...and yet, the most powerful ability that she has, which comes from an artifact she went out of her way to steal and lock into herself on her own, is still only accessible to the MC. By all accounts, this power IS HERS and should be hers, and despite the fact that she clearly has the ability and will to fight it's STILL delegated to someone else. It's almost more offensive. =_____=

I will give props to Revolutionary Girl Utena for coming the closest to actually doing something interesting with the trope, IIRC...it's been a long time; I don't remember exactly. ^^; But outside of that one anime (which is female-led anyway), I can't think of anything. Either this trope exists in its original unchanged irritating state, or it's not present at all.

And I was wondering why, and I had an idea...maybe it's because diving deeper into it would require a characterization style that most people don't think of as 'heroic'.

My knee-jerk reaction to seeing this trope is to immediately imagine myself in the position of this Girl As Weapon, and seethe over the frustration of this loss of agency.
Like "this is MY power, why don't I get to use it?? Why don't I get to annihilate my enemies with the holy flame-sword; why do I have to "lend my strength" to some random dude and watch HIM do it FOR me?? Why don't I get to be the hero; why don't I get to make the choices; why can't I be my own chosen one??"

...There's nothing inherently wrong with having those thoughts. But as a writer, I immediately recognized them as the thoughts of a typical villain. ^^;
"What about me" is usually what the badguy says...because thinking of yourself and your need for recognition, especially as a female-gendered person, is seen as a red flag. 'The kind of person who would want power is the kind of person who should not have it', and so on.

Now that I think about it, there are probably tons of Girl As Weapon deconstructions out there in fiction...but in the framing of irredeemable villains, who betrayed their more well-meaning masters and only use their agency for evil. I mean, I literally mentioned AM earlier...I think 'Girl As Weapon' and 'Computer Gone Rogue' are like two sides of the same coin in terms of storytelling themes; it's very interesting to think about. ^^ Perhaps in a future thread.

Anyway, if the obvious first-route deconstruction of the trope is for the Girl to reject her position in this dynamic and seek agency as a hero...and in doing so, seemingly set herself up to actually be a villain...in my mind, it makes sense that we're not getting many of those. ^^; Outside of 'believe in yourself~', morals that center on the self-image are very rare in the world of YA fiction where I live...it's why I've made a point of writing them in recent years. There seems to be a sort of unspoken taboo against wanting anything for yourself (that I want to break!) without some grand external motivation to justify it.

Personally, though, I think wanting to be valued and appreciated IS a grand motivation. :T It's a struggle that a lot of people experience, especially the marginalized, and the taboo against that desire is a large part of what makes it a struggle. Not only is it considered "self-centered" and immature, the idea that it's something you might not already have is considered shameful. Like, if no one in your life values your contributions or thinks of you as someone who can even make them...well, clearly there must be something wrong with you. Maybe your contributions aren't even that valuable anyway; why else would you be dismissed...? After all, life is fair and injustices aren't real... [/s]

So I guess the discussion question here is, do you know of any characters who demand recognition? Have you written any; read any? Even outside of the YA demographic? What messages do they send through their story arcs...?

I started a novel last year that was explicitly centered around this trope-- the power dynamic between the Girl As Weapon and her 'male MC' is pretty blatantly obvious; to the point where even someone unfamiliar with the trope could probably see where I'm going with it.

The real challenge in writing it (aside from the complex magic system, worldbuilding, and political plot...) came from the deeper character dynamics underneath the tropes. It would be easy to make the 'male MC' an abusive figure who actively prevents the Girl from having agency, but on the contrary, he encourages it; in fact he's the only character in the first arc of the story who tries to support her at all. And yet, it's not enough to actually make her situation better. ^^ As I reminded myself while writing, a systemic problem can't be solved by one individual's goodwill.

Similarly, it would be easy to make the Girl hate the 'male MC' for holding her back-- and she seems to; she does openly resent him. But at the same time, she clearly trusts him and appreciates his intentions, deep down. And when she finally wins her freedom by accidentally killing him...she feels guilty about it, and the spectre of villainy follows her throughout the rest of the story. Her motives are constantly scrutinized, simplified, and ultimately infantilized...the real villains of the story still see her as an inanimate object to be recaptured and controlled, and her inability to speak only adds to the misconceptions. But enough about a story I never finished; let's hear from everyone else now. ^^;

BoomerZ
17d

This is part of the mary sue template. "She is stupid powerful and everyone wants her on their side. She just needs to learn how to use the power she always had." What you described is literally Captain Marvel, the male being her male comrade. I find this lazy writing. My last comics (Little Ball of Hate) had an EXTREMELY powerful female in it (Baul). The story is not actually about her being powerful as that story is boring. It's about everything that happens around her. Her realizing her place. Her being being able to beat things is not the story. And the Male main character is literally just a 20something dude. There is ways to play with this dynamic that isn't just "female comes into her own" story.

cherrystark
17d

At least in reference to your trope "Girl as a Weapon", I think it's just another iteration of the "strong female character". The problem, IMO, with a lot of female-led fiction is that she either forces herself into the role as hero and everyone goes along with it, or she's the mary sue who just happens to be the best warrior, most magical, divinely chosen hero who can do no wrong even though she's a terrible person. She can "demand" all the recognition that she wants but her character arc is often self-actualization and "believing in herself" rather than any real change. The trope "usually" works better for male characters because their storylines are more about growth as a person and following the traditional "Hero's Journey" path.

I do think it's possible to have "realistic" strong female characters but they still have to be people. River Tam is literally written to be "Girl as a Weapon" but instead of her being written/treated as some overpowered messiah, she's a broken girl living in the world of Firefly. Wonder Woman is frequently an overpowered character and depending on which version you're reading, she can be kind of a brute. I love this stills of her from the comics because they show her humanity and heart. You can sense her love and grief.

So ultimately, for me, it goes back to my long-held belief - write your characters to be people over tropes. Tropes will always be apart of writing, but they shouldn't dictate how your characters end up.

bulgariansumoRegular
17d

If I'm reading OP's post correctly, I think it's talking about female characters who could just as easily be replaced by a cool sword or gun that only the main character can use, not so much a superhero or all-powerful woman who actually gets to decide when to use her powers. (I haven't seen this trope as much, but I think the Fate series has a character who's basically the main character's shield if I remember correctly and that's all she gets to be?)

I think the idea of someone like that, who has all this power that can only be wielded by someone else being frustrated with that could be interesting. That's not something I've seen before.

DokiDokiTsuna
16d
1
BoomerZ

OK, so you missed the point...

OK, so you also missed the point, and "this trope usually works better for male characters"??? Are you serious??? o_O
The most charitable way I can interpret that is "in practice, this trope is usually used better when APPLIED to male characters"...because of the overcompensation bias writers often have when working with female characters. :point_left: That, I could agree with...but it's besides the point.

Additionally: in the alternate universe where you actually read the OP correctly, understood what I wrote and made the same statement, I'd actually agree with you without re-interpretation, because although Boy As Weapon is incredibly rare I've never not enjoyed it. XD Black Rock Shooter: Innocent Soul, for all its freaky edginess, was bearable for me largely because the sentient magic-weapon-thing was such a fun character. He's the comic relief and the emotional grounding force, making all the tragedy and awfulness a lot easier to follow as a reader.
(He may also be a blatant Soul Eater ripoff...and if any Soul Eater fans want to chime in on this trope I welcome it)

Whenever a male character is reduced to an inanimate object, they usually become more charming and memorable; even when they're literally just a disembodied voice. If more Girls As Weapons got that kind of treatment instead of being 'demure goddesses' or glorified maid-girls, I might not hate the trope so much...

:point_up: Bingo.

This trope is near-nonexistent in Western media; if anyone else is looking to complain about 'strong women' you're barking up the wrong tree. ^^; And honestly, it's very...interesting, that people would just see "demand recognition" and "girl" in the same essay and immediately assume "Oh, you must mean another Annoying Woman(TM) who doesn't even deserve recognition!!" Like, you're literally who I'm talking about in the 6th-to-last paragraph...check yourselves, please...

KevinReijnders
16d

Do you have any concrete examples of this trope? I understand the concept, but I can't recall it seeing it anywhere.

jwabeasley
16d
1

I'll admit that since I don't watch mid anime much, I haven't run into this trope as much - could you give some examples of the trope that I can analyze specifically? Is this a trope more common in trash wish fulfillment isekais? The best example of this trope I can think of is Nia Teppelin from Gurenn Lagann, but she's hardly more of a protagonist power source than Kamina.

In the magic fox romance genre, there's something like what you describe - the male kitsune has all the magic skills, but his magical power is inside the female lead. Mostly, writers use this an an excuse to make them kiss right before a fight or at any climactic point. In its context, it's actually a women's wish fulfillment trope - to have a powerful man who does all the fighting, but is devoted/dependent on her for his power. I have a plan to dramatically play with this dynamic in chapter 7 of Etherwood, but you'll have to wait until I get to it.

There is a little bit of a basis in reality for this - for many men, the presence of a woman is energizing. Think of the tourney knight and his lady love from the chivalric romance period. I have read some plausible theories as to why this is but that's another discussion. Also, for fighting men, the knowledge that you have a woman who cares about you or who depends on you - a wife or daughter, usually - can be very motivating. It has helped me to push through during difficult times, like when I was in basic training. In anime, everything gets overexaggerated, so having the woman literally be the reservoir of the man's power seems like a logical extension of that dynamic, even if it has some absurd and unfortunate implications.

cherrystark
16d

Yes, but no to missing the point. But I definitely could have explained my point better. My point about "strong female character" and the trope generally working better for male characters is really more that the story she's existing in, isn't meant for her. Male lead stories in the similar realm focus on him stepping up to become the hero he needs to be. He could lose everything he thought that mattered but that's okay because he's a better person because of it.

The problem isn't simply "A powerful woman is never allowed to use her abilities or else she's another #annoyingwoman". For me, it's the story she's existing in. It's why witchcraft stories are still so popular in Western media. She could literally have the ability to rewrite time and bring people back from the dead, but the story lets her grow and have agency. People rag on female characters a lot because the story is always telling us how strong and powerful she is. The strength isn't often shown in the story. The trope works if you just let her be a human and her motivations be a reaction to what she's dealing with.

Oriflamme
16d

Have you read Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao? It uses the whole girl as a weapon (or in the book case, magic battery for mechs). The protagonist is someone who was crippled to fit the world beauty standard, and volunteers to become one of those magical batteries in the hope of having the chance to kill the man who killed her sister. Throughout the novel, there is a sense of palpable rage at the society that reduced womens to mere objects.

DokiDokiTsuna
16d

I feel like I'm summoning a demon by name, but...Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is a textbook example of this trope, featuring not only a prominent Girl As Weapon, but an entire world full of People As Weapons who apparently have no idea what to do with their own power. o_o

The game's story repeatedly addresses and admits that being a Person As Weapon is difficult and inherently tragic, as they lose all their memories each time one of their owners dies, and are essentially reborn with the next owner.
However, it's also established that People As Weapons can "own" each other, opening up the theoretical possibility of a society of People As Weapons no longer beholden to humans or enslaved by them...but no, they just use each other as tools the same way as the humans do, because screw solidarity, apparently. ĀÆ_(惄)_/ĀÆ Why help each other or try to solve a systemic problem when you can simply enjoy the benefits of having a kind slaveowner, and occasionally express pity for the thousands of others who don't get that privilege...?

Other fun tidbits:
-As you might have guessed, the main antagonists of the game are a team of People As Weapons (more or less), but they don't do the obvious 'going rogue against humanity' plot. Which would be fine if they did something interesting and unique instead...unfortunately their motivations are so convoluted and contrived I'd need another 2,000-word essay to explain them
-After the events of the game, the main Girl As Weapon splits into her two distinct personalities, both of which have children with the male MC. There's also another female protagonist in the game who is eventually revealed to ALSO be a Girl As Weapon, and ALSO has a child with the male MC, so he and his quasi-literal slave harem can be one big happy family. In other news, I wanna shoot myself
-...The other games in the Xenoblade Chronicles series aren't nearly this juvenile; I feel like this disclaimer just needs to be said when talking about XC2. (ļ¼›ā€²āŒ’`) It has a bit of an unfortunate reputation that's 100% deserved, but that reputation taints the rest of the series by association, and that's not deserved. Just FYI...

This is a very astute analysis; I had it in the back of my head but you expressed it perfectly. :thumbsup:

And honestly, that's why the "knights and princesses" precursor to 'Girl As Weapon' doesn't really annoy me at all, because it actually expresses ^that. The idea that having a beautiful, goddess-like ideal to envision and dream of and pine for gives you the strength to endure, in a time period where war was at its most widespread and miserable...it's poetic, and usually portrayed with such grounded raw emotion that I can just get immersed in the dynamic.
...Y'know, as opposed to having the princess follow the knight around like a piece of useless arm candy, with the expectation that I should think she's cool and making a contribution because reasons...

...I think I understand what you're saying, but (a) I already acknowledged that that's probably what you meant. Didn't the words "overcompensation bias" tip you off...?
And (b) that's still not the trope I'm trying to discuss. Allow me to direct you to the part of my essay where I explained it:

DokiDokiTsuna
16d
Oriflamme

I have not read it, but I HAVE heard about it and I'm familiar with Xiran through her videos. ^^ I had no idea Iron Widow played with this trope too; I thought it was more of a mecha anime deconstruction. Very interesting...

vapidink
16d

I couldn't think of anything that really fit this trope perfectly. Soul Eater and Noragami came to mind first, tbh, but to me they do a better job at treating the "weapons" as actual characters. Maybe that proves your point about this being an issue with male leads and female "weapons" though, because the main weapons in those shows are male.

There's also Elemental Gelade and Saikano, which I either never watched or just forgot. Elemental Gelade I think fits this trope the best and it feels like the female character is literally objectified. She's a really rare weapon and somehow that makes her vulnerable because people want to kidnap her. Also, she's the main love interest which makes me laugh because I had the thought of a teenage boy thinking the only thing better than a girlfriend would be if said girlfriend could turn into a super rare weapon, which, yikes. :cry_02:

Saikano is more interesting in that it's about a girl who is unwillingly turned into a weapon and the show centers on her questioning her own humanity. But then, to me it's ruined by the thing that makes her realize she's human being love. sigh Nothing against romance, but I don't like it when characters place their value or humanity on whether they are able to love, especially in a romantic way. Having the answer to this struggle about her identity center around the male love interest just seemed like it minimized the MC's own value.

But yeah, I don't think I've ever seen the trope be turned into something like the weapon seeking recognition. At least not when the weapon is a girl.

Zhengo
16d

I would say Mikasa from Attack on Titan is a variation of this trope, she's not literally "a weapon" that other people use but she is essentially super powerful woman whose main characterization basically revolves around Eren. Actually, you could say she is basically a "tool" for Ymir to seek validation about letting go of a person you love. Mikasa's entire arc is just revolved around her being in love with Eren but then Eren went crazy so now she has to let him go. Ymir sees that and is now fine with releasing the titan power. So yeah...Mikasa despite being super strong has her entire arc revolve around a guy and being used as validation for someone else...Oh yeah, and I can't really tell you what exactly is Mikasa's personality besides "stoic badass"

For my own writing, I guess my current story Luma kind of explores the "people as weapons" trope in that Demigods are basically deemed to serve the interests of gods since their birth, and how the characters deal with that with differing philosophies and behavior. My MC is rebellious but she's also young and a little shallow, so in the beginning her acts of rebellion are not very drastic and a little aimless. My goal in writing this story is that she eventually grows and starts making more concrete decisions for herself, even if it might put her in a bad spot with the gods. But we'll see how that goes :stuck_out_tongue:

jwabeasley
16d

I haven't played it, but after reading your description and the wiki I'm glad I haven't. It sounds terrible. Very anime in a bad way. If I'm doing a sentient weapon (I have for D&D) it is a huge missed opportunity to wipe their memories between owners!

Zhengo
16d

Actually now that I mentioned AoT I just realized Ymir literally IS the girl as weapon trope, she was literally used by the king to create more titans for his conquests. And also apparently in love with him? @_@ Yeeah, despite being enslaved and implied to be sexually abused by the king her whole life apparently the only reason titans still exist in the modern day is because Ymir is in love with her abuser and won't let it go.

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible for someone to be in love with their abuser or Stockholm Syndromed into it, but this feels like something that would need to be explored deeply on a psychological level, not something that that AoT kinda just handwaves away with "Well she just needs to see an example of someone letting go of their love"