Classic book format option along with vertical - creative freedom

fanyart 2015-01-29 04:55:42 UTC #1

I have been wondering about the vertical comic format. I know it's popular now and great for gag short comics but for story driven comics it's kind of suffocating. Many authors go around it well but I can see that if it had been done in a classic page or even double page format, it would have been something totally different.

The vertical format feels playful at first (when I first learned about vertical format I was all "that's cool! So creative!" but all the ideas you can use it for get old quickly - you can make a high cliff, deep cave, path down a hill, clouds, sky... but that's about all. And when you want to show a scenery, you can show just a small part, there is no room to breathe, no space for a pause to enjoy the feeling of the moment. I know some artists solve that by having most panels the size of a movie screen so that the comics with scrolling plays like a movie or putting a lot of space between the panels, but that feels as if it was out of despair and the artists were literally pressured from the sides of the vertical format boundaries. (And putting a scenery panel 90° CW, unless it's the intention, turns the feeling of a normally positioned panel upside down.)

I know there are those statistics that people read on mobile phones and so, but together with them there are also laptop users with widescreen displays for which the vertical format falls painfully short. For those readers it would be great if they could browse the comic page by page, enjoy wide panels with sceneries or with moments to last long, or slanted action panels and characters looking up (which are simply not possible with scrolling through a long stripe).

What I'm trying to propose is that it would be nice if along with the vertical format authors had a choice to publish in a classic page format with the option of double pages which is now completely out of question with the max image width 1000~px. I don't want to say that the vertical format is bad - it's great with its pluses and cons but purely for the sake of the creative freedom of artists I hope Tapastic will expand the horizons and allow the artists to make the choice whether they want their readers to scroll through their comic or browse through it like a book with double pages (which is great for modern pc and laptop monitors BTW). Tapastic is by far the best webcomic hosting I have seen so far but this thing would take it to a whole new level.

Are there other authors who feel pressured from the sides by the vertical format boundaries?

(I have been working a comic with love in my freetime but when I think about starting to ink and color it, I always think "What's the use when there is nowhere to publish it with those double pages.")

scythe 2015-01-29 05:06:59 UTC #2

I feel the same way, it can be limiting in some ways. But as with anything there are always pros and cons. I actually prefer reading the vertical format comics online, despite its limitations. I'm only new here, but already I'm getting the feeling they seem pretty deadset on promoting vertical over full pages.

At the same time, I'm not going to not have big beautiful double page spreads in my comic. They're my favourite pages. So I just made my own tumblr page that has the option of displaying either single page or double page spreads, depending on how wide the browser window is.

You can see it here.

PotooGryphon 2015-01-29 05:25:48 UTC #3

I create in both formats and release them on different series. One series is vertical format and the other is the same comic in page format. I don't really feel pressured to go vertical. My comic looks better on the mobile devices in the vertical format and it gives me a chance to create a new and different reading experience. My vertically formatted series is twice as popular as my standard format series, so it definitely seems worthwhile to keep creating vertically, and I find that it's good to have the option to read the comic in page format for the readers that prefer that format.

keii4ii 2015-01-29 05:28:11 UTC #4

This! The traditional page format is not without its limitations. And I'm not just talking about the inconvenience for mobile viewing. Take mobile completely out of the equation, and both formats still have their pros and cons.

Having more options is always a plus! But having done a traditional page format for years... and having done the double page spread with my own comic (not the one that's on Tapastic)... I've seen how ugly it can be, too. It's jarring when the comic image suddenly changes dimensions.

Less jarring if the comic is always viewed two pages at once (like an open book), but THEN you have the problem of breaking the flow of the eyes when it's not a splash page: left to right then down, and then back up to view the other half of the image. When you're holding a real book in your hands, this isn't a big problem because most books don't open completely flat; the subtle difference in the angle of the pages tell your eyes that the two pages are two separate things. But on a screen, I've always found it awkward to read comics on sites that show two pages at once.

A double page spread in a physical book imparts an impact that digital comics (whether it's page-format or vertical format) can't quite achieve. I'm not sure what would be the best way to address this. For now, I just accept it as a limitation of my medium of choice, and try to take advantage of the advantages the medium offers.

The first few times I saw this in webtoons, I hated it. But then I've also seen some examples that didn't break the immersion for me, so there seems to be the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it.

I hated the 90º tilted panels when:

they contained a lot of details on the character(s).
they're actiony. Action is heavily dependent on gravity (unless it's space fighting action?) so when you turn gravity sideways, it feels VERY off for me.

The ones that I didn't mind were neither actiony nor character-centric. In addition, the tilting added to the storytelling: I had to scroll to view the panel, or at least make my eyes travel more, which takes time, and the panels were "a long moment" kind of a scene in the story.

Raven_C 2015-01-29 05:45:17 UTC #5

From a reader standpoint, personally I like appreciating a wide-panel scenario and to pause (to "breathe" and enjoy the moment as you said, OP). I like looking at an entire scene and I'm not a big fan of separated segments/elements just to fit the vertical format. The reading experience is just different, so I get where you're coming from. But really, I'm pretty neutral about it. I'm aware mobile comics is becoming the thing, but I've never felt pressured to reformat my comic (I just keep it the traditional way). The only thing I don't do is double-page spreads. The thing I love about Tapastic, though, is the infinite scroll. I'm just a big fan of it. It's great! Haha.

PotooGryphon 2015-01-29 14:16:48 UTC #6

How interesting would it be to have an infinite canvas in all directions, leaving it up to the creator to create wildly inventive new ways to progress through the story.

Like Scott McCloud's idea for infinite canvas:

He also has an amazing Ted talk about it:
http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_mccloud_on_comics

Sketchmazoid 2015-01-29 14:21:57 UTC #7

I never understood why a horizontal scroll is not considered? I mean especially on mobile a horizontal scroll would be just as easy as a vertical one, and lends to splash pages etc. It's not hugely beneficial for desktop, cause theres no like sideways scroll wheel, but I'd imagine theres a way to make it so the vertical scroll wheel causes horizontal scrolling? I saw this comic that scrolling like just kind of brought you where it wanted you to go, horizontal, vertical even diagonal.

Drezz 2015-01-29 14:30:32 UTC #8

There's an app called Scrollon which features comics that use a horizontal scrolling format. Cool concept, but limited to the works of the creators of the app, so it isn't the greatest in terms of selection.

My original layouts were all done in 'print' format - the traditional page style, but Tapastic is geared towards mobile users, so you need to format for mobile if you want a higher percentage of readers. If you want to have a 'guided view' style experience, you have to submit to Comixology, but their backlog for independent creators is so ridiculous that you have to wait almost a year to get one issue up on their market.

If there's a way to customize your current pages to work with a tap-to-enlarge panel format, it might work for traditional pages here. But I think the only real solution is for reformatting to mobile - and that's a LOT of work. Case in point - I reformatted my first issue to a more mobile friendly version and it took me almost 6 hours worth of layout time to do it. Multiply that by 12-13 issues and it will take some time...

If we're not ready to invest the time, it's something we'll all have to suffer with.

Alli 2015-01-29 15:15:37 UTC #9

You can totally make some wider pages. Just put up a preview on Tapastic as a placeholder and leave a link to the real image, which you could easily put on Deviantart. It's not ideal, but it will work and you don't need to worry about Tapastic's limitations. Speaking of Deviantart, you can now arrange the contents of folders from oldest to newest and even open a pop-up with back and forth arrows which is really handy for webcomics.

I like Tapastic a lot, but they push mobile too much. The staff claims the majority of their users read comics on mobile, but personally I don't like their mobile site and I had to delete their app because it was bothering me. Oh, get your daily comic snack! You can't do anything else until you scroll through these comics you don't like, and it's the only thing we will give you notifications for! ...Yeah, that's SO helpful. I don't prefer getting notified for new feedback on my comics or anything.

Still though, they probably aren't going to change their dimensions anytime soon to accommodate desktop/laptop screens. If they don't see any benefit to it, then we can't really blame them. Don't allow yourself to be limited by stuff like that. Art isn't meant to be caged.

michaelson 2015-01-29 18:32:19 UTC #10

Theoretically, what Scott McCloud is proposing is awesome. It opens up so many more possibilities in terms of how we tell stories, how we guide readers through an experience and possibly creates a great mechanic for telling stories that diverge into different paths (choose your own adventure). However, I don't think what he's proposing is easy to create both in terms of making a website or making a comic. But I really do hope to read something in that format.

I don't think that's really an ideal way to read a comic. For one, that completely breaks the suspension of disbelief and would take me out of the reading experience.

The same sort of applies when:

Hmm, so... I guess this is where I talk about the philosophy of webcomics and the direction we want to head in. I believe that webcomics is at its core very different from traditional comics. Tapastic was built for webcomics, a lot of the tools, a lot of its structure, its ethos and more are dedicated to this format. Webcomics for me, are comics made specifically to be consumed on the web - it's sort of the opposite of what creators think of when creating. Basically, think about how its going to be read digitally first, then go back and think about reformatting for physical (if and when you do).

I don't think you can replicate the feeling of a double page spread digitally. It's just not the same. There's a visceral feeling about opening a page up and being engulfed. You can't replicate that on a phone - and trying to squish a two page spread on a mobile screen is a really bad experience on the reader side. Yet, we see so many other sites trying to do this.

I honestly don't think there can be an industry for webcomics if we continue on that path.

So the next question is, why do we push mobile so much?

Distribution.

If we're talking about the advantages of webcomics, at it's core, it's all about distribution. We don't want to give anyone an excuse not to read comics. Can't make it the comic shop on Wednesday? No problem. Got a phone and a 5 minute break? Perfect.

We want to make reading comics an everyday habit for the everyday person. We want to help creators get in front of the right audience and exposing creators to first time readers is a delicate art. For one, we need to make sure the creator's comic is easy to read, they should feel natural on a phone or mobile device. Again, don't give the reader an excuse not to read.

Sorry this response is sort of getting away from - I really hope that makes sense (?). Looking forward to seeing more from this conversation.

The guy's at Scrollon are great! I think their app shows a lot of promise - the way they're really pushing weaving every panel together makes for a really unique reading experience. Their app really shows that there's a huge difference between reading horizontally and vertically. Definitely keep your eyes peeled on them as they're going to have some exciting stuff coming out this year.

PotooGryphon 2015-01-29 18:49:24 UTC #11

Oh for sure! A website that could accomplish that kind of platform for webcomic would probably be a piece of web coding masterpiece and definitely way beyond my comprehension of web development. However, I could see that idea as a possible glimpse at what the future of webcomics could be.

Uploading a comic episode would probably feel more like a creative interactive game with designing which direction each page/panel is going. Or perhaps just a flowchart that users drag and drop pages/panels into... Even, though I have no idea how it can be done, I find it fun just trying to imagine how it might be a possibility. haha

gateofselidor 2015-01-29 20:48:41 UTC #12

I have an existing comic with over 100 pages that I migrated to Tapastic with the Inkblazers closure, and it's been quite an experience to get used to the vertical format here. I've just started reworking the early pages into a proper vertical layout, and it really changes the feel of them.

I only have one double-page spread in the comic, because my working process meant I had to pencil it on A3 paper and I think it took about three weeks to complete the page, which rather put me off doing any more. I do have a lot of horizontal landscapes used to set the scene though, and I'm worried that converting pages into the new format will lessen the impact of them, or that I might have to slice them up into multiple panels to achieve the same pacing as in the print style pages.

I'm not sure Tapastic needs another format option though. There are other comic hosting sites with more flexible layout options and user bases that are more likely to be looking for traditional formatting in the webcomics they read.

acf 2015-01-29 21:28:39 UTC #13

I must say that personally, I prefer the traditional page format over the vertical layouts.
It's true that a lot of people is browsing Tapastic on their phones or tablets, but on the other hand, monitors are becoming wider and wider nowadays, so it'd certainly be a shame to start pushing everything towards the vertical format while neglecting the PC users

fanyart 2015-01-30 00:27:39 UTC #14

Yeah, that's exactly what I have been secretly wishing for Tapastic to introduce after expanding horizontally to the classic double page!

I have been working on a comic about the rock cycle for the Trivia from Nature (I planned it to use for my geology education assignment) but realized that it would be hard for readers to keep the whole idea in mind while scrolling only down - it's good when the rock gets sedimented but not when it goes up a volcano back to the surface to complete the cycle.

It would have been really cool (especially for mobile phones wth touch navigation) if the comic didn't have to be only a vertical stripe but also a circle or U shape or whatever curved shapes (imagine a groundhog's home with all the tunnels and rooms).

That's why I really do hope that Tapastic as probably the most used webcomic platform doesn't get stuck with vertical format forever and tries to expand in all directions, starting with the double page classic format (because I suppose it's way easier to write code for that than for the "all directions" format.

Imagine all the creative possibilities! That's like having three whole dimensions more to work with!

fanyart 2015-01-30 00:42:19 UTC #15

Hello, another refugee from inkblazers! I completely understand what you are going through with the emotions getting lost in the vertical format. I need to take a look how you solved it.

Can you tell me about other webcomic hosting sites that have those flexible layout options please? I would like to see that - to tell the truth, I'm here on Tapastic (and before Inkblazers) because of a social media assignment with the focus of shifting trends of webcomics and the initial reason I started posting my old comic from highschool was because I wanted to test out the new webhosting sites (back when I was in highschool the trend was definitely having your own comic website), and it kind of got out of hand
So far I have found and to some degrees "tested and analyzed" Inkblazers, Tapastic, Comicfury and Smackjeeves (and by a wide margin the site with best potential for average starting authors was Tapastic), do you know some more?

PotooGryphon 2015-01-30 00:57:33 UTC #16

If Tapastic were to pull it off, they'd be first webcomic site to offer that. That's progressive, and a sure way to really stand out upon all the other webcomic sites. *wink wink nod nod

Honestly, however, I think Tapastic already strongly stands out upon the rest of the webcomic sites, and their infinite canvas setup is top notch. This is just purely an idea to crank the awesome switch to volume 11!

fanyart 2015-01-30 01:07:48 UTC #17

Thanks for the thoughts and info. I just wanted to propose the idea with the "why close the doors with vertical format for mobiles when what's fun can become even more fun".

I believe there are more people like me who prefer reading on laptop and when they can choose between vertical and classic page format, they go for classic. (I don't really want to write that I feel discriminated when I have to read on my super wide screen a narrow strip with two big blocks of unused space on the sides. ) Shouldn't it be up to the readers and authors how they want to tell / read the story and not up to the current trends?

Isn't it at least possible to change the limit of image width to about 1500 px for readers to be able to read even double pages when the story needs it? Because with this small change Tapastic would become a more universal platform when it already has the "preadaptation" of the arrow keys navigation (thumbs up for that!). Is this possible?

Zanreo 2015-01-30 14:11:17 UTC #18

I do all my comics in a vertical format, even the shorter gag ones, and think this looks best. If anything, it certainly beats having to scroll horizontally (and I feel like a horizontal comic like you're talking about would get too small for my comic, I like drawing big). Vertical scrolling seems more natural. But hey, giving creators and readers more options can only be a good thing, and for those who want it I don't see why not.
Haven't really neeeded to use something like a big scenery reveal, but in that case I could just mess around with the panels/have no panels around that frame to make it stand out. (Messing around with frames in my longer comic is definitely something I should experiment more with in general...)

michaelson 2015-01-30 19:30:05 UTC #19

I feel like I already covered a lot of this with my previous post but I want to get creators away from thinking about comics in the classical sense - we really need to move forward. I don't think that offering two different reading experiences benefits the readers - especially when our focus is delivering content to mobile devices.

Also, just think about how you consume content on the web. Try thinking of all the sites you use on a daily basis whether it's tumblr or facebook or instagram, etc. Notice how they're all formatted so that you digest information by scrolling down? It feels natural. That's what we're trying to get at - the natural consumption of information and making it easier to read comics.

Classical - page style viewing just doesn't make any sense on the web. Refreshing a webpage to read the next page of a comic just isn't the ideal experience and isn't taking advantage of the unique consumption experience that digital has to offer.

fanyart 2015-01-30 22:11:59 UTC #20

I don't think that's entirely true, on the contrary, scrolling narrow stripes on a 1920x1080 px laptop display is what feels funny there I understand that the majority in your stats read on mobile phones but people reading on PCs or laptops aren't such a minority, why close the door on them?

Maybe I'm just pushing things but isn't it purely the choice of the author to decide how to best express their stories? Pushing them to do what's currently in (and probably won't be in a few years) just because it's in isn't exactly opening their minds - that would be presenting them with the publishing choices they have for their comic, let them consider these possibilities and then decide which way is the best for their story to be best expressed.