CRAFT TALK: Page/Panel Layouts

[ERossUra]

Hey all,

I've been looking for good places to talk craft and I'm surprised I didn't think of the forums here first. So I thought every week I'd launch a discussion about a particular aspect of the craft of creating comics. This week? Panel layouts!

Panel layouts are a unique challenge that I think a lot of people don't give enough thought to. The structure of your page is integral not just to communicating the story, but also to setting mood. Grids are great due to their relative neutrality and ease of use. Jamie McKelvie and Dave Gibbons both use grids to remarkable effect in some of their most deep, challenging works. But unless you really know what you're doing, grids can get very stale over the course of long stories.

That said, coming up with unique layouts also provides its own challenges. Do you come up with a layout first, or figure out what the page needs to do and work from there? I prefer the second option, but you can surprise yourself by picking a layout and forcing it to work for you.

What are your favorite strategies for dealing with page and panel layouts?

[Ringarune]

I usually start with just a small thumbnail and the text that needs to fit into that page on the side. Then I just experiment from there with laying out my panels on the page. I usually try to avoid grids and like to play around with diagonal boxes and sometimes even add some motion lines or spikes to my panels to demonstrate motion. I also like to vary panels, some being surrounded by a border while others are not bound by anything, I feel like that just adds variety. I try never to compromise clarity of reading though for the sake of just having a cool panel layout.

[DeadAccount]

With Drugs & Wires, our layout very much depends on the script (mostly written by D&W co-creator, Io Black). As much as I'd love to do wacky layouts and full page spreads, our script is very dense and packed with dialogue, so making everything fit and having enough space for frames to "breathe" and have emotional impact is a weekly challenge for me. Usually fitting in the dialogue takes priority so we can't afford slow, manga-like pacing. We only update once a week so it's crucial to have some kind of finished thought/punchline in every page, but I definitely have to sacrifice other aspects for it.
I think webcomics are great for layout experiments since you're not constrained to a page format - however, at the moment we do try to format everything for print, and it seems like most long form story creators do the same.

[ERossUra]

I usually try to avoid grids and like to play around with diagonal boxes and sometimes even add some motion lines or spikes to my panels to demonstrate motion

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that feels like a very manga-influenced style. I love the layouts in manga. Generally speaking, it seems like there's more creative layouts in manga. And I love the way lettering (particularly sound effects) are incorporated into the art and panel design. Diagonal boxes always seem so dangerous to me, particularly because you end up with corners that you can't do a lot with.

our script is very dense and packed with dialogue, so making everything fit and having enough space for frames to "breathe" and have emotional impact is a weekly challenge for me.

When I was only writing, I found this was a huge issue in my scripts. As soon as I started drawing pages, I found ways to cut words and tried to be more expressive with the art. Lately I've been trying to tell stories entirely without words and found it to be so refreshing.

at the moment we do try to format everything for print, and it seems like most long form story creeators do the same.

I'd tend to agree. I think print is so central to the comics medium that people don't get as outside the box as they could. But I think that's partially because of the perception (true or not) that there's more money in print than there is in posting on the web.

[Ringarune]

yup, my panel style is very manga influenced. I'm usually ok with using diagonal boxes since I usually end up using 2 in correlation so their edges meet up and end neatly with the page (if that makes any sense) or I combine a diagonal panel with an open spaced panel. I guess this page from my comic is a good example of what I mean

The top part with the hand is combined with an open space panel, and in the third row the 2 furthest diagonal panels to the right are two diagonals that fit together

[ERossUra]

Yeah, see those are diagonal panels that work really well. The ones that weird me out are the ones where you effectively have a square cut into 4 panels with 45 degree lines (forming an X). It makes the reading order strange, and at each corner there's not really enough room to put anything other than a block of color.

[Ringarune]

I wouldn't even be able to fit a picture into such a panel XD

[Shanny8]

Usually when doing the "storytelling" pages , I more or less stick to basics- unless I'm going for a particular look that I know will pull the reader in. When doing action sequences however, it's almost a rule of "anything goes"- as long as it's clear, concise, and keeps the story flowing.

[SpavVy]

I tend to draw and redraw thumbnails a lot until I'm satisfied xD
One of the things I like doing is when I want a shot to really focus on a character I tend to make that character big and pop out of the panel a bit (or a lot) and do my best to not have it cover important parts in other panels. Like Ringarune, I also make diagonal boxes and very manga influenced myself.

[R.n.P]

i don't have much of a plan when I draw panels since I flow with the mood so I rarely plan panels unless its for something epic I wanna show
THE LAST SAMURAI

[AnnaLandin]

I have an outline for what needs to chappen in a chapter, which I then break down into a page-by-page list of what happens (like, "Page one, main character walks through the woods. Page two, he spots something weird on the side of the road. Page three, he goes to investigate", etc.)

I then take that and turn it into thumbnails - and write the first draft of the dialogue next to the thumbnails. That allows me to control the pacing, AND control the placement of the speech bubbles. Always, ALWAYS plan out where your speech bubbles are supposed to go before you draw the page. This allows you to avoid crowding your characters with awkwardly placed bubbles, and lets the page flow better.

My panelling style is closer to manga than it is to the strict grid-pattern, because I like to play with the size and angle of panels to imply motion and passage to time. Very tall, large panels encourage the reader to move their eyes vertically across the page, and can be effectively used for vertical motions - going up/down stairs, falling, implying that there is someone above the characters looking down at them, etc. Small, overlapping panels look like very quick snapshots of things happening at the same time, and create a kind of staccato rhythm in the reading experience. Very wide shots imply a longer passage of time, and work best for establishing shots of environments. Panels with a lot of space around a character drawn quite small imply a sense of space, or silence, or loneliness, etc.

In part 3 of Grassblades, I played a bunch with filling the gutters between the panels with stuff too:



Here, the darkness that turns up on the first page (page 11 of the chapter as a whole, IIRC) spills out between the panels on the following page, connecting them together and implying that something unsettling is happening, and on the third page of the sequence, the darkness turns into a giant demonic entity with a creepy snake-tongue. The darkness (I've been referring to them as "ink blots" in my head while drawing these pages) then flows between panels throughout the rest of the sequence with the demon.

There's lots of stuff you can do with layouts and panels beyond just showing what's happening.

[demthorshie]

I place the parts of my story document that I intend to create as a panel and place it in parenthesis along with the actions that I plan on having the characters do as well. And if I know for a fact that i'm going to have trouble with a certain page, I create a mock up of the page with panels included first. I don't really think about it much because I already know in advance how I want the pages/panels to look. :3

[Mane]

I have a very simplistic panel layout, probably thanks to being strongly influenced by Dragon Ball. There is not much panel layout diversity there so I didn't use that much either. You see Kubo Tite use it really creatively sometimes in Bleach, but I've never had the imagination to come up with something like that?
As for your question , since I'm not restricted by a fixed page number for each chapter, and I can stretch a scene over several pages, I don't really concern myself too much with the layout. I think first and fore most of the scenes in images and then how I want them to look on the page. Often times I actually imagine the scenes in motion and the convert them to still images , I try to use the storyboard technique for my stories. The most I creative I can get is when I try for have the form of the panel indicate the direction of a movement it contains......it that makes sense. I currently don't have a page to use as an example.

[ERossUra]

In part 3 of Grassblades, I played a bunch with filling the gutters between the panels with stuff too:

Oh man, I remember reading those pages. I love the half-face panels on that first page, and then the cutaways and the darkness exploding out are SO good. Really inventive layouts.

ALWAYS plan out where your speech bubbles are supposed to go before you draw the page

This is something EVERY ARTIST MUST LEARN. Especially if they ever plan to cede some control to a letterer. Not having enough space for the dialogue when you have no control over the art is the worst. Don't piss off your letterers! Haha

I think people underestimate the value of planning ahead of time. Knowing what needs to happen on a page in relation to the whole story is absolutely key to good pacing.

[phen]

See, I always plan out where my speech balloons will be and get them down before I start inking but as god is my witness, I end up hiding that layer every time and do WAY MORE WORK than I should on character/background elements that get super detailed. It's so frustrating, these little habits!

But yeah, for planning and plotting panel and page layout, I always do thumbs with special attention as to how it will look in print -- I try not to do repeated compositions if the pages will lay next to one another. Other than that, it's a matter of one panel-at-a time with regards to action and key shots. It begins to unfold on its own as you go, that's the most lovely thing about getting in that zen state while you do layouts~

[agentfink]

I sketch my pages after reading the script a few times, but I don't feel bound to the script. If I see a way to make the page better, I make the change... and vice versa, if my writer (and husband!) thinks there's a better way to translate a page he suggests it.

Because I am doing all of the art, I find it's easier to make space for the lettering. Depending on the page, I either letter first, or draw first. We intend to print, so a lot of page layouts also reflect how it will be seen in print.

These two pages, for example, are intended to face eachother.
Because of this, it determinded what the previous pages needed to be.

We want to make sure that each PAGE tells a story and leads into the next page.
The reaction originally was on the next page, but having the Sheriff turn around led into the next page.

A lot of planning goes into the pages, but we've found, looking at the story as a whole and determining the action of that page, helps with the script and the layout. When we talk story, we see it from this birds eye view of the chapter to be.

[ERossUra]

We want to make sure that each PAGE tells a story and leads into the next page.

THIS. I think when webcomic readers complain about bad pacing, this is what they're picking up on instinctively. It's less of an issue in print, because the reader gets to immediately see what happens next. But when you have to wait a week, ya gotta make every entry count. But even then, you get so much more value of your real estate if you treat print the same way.

A lot of planning goes into the pages, but we've found, looking at the story as a whole and determining the action of that page, helps with the script and the layout. When we talk story, we see it from this birds eye view of the chapter to be.

I don't necessarily have a response to this, I just wanted to highlight it because I love this way of thinking. I think it leads to much stronger pages and panels.

I don't mean to be prescriptive in any of my comments, but to a certain degree I feel like approaching long form story telling without a plan is akin to performing a piece of music without practicing. You might be able to get a few measures or phrases in on your sight-reading ability, but you aren't pulling the depth out if it that you could be and eventually it'll trip you up.

(How's that music degree working for you Ross? I'm finding uses for it okay!!)

[Axx]

right now my comic Arcturus is pretty simple layout, grids and rectangular panels and such, because I know the whole story of the comic and want to use colour/ panelling to try and show the atmosphere for the characters - so I can mess it up for dreams and things like.
I don't actually work from a script just storyboard it out in the thumb nailing - try and combine the word breaks with the panel directions and stuff naturally. I don't know if I'm successful but I love sinking the work into it. reading this thread, I really can't imagine working from a script or with a righter like some of you do - amazing
I finally read Habibi the other day, if you're not familiar it has probably the most incredible layouts you can find in comics- if you're looking for some inspiration I couldn't recommend it more.

[shaylafarley5]

I usually draw a storyboard first to see how I would draw each panel. If not I rely on certain manga that uses great panel layout. Rulers are really helpful when planing out the panels before actually drawing the lines.

[ERossUra]

I finally read Habibi the other day, if you're not familiar it has probably the most incredible layouts you can find in comics- if you're looking for some inspiration I couldn't recommend it more.

I LOVE HABIBI. I can't even imagine how many years that would have taken to draw those pages. Craig Thompson's other big book Blankets is really good too, but Habibi has it beat in terms of layouts for sure.