Crime Stories And Criminal Protagonist

[HGohwell]

So, a few of you said you wanted to actually discuss things like Mafia Romance so I thought I'd broaden it out a little to involve a little bit of a wider selection and get more people involved.

One of my favourite portrayals of a Mafia-like organization is in Bungou Stray Dogs (one of my faves in general) a seinen manga that pulls very few punches when it comes to the Mafia (they call themselves that, I'm not sure how accurate it would be as a title). Most of the characters within the Mafia are characters. They're people. A lot of them are """"""nice""""" (how many quotes do I need to put around that to make sure no one accuses me of romantising it?) people who are shown as friendly and polite and respectful. We're introduce to the Boss in the guise of a bumbling doctor who's lost his 10yo daughter and gives the MC some good advice. We're introduced to an older lady who seems to genuinely care for those under her watch and wants what's best for them. We're introduced to a cool old man who interrupts his subordinates bickering with good natured firmness. And then the Boss walks into a blood soaked crime scene with a twisted body (the manga is very graphic about what they did to that poor guy). The older lady is a brutal assassin who manipulates children and teenagers into a criminal lifestyle by being the one being there and "she's the only one who will ever love them". The cool old man and his subordinates shoot an entire warehouse of innocent people for being there when they're doing business. There's a huge theme of monsters never present as monsters. Unfortunately the coolness leads to a lot of fandom forgetting what the manga goes out of its way to show - even if they're """""nice""""" people they are not good people and even if they have tragic backstory, they are brutal.

Another one following this pattern, or at least a similarly, is Black Lagoon. Who once again, do not shy away from the brutality of these, essentially, pirates and mercenaries. In fact it reinforces this message constantly. Revvy hates any implication she's a nice person of any kind or any attempt to justify her with a tragic backstory or softening up. Black Lagoon is inspired by American action movies, so it's a bit more over the top, but it doesn't shy away from it either.

And, I think when I think about my favourite crime stories or criminal protagonists, they're the ones that commit. Even think about something like Death Note. They commit to the bit. Light is not really portrayed, at least from my reading, as a good guy. He's kinda insane. And I feel like this is important. I think this probably goes for all genres, but I feel like when you don't commit and try to justify or soften the criminality of it, you lose something. Even softer, more funny versions, say Going Postal, doesn't hesitate to show the damage Moist did. Even if he's not really a criminal any more, they don't try to soften the blow.

So? What about other people? Discussion and debate in general? Any tips? Should we be romanticing criminals? Does it matter if we make them cool like say, those heist films? Or con man series? Is it ok to portray criminals as heroes? Any tips? Pet peeves?

Just a thread for discussion criminals, mafia, stories about such things ect.

[CodeMonkeyArts]

So...I'm writing a Mafia Romance with the MC being a Super-powered Mafia Queen and I try to go out of my way to portray her and her dealings brutally and hopefully sell that she is bad.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong with heist films or romanticizing criminals. Reality is filled with gray rather than black and white.

Interested in what other folks think

[HGohwell]

Sounds interesting! I always think it's tricky to get a balance between brutality and interesting, although I think if Light can get away with mass murder we're pretty ok to do anything.

I don't think there's anything too wrong with that sort of thing either. I find them pretty much (mafia romances) but I tend to find heist films interesting when they go all out. Like, if you're gonna heist, go crazy zaney scheme and I think it gets refuge in audacity territory. I love a good phantom thief story (I'm currently writing one). While you know, burglar breaking into the neighborhood isn't really so interesting to me.

[DasIstWunderblyat]

In the other way, I don't understand how to root or make people root for them that instead. Like how to make the balance that audience tolerate them while they still can condemn the bad thing the characters do, not make them want to watch the characters be skinned alive instead or be thirsty simps.

I personally do not like such criminal protagonists, real life criminals are terrible enough and I don't want to give them any semblance of humanity where they can't treat their victims as human. I don't know, I am not suited for such escapism and fantasy.

Also aspects of romanticization and rooting will be boosted a lot if they're hot. Make a hot character, and people will forget everything awful they do (especially if male).

[HGohwell]

In the other way, I don't understand how to root or make people root for them that instead. Like how to make the balance that audience tolerate them while they still can condemn the bad thing the characters do, not make them want to watch the characters be skinned alive instead or be thirsty simps.

I think this is part of why they work best in seinen or the equivalent (so aimed specifically at adults) where you can get away with a lot more critical thinking and layers of grey. BSD, as I've mentioned in previous threads, had this exact issue when western teenagers assumed that since it had similar themes to teenage aimed BNHA, it must be ok for them too, and were then appalled to find it was full of morally grey characters. I think part of the trick is to just make them characters, rather than just defining them as "a criminal". For instance, even Light had a family. He couldn't kill his father even knowing it would be for the best ect. Striking a balance is always the hardest part, of course, but I think having a rounded character (as most characters should be) definitely helps if we want the audience to tolerate or even root for them.

[cherrystark]

It depends on how the story is written. Famous "lawmen" and gunslingers of the American Old West were essentially criminals, depending on the story, but they provided a balance to the new and developing country. In the 1920s and 1930s, American gangsters became legends because people needed stories, so Bonnie and Clyde and Al Capone were romanticized heroes in a world where everyone had nothing. Capone is the reason why milk has expiration dates printed on it. He refused to have a child die from drinking expired milk. One of my favorite shows portrays the main criminals as "Robin Hood". They commit crimes to help others.

I don't like the senselessness of some crime stories. There is one thing to go fight for the little guy but it's another to glorify violence against others. I think if you are going to write a story about criminals or criminal activity, we should know the characters' reasons behind it. A movie about stealing the Declaration of Independence wouldn't have been nearly so entertaining had we not known why Nicholas Cage was trying to protect the historical document from Sean Bean and his henchmen.

[DiegoPalacios]

A technique that is often used is to give these criminals redeeming qualities, make them entertaining to watch and/or making them target a person that is worse than them.

[HGohwell]

I think if you are going to write a story about criminals or criminal activity, we should know the characters' reasons behind it. A movie about stealing the Declaration of Independence wouldn't have been nearly so entertaining had we not known why Nicholas Cage was trying to protect the historical document from Sean Bean and his henchmen

and/or making them target a person that is worse than them.

I think TV Tropes calls this the Criminal Justification. Especially useful for heist movies. Yes they're technically breaking the law, but look how bad the guy they're stealing from it. Or things like the thing their stealing already being stolen. It works quite well.

I don't like the senselessness of some crime stories. There is one thing to go fight for the little guy but it's another to glorify violence against others. I think if you are going to write a story about criminals or criminal activity, we should know the characters' reasons behind it.

I think this is why I like it when they don't try to pretend people are good. Even when (like BSD and Black Lagoon) there's a "good reason" for them becoming a criminal (BSD makes it very painfully clear this Mafia targets teenagers and children from the slums essentially going "it's us or life on the streets" and refusal has got at least 2 groups of friends killed to get to the one person they actually want leaving them with literally nowhere to turn) there's still this sense of how brutal it is. I'm not overly fond of this idea that "yes, they're a murderer but they had a hard time so cut them some slack, he's a good guy really". I like a reason, not an excuse, I think sums it up.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Should we be romanticing criminals?

This may be splitting hairs, but 'criminals' has such a nebulous definition that I don't know if this is the right question to ask. ^^; Defining crime and labeling people as criminals is done with a purpose, and a lot of times that purpose is just to control people and/or benefit a select few...

...Basically, yes, there are many many criminals that people would (and arguably should) romanticize and portray as heroes. See the entire dystopian fiction genre for a start. :9

Anyway, to get back on topic: I don't really go for those kinds of characters. I have respect for them and the people who write them; I admire the ability to really dive into the depths of cruelty and callous brutality and swim around in there and pull out a human being...

I can't really connect with stories that focus on that, though. ^^; Every time Little Mr. Human Trafficker or Little Miss Vivisectionist comes up on the screen and gets their sad backstory/cute character moment that's supposed to force me to bond with them, I'll just be sitting there like :DDD "aw that's sweet please make them go away now".

I can't just forget the person they mercilessly beat to death two episodes ago...that stuff sticks in my mind; explicit, abject cruelty leaves a permanent impression on me. If they're lucky, I might stop getting nervous around them by the time the series ends, but that's the best I can do.

As a result, I don't write many 'brutal' characters...if I do, I usually write them with the same lens through which I watch them: detached, unsympathetic, maybe even a bit on the 1-dimensional side. That's just not an emotional space I like to be in, I guess. =/

[DiegoPalacios]

I think one of the trickiest part of writing crime stories is to avoid falling in the "Darkness induced audience apathy". This happens when things seem hopeless enough that readers lose interest or when there is nobody worth rooting for.

[DiegoPalacios]

that's a good point. Not all crimes are equal. Some actions are just too messed up to get viewers to root for them.

Sometimes crossing those lines are deliberate signs of the character losing their way, or becoming antagonists.

[cherrystark]

I think TV Tropes calls this the Criminal Justification. Especially useful for heist movies. Yes they're technically breaking the law, but look how bad the guy they're stealing from it. Or things like the thing their stealing already being stolen. It works quite well.

It definitely does work and if the story is done well, it's a delightful distraction. But it's not perfect since some of these stories have inspired real-life crimes because the stories were TOO convincing.

[HGohwell]

This may be splitting hairs, but 'criminals' has such a nebulous definition that I don't know if this is the right question to ask. ^^; Defining crime and labeling people as criminals is done with a purpose, and a lot of times that purpose is just to control people and/or benefit a select few...

...Basically, yes, there are many many criminals that people would (and arguably should) romanticize and portray as heroes. See the entire dystopian fiction genre for a start. :9

I think this is totally on topic anyway and a fantastic point. Criminal is a very subjective thing that can vary hugely by location and time period and that's without going into the fictional world's rules. It was normal for young girls to marry grown men once and still is in some places. Sometimes when we watch a romance and it's an older character romancing a highschooler it's met with "that's illegal" complaints and the counter argument of "it's legal there" ect. For instance, it's legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow off the walls of one of the UK's big cities because no one ever wrote it out of the law. And yeah, a lot of dystopian fiction heroes are built on the concept of breaking the law.

I think one of the trickiest part of writing crime stories is to avoid falling in the "Darkness induced audience apathy". This happens when things seem hopeless enough that readers lose interest or when there is nobody worth rooting for.

I hate this. I was watching one anime, can't remember which, but we were supposed to be wanting the heroes to save this city, but the people of the city were such dicks basically the entire fandoms was like "nah leave them to die". I think this can also be somewhat dealt with by making them characters outside of just criminals. But also pet the dog moments and people they care about and token good team mates.

[Linski]

I'm in this post and I feel attacked.

Okay, simping is an exaggeration in my case, but it's not hard to get me to take a liking to a villain, antihero, antivillain, etc. The easiest way to lose me, actually, is by trotting out the maudlin, tragic backstory or otherwise trying to woobiefy them in an over-the-top way to justify or soften their actions. Just own it. I know they're ruthless, or manipulative, or WHATEVER; that's why I like 'em as a character!

[HGohwell]

I think real life crime stories are sorta their own beast. I know we've had a lot of drama over here with companies dramatizing murders (recent murders like 10 years or some) and making victims seem like they did something to deserve it or the murderers were justified (I seem to remember one of the most recent was a story about an "honour killing" because a Muslim girl was dating a white boy).

[domisotto]

Most adventure fiction rotates around people who live strange lives. As I said in that other thread before the hoax was explained, Mafia is a framework to write adventure fiction in real world, where the characters can fight and shoot and kill and live by different laws.

I quite enjoyed writing a mafia romance novel because I could set it in familiar contemporary setting, but have crazy plot turns, murders, fights, dungeons.

I am hoping to write a sequel with an even more outrageous plot.

I love fantasy and SciFi very much, but I am totally happy to write adventure romance with the Mafia in the same escapist broad strokes vein I write my fantasy. It won’t have rape-abuse relationship typical of the subgenre and gritty stuff, just like my fantasy is the light kind, not grimdark.

Since my first contemporary romance failed hard, I talked with the folks who know me and my writing before doing a mafia romance, talked to popular mafia romance writers, and chose sort of dark comedy/big adventure vibe, hoping it will be successful. One of my friends told me that my condotierri based character was pretty much a mafia character anyway, so I kept it in mind.

I was also advised to go with the Italian crime family, MF, and I did that, despite a lot of the story taking place in France. The initial design paired a Jamaican descendent protagonist from Montreal with a Vietnamese love interest against a French family, FF pairing.

Can’t say that one has to twist my arm to go for an Italian love interest...

Next story in that setting, I plan to return to the female protagonist who is too strong for most people’s tastes. I will dress it up with a couple of popular tropes that I hope will help me hide it, and, consequently, find readers for the story.

[HGohwell]

Most adventure fiction rotates around people who live strange lives.

I think this is very true and I think that crime romance isn't really any different to a lot of others. For instance, I'm a huge fan of mecha scifi anime. Which will often involve some kind of war (because if you listen to anime those Space Communist Soviet Nazis are everywhere and only the Empire Of Japan can stop them!) and depending on the series, that can be played really straight and really brutally. It can get dark man. You don't generally see people saying that having a romance in that kind of setting is trivializing or romanticizing war. I think most people consume media knowing it's all fictionalized and not like this irl and aren't looking for their lives to actually be like this. It's just a cool fantasy. Like no one really wants to be locked in a cabin in the woods with an axe murderer but we're fine to watch/read it.

[domisotto]

I don’t think anyone wants to be beaten up within an inch of their lives either, have cancer, lose all their loved ones, get buried alive etc, but how many fantasy books start like this?

How many people truly want to live in a Kingdom under absolutist monarchy? But fantasy pumps it out in millions a day, as if putting the right king in place solves all the problems...

Nobody wants to starve or to take charge, but dystopian fiction thrives on starved teen MCs who lead everyone to the same weird liberation from insane governments that mostly preoccupy themselves with what their subjects do in the bedrooms.

The whole werewolves genre sells again and again the same formula of immortal fated love blossoming from a forced union in a suffocatingly hierarchical not upwardly mobile society.

Lol, about the only popular trope one might want to live through, is probably to run into a billionaire in a cafe, and he falls madly in love and gold plates their lives, but that one by some reason comes in a tandem with rape or bdsm to force the heroine to discover her amazing sensual prowess.

I can go on and on about tropes that are not that great in reality, but in fiction we know that the MC will have pages and pages of suffering prettily or set half the city on fire, but in the end it will turn out alright...

[But_a_Jape]

I'd say in addition to making your criminal protagonists sympathetic, setting them up as the "lesser of evils" is a good way to make sure your audience roots for them. Yes, they may be thieves/murderers/selfish, but their enemies are 10x worse, especially when those enemies are ostensibly the enforcers of the law. Your criminals may break the law all the time, but at least they have a "code" of some sort that they're not hypocritical about, unlike the crooked lawmen who say they're enforcing order but are little more than a state-sanctioned gang. That's something that works for the Straw Hats in One Piece - Luffy explicitly states that, as a pirate, he's selfish and wants all the meat for himself, but we see him and his crew as the "good guys" because they are still much better people than the corrupt World Government and the practically sociopathic other pirates.

Keeping this balance is also imperative if you want to tell a "fall from grace" story. If you want your hero to have a negative character arc where they start off somewhat noble but end up irredeemable, make sure their targets are no longer less sympathetic than they are. When does Light Yagami's actions become less justifiable? When he immediately attempts to kill L just because he (correctly) called him a criminal. When does this happen for Walter White? Well, a lot of people might debate this, but a common event people point to is when he turns down a job at Grey Matter, which would have completely covered his medical bills. He's no longer driven towards a life of crime out of necessity, he chooses to do so because he's too proud to settle for something he sees as beneath him and this causes irreparable harm to countless innocents and his own family.

[HGohwell]

Lol, about the only popular trope one might want to live through, is probably to run into a billionaire in a cafe, and he falls madly in love and gold plates their lives, but that one by some reason comes in a tandem with rape or bdsm to force the heroine to discover her amazing sensual prowess.

To be fair, it didn't used to. Before 50 Shades this was a very popular genre fro Mills&Boon that was just billionaire falls for a lady and buys her lots of stuff and they have happily ever after (with just your standard amount of drama) (I have more than I care to admit because charity shops basically gave them away pre-50). Also, you know, pre-pre-50 they were Rebecca and that's it's own can of worms (we know 50 took inspiration form Rebecca, after all).