This post is a little too irrelevant and narcissistic, so -snip-
Mm, heavy stuff. I feel that...I think that's something all artists go through at one point or another (sometimes repeatedly...).
You can't know what you don't know...and just knowing isn't even enough. Most young artists are aware of the problems in their art, the differences between it and professional work...but they just haven't gotten hold of that 'x factor' that will help them actually make use of that awareness.
And when confronted with a critique from someone who doesn't understand what it's like to be in that position, who expects a mistake to just be immediately rectified (or to never have happened in the first place)...who wouldn't feel powerless?
Personally, however...I actually feel more powerless as I gain experience. ^^; Because eventually you get to a point where most people you run into just don't know how to help you anymore.
75% of art tutorials/advice is targeted towards learners and beginners, people who simply don't know things yet. So once you know things, suddenly the resources available to help you keep improving all but disappear. It's no longer enough to passively gather info and inspiration; you have to hunt down material that will teach you the finer and subtler points of your art, and pray that the people creating it know what they're talking about and how to explain it in a way you can understand. 'Cause, again, there aren't a lot of options.
And critique becomes a nightmare...most people will be nice, e.g. "I think it looks great; can't think of anything I would change!" But every one of those comments is like another nail in the coffin. ^^; They're sweet, but they aren't helpful. Worse yet, they imply that no one can even see what you're trying to accomplish, which can feel very isolating.
And then, there's that special population of commenters who seem to think "hm, I can't see any obvious flaws...so clearly the next best thing is to point out something I just don't like about this piece and present it as a flaw...!"
Or, they seize the opportunity to regurgitate the latest internet artist 'hot take' and pretend it'll be the answer to all your problems. Because if you aren't doing it, and you're unhappy with your art and not sure why...faulty logic leads to only one conclusion.
The worst part is, if you try to disagree with these people, you get painted as an ungrateful b!tch who was probably just fishing for compliments. And it makes total sense, unfortunately, because that's exactly what it looks like: when you leave the positive comments alone (because they aren't helpful) and only argue with people who give you advice (because it's BAD) and there isn't any good advice to prove otherwise, you just look like someone who can't handle critique.
The whole situation is tiring and discouraging, and after enough of these experiences, you just give up. I'm trying really hard to figure out what I still don't know and to teach it to myself, because I don't feel like I have any other options. I don't have any artists of my skill level to approach for advice, and going to the general public is just...well, see the above.
Occasionally I stumble across a good high-level tutorial while scrolling Twitter, but at all other times I really do feel pretty powerless.
I suppose I have a lot of conflicting opinions on critique, but I do like the approach your painting instructor took, namely explaining how to fix mistakes and the effect that the changes he suggested would have on the painting. In fact, I think that's one thing that's missing from a lot of critique, maybe from no fault on the critiquer's part. (Since critiquing is also a skill.)
For example, I've gotten critique like "I think your lines are too thick" or "your linework is more stiff than your sketches". These are things that I already knew ahead of time, so I could agree they were true. However, they left me with no new practical idea of how to fix the issue! In the end, I had to bumblelord my way into either better sense over time, or a teacher who explained some principle to click into place.
I've also gotten critique that turned out to be at least partially from a place of personal animus, and that's one type of critique I really dislike. IMO, critique should come from a place of wanting to help someone, rather than cut them down, make them do things your way, or make them feel unwelcome. That's one cutthroat part of the whole hobby shebang that I could really do without!
But critique from someone who knows what they're doing? They can instantly elevate your understanding, and that is incredibly valuable. I haven't had the experience of outgrowing beginner advice yet, but yeah 
I think that's one of the reasons I don't usually ask for critique - I have no intention of changing the piece I'm showing my critics and the only thing I'd want out of it is an impression of my art skills in general so I know what direction to head in for the future. But if I don't respond to their particular criticisms and change that particular piece, I'll get paranoid about them thinking I'm being an ungrateful bitch who's ignoring their advice :'D
Yeah, I definitely felt powerless as a beginner. And I didn't need critique for that either; I could see the difference between my work and professional work without anyone pointing it out for me. Tutorials didn't help with the powerlessness either; for me it was less that I couldn't make my pics look right; I knew in theory I could make a faithful rendition of anything if I really wanted to, pixel by pixel.
It was that doing so would have to take herculean effort; combing through countless tutorials and references, editing and re-editing over and over again, perhaps spending months just for one image that didn't even have fancy shading or lighting. Imagine what I thought when I'd heard that even 1 minute of animation consisted of hundreds to thousand of images :'D
I felt like I wasn't getting any faster. When skilled artists say they can do it quickly after decades of practice, that just felt so long to me. Now that I'm older, a decades feels like nothing; I'm totally unfazed by the prospect that my comic will probably take a decade to complete 
I totally feel less powerless now that I'm more experienced; I don't really feel the lack of resources because I just don't feel like I need any. As my art skills improved, so did my analytical abilities and if I feel like there's something off about my art, I can usually figure out why - if not immediately, then after sleeping on it a bit.
Maybe it's because I'm not in a rush to improve, or fix my art; if I actually kept track of things, I'd probably realize I actually take months to figure out what was wrong with my art, but it doesn't feel like a long time because my attention was elsewhere. I've got more things going on in my life now than I did as a kid; back then, I was pretty much always bored and didn't really have much to do except draw, so it was more frustrating when I couldn't turn around my failures immediately because I'm stuck in time with my failure with nothing else to occupy my attention XD
I totally feel you on the 'people thinking you're an ungrateful b!tch who was probably just fishing for compliments' think though :'D I've been on the other side too, where I've been trying to give advice to someone but it never seems to help, but I do try to actually figure out what the person was trying to go for and only dismiss them if they refuse to work with me and answer my attempts to clarify my understanding of their vision.
In general, I think critics need to realize that people's art problems aren't that easily solved; they've most certainly tried that 'obvious' solution you're about to suggest; and just because they've told you your suggestion didn't really help doesn't mean they never intended to listed to you to begin with. (I might not be one to talk though; it's not like I put in the effort to help many people these days, partly because I realize how labour intensive it is to properly listen and everything)
I know I've been fighting you in that other thread wrt (in)sincerity, but tbh I also can't bring myself to participate in 'support culture' XD I try not to give other people shit for doing it (I operate on the assumption that when people say they like their friends' work and think you should check it out, they do genuinely mean it), but I myself am a picky bastard and know for a fact that I will be acting insincerely if I proactively supported most people I talk to, and I myself don't like being 'supported' (I like people to interact with me because they feel like it, not because 'it's so hard being an artist these days so we artists need to stick together' or something :'D)
I don't think my general attitude towards critique has changed that much tbh; I can feel irritated about critique that doesn't really help with what I'm going for, but I actually consider critique to be somewhat of an ego boost, especially if it's unsolicited XD It's like 'wow, this person took time out of their day to engage with my work, without being asked!' Even if it's super negative and they say they hate my work in every way, I still kind of get a rush out of it (Unless their critique is moral rather than technical and they're saying I'm a terrible person for how I made the art, in which case it makes me very sad and I'll probably cry :'D)
That's not to say I've always taken criticism in stride though; I've definitely reacted defensively to criticism as a beginner (I think I responded to a solicited online critique with something like 'if i'm so bad then ...' (I honestly can't remember the rest of it but that's a turn of phrase I'd never use these days XD))
Yeah, I feel that too. Experience and having the tools to figure it out for myself goes a long way toward reducing the feeling of powerlessness. These days, I don't look at professionals in awe and wonder, just utterly mystified at 'how they're doing that'. I can SEE what they're doing. I can take apart the steps in my mind. Whether I can (or even want to) replicate the effects is another story, but I can at least see the pathway, and that's worth its weight in gold.
And I agree with you about the tutorials-- I don't really use or look for them much anymore either. Like... if I want to figure out how to draw something new that I've never really done before, I know I can figure it out on my own. I was fortunate enough to have teachers who made sure they were teaching me to cook, not just instructing me in specific recipes, so to speak.
In fact, more often than not, if I'm looking for art tutorials these days, it's either to get into a new medium I'm unfamiliar with (I'd probably have to use a bunch if I started doing digital work again-- but the tutorials would be 'how to use this program', not 'how to draw X'), or it's because I'm nervous about something, and I'm procrastinating.
Like, I looked up a bunch of 'how to make a webcomic' tutorials before I started my comic. All of them were either basic information I already knew so well that I could teach it (and have!), or didn't apply much to me at all (i.e. tips and tricks in various programs). But I didn't need the tutorials to give me skills or insight I didn't already have... I was looking for some 'magic secret trick' to give me the confidence I needed to start.
I've personally never understood that, I think both points of views are useful.
Wow, I'm the complete opposite of this lol
Yeah, I totally trust praise if it's given without my asking by strangers (and even sometimes people who know me), but if I ask for feedback and it's all positive I get a little skeptical XD Probably because I'm paranoid about sounding passive-aggressive all the time, so I worry that I've phrased my request in a way that sounds like I actually just want praise in the guise of looking for feedback :'D
Wait that actually makes sense now that you've explained it lol. I think most of the time, those people probably don't know what to look for to critique so they only see good in the work though.
@Scarlet_Cryptid You know what I learned to do? Stop asking for opinions from those who are unable to give constructive criticism. Not sure if you remember our convo's before, but you were the first to make me START to realize that way back on that one discord server (and I still am thankful for what all you pointed out for me!) After that, I only had more experiences that proved that notion right (well lol at least in my mind). If I didn't ask the right people, I ONLY got two types of responses, empty praise or empty criticism. Both left me feeling equally upset, guilty, ashamed, etc etc.
By this point in time, I have already established a small handful of people I trust to give insight I can utilize to better my craft, and I of course return the favors best I can from the knowledge I continue to gain over time.
So to think once more on your experiences you laid out for us, I think the same might apply to yours with your father? I mean hell I don't blame you one bit, but in my case that's the exact reason I never asked my family anything so far even after all these years - - I deep down somewhat feel I will resent the empty praise or critique I will get.
Yeah... sometime during my teen years I stopped showing my parents my art and writing, partly because I knew they wouldn't 'get' it, and partly because we didn't always see eye to eye on some of the stuff I was into at the time.
At the time, though, I was 12 or 13, and the idea that my dad, a mechanical engineer, who didn't do art, wasn't especially interested in art most of the time, and couldn't draw anything but machine parts, wouldn't really have anything especially helpful to say about art. So yeah, it was one of my earliest lessons in 'who you ask for feedback affects the kind of feedback you're going to get'.
Oh wow, this sounds very similar to my dad. He is very information-based and doesn't really have any interests in arts, creativity, or writing. Being an engineer, he instilled in us that 1.) grades were important and 2.) we should be able to take criticism.
When I felt like I did well on an assignment, as you probably did with your lion picture, my dad would likely say something like "but why isn't it insert higher grade here? " I would typically feel dejected and might even be desuaded from showing my grades or even trying in class. I am naturally smart, and that isn't to toot my own horn or anything, but I didn't need to know how to study until college. With my dad' nice lil crictism I didn't develop the need to study. I was fine with basic grades.
Another thing he would critique is tennis. He would watch us closely and critique every little thing we did wrong. My dad was often away on business trips and would be be back on the weekends to watch us (siblings and I) play in tennis tournaments. We were not bad by any means. If we won it was acceptable, but every single error would feel like the end of the world. He would say "well you shouldn't have done x thing" or "you kept doing x thing and that's what brought your game down" or "this was too high level for you" etc etc.
With those experiences, my reception to criticism is about that much as dopamine. I have depression and ADHD, so that is literally none. (Not exactly how that works but I'll take the, erm, comparison). So, when someone tries to fix something in my writing, I'll become very defensive, narrow minded, and honest to god emotional. It is like "I made this on my own, I don't want people to JUDGE me". Criticism is different from judgement, I realize. Yet, with you dad and the lion picture, I relate with my father and tennis + school.
Sorry for rant, just my pov.
Nah, it's cool, that's what this thread is for: people to share their stories about/relationship with criticism, and possibly think about it in a new light, or see how other people have grappled with it over the years.
I read it and I don't remember it being irrelevant or narcissistic:
^^^
(I feel compelled to also add that I see nothing wrong with being narcissistic if it's relevant and doesn't put other people down :P)
My parents were completely in the praise/hang pictures on the fridge camp so the first critique I really encountered was in high school art classes. I kind of worshipped my drawing teacher there (thinking back he had some opinions that were old fashioned but overall) he was extremely skilled and always clear that critique was a sign of respect, which I internalized. He was rigid/traditional but learned a lot from him including how to take some extremely blunt criticism.
I did major in art in college and by that point had become a weird combination of snooty and insecure (
) which combined with being really really shy meant I didn't interact with the other art students much. Seriously lucked out with teachers again though - our senior studio instructor was just extremely good at getting to know all the students and give us super personalized critique targeting what we were trying to accomplish.
Coming back to art after a lot of years with some more life experience behind me, I'm glad that sharp or unsolicited criticism doesn't sting (thanks, Tim 
) but I'd much rather give/receive the second type of critique - where the critic takes time trying to understand what the goals are before giving advice/opinion and keep it focused on things the artist can do right away to move in that direction. There's only so much improving a person can do at a time so why not go for the highest returns on effort? Especially in something like comics vs one-off illustrations, where goals can be competing/confused - trying to make a popular comic? Trying to make money? Trying to make something as polished as possible within your own artistic vision? Trying to get better at x-y-z art skill for its own sake? I think it's important to be clear on the goal as it makes no sense to point someone towards drilling anatomy lessons if the issue is that their goal is to make a popular comic but they're writing in a super niche genre.
Regarding whether people are "qualified" to give critique hmmm. I certainly pay more attention to artists I consider skilled/experienced (or artists over non-artists) but honestly it's so hard to be objective about my own work that I find it useful to hear opinions, especially critical opinions, from anyone. If one person sees something a certain way, it's probably not a unique viewpoint, so I'm happy to hear the view from another angle. Doesn't mean I have to do anything about it at all or right away. I get how that could be unpleasant noise for other folks but for me it does feel useful. Being in a place where I'm confident of my own limitations, constraints and goals helps me sort comments into things I address right away, things I chew on, or things I file away/perhaps ignore.
Edit: my instinct when provided baked goods is to shower the baker with praise, assuming it's delicious I'm really not looking for things to nitpick 🤣.
This is a good point. Not only should an offered critique take into consideration an artist's skill level, but their goals in a situation matter a lot, too. Like, if someone were to tell me that I 'should' add more detail to the backgrounds in my comic because they don't like how I simplify things sometimes, that suggestion ('put more detail into your backgrounds!') is in conflict with my goals: Put out a page a week without burning myself out, at a quality level that is both acceptable (for me), and sustainable. Leaning into more detail makes the 'sustainable' part impossible.
The critique wouldn't be without meaning, though. If someone doesn't think my backgrounds are working, their suggested fix might not be useful, but the fact that something isn't working (for them) is still relevant. At that point, I can decide how to fix the issue -- or whether to bother -- in a way that works for me and my goals.
(Fwiw, though, that's a hypothetical example. Most people who see my backgrounds say I'm insane. XD)
This has so much heart and vulnerability and shiz, thanks for sharing Scarlet!
My family has always been supportive of my art and I didn't get much in the form of critique outside of I like it or I don't outside of my ain't who would occasionally ask me why something I drew looks the way it did which would make me think a bit, but usually didn't go to deep as she would then say something like "Did you really have to draw ALL the wrinkles." lol.
I didn't start entering the realm of critique till highschool, but even then most of the words said about my work were flattery save from my art teacher who gave wonderful direction and flattery haha, but stayed within the confines of where the class as a whole generally was during scheduled times, but would go more in-depth with me after hours and I will always appreciate her for that. Even when she was helping me to improve I never felt like she was making me feel like garbage, or how I was drawing/coloring was wrong, but considering I was her fav, it would have been hard for me to think that.
College though... WHHOOO CHILE. I majored in studio art and minored in graphic design since the college I choose for a well-rounded education didn't offer anything in the sequential art fields. You wanna talk about a polarizing experience, yooooo. Being up in painting II rendering my heavily illustrated style with thick line art in front of a classically trained artist and then going to Graphic Design II just had my head split in so many ways.
In the studio, I would have critique on any life study sketches saying they looked too heavy-handed thanks to my thick usage of contour on my subjects, and then go to Design Class and get commended for my bold use of line work to illustrate my purpose. Then back to the studio to paint or add color and the professor would go ham bc my pieces looked to unnatural and the way I rendered lighting was too surreal. I mean I knew my glass bottles didn't look like the glass bottles on the table, but when I ran it through my brain filter and then hand, my shiz always came out trippyer looking then what was right in front of me. Then I'd go to design class and pull out my tablet to color in photoshop (very simply I might add bc I was just learning digital coloring.) And being held as brilliant.
For a while I tried to adjust to go with more natural looking renderings in Studio, but then I'd run into a contrast problem between form and background and everything just looked dull. Once we started doing round table critiques in Studio, It was interesting to hear what other artist in class thought of my work vs the professor who was genuinely surprised to find that most folks preferred how I colored before trying to change despite it not looking much like a faithful rendition.
I overall enjoyed the Studio (and design, though it was a lot of self-taught learning since the professor didn't know exactly how to give me what I was looking for but looked into ways to help. She provided the space for me to try and figure it out with lots of resources. ) once I and the professor came to an understanding of what I wanted to do with my art (even if they didn't see it as art).
I didn't get what I wanted out of Studio Art since I assumed an art professor would just instinctively know how to guide me over realizing that disciplines and experience also matter when seeking fine-tuned critique. It wasn't their fault bc I majored in traditional art despite not wanting to be a traditional artist. I was just ignorant of the differences. I still learned a valuable lesson about making assumptions based on fields of study that seem close.
College is where I learned that art and design are not the same and illustration exists in a middle ground that benefits from both (but like don't tell the studio art folks that you want to combine your senior show to be an exhibit of how you combined both hahah).
All this to say, a critique can be mega helpful or mega hurtful if the context isn't in the right place. Asking a studio artist to critique me got me vastly different results than when I asked a graphic designer. Both had valid things to say, but one made more sense to me than the other, but It wasn't until I started hanging out with other comic artists/enthusiasts at or above my level of knowledge and expertise did I started getting the kind of feedback that's helpful to what I'm trying to do.
TLDR
Context and having an open dialogue with someone whose skill/knowledge you trust is the gold star for getting helpful advice and instruction. Otherwise, you can get expert knowledge that doesn't apply and only serves to confuse/stifle you. Or worse. intense criticism that does nothing but makes you feel like you're doing everything wrong because they don't understand anything about comics :V.
29 days later
closed Sep 8, '22