Did you know? Clothing and Textiles

[DokiDokiTsuna]

The previous trivia topic on death and injury is still going strong, but I'd like to introduce another one.

Today's topic is Clothing and Textiles...everything there is to know about making and caring for cloth and apparel: weaving, spinning, knitting, sewing, laundering, etc. As before, you can ask things, and/or you can share things that you already know.

Unfortunately, I have no knowledge in this area...I mean, I know enough to get by, and I know a few things from experience (I used to crochet, and I know how to sew (and theoretically make clothes)) but I don't really have 'fun facts' that are information-dense and easily shared...

So, here are some questions to get the ball rolling in a direction that will be helpful to writers:

1. Which materials are the weakest? Which are the strongest?
2. Which materials are the most/least expensive or desirable? Why?
3. What kinds of materials can be spun into thread?
4. Which animals can be sheared for wool, and how often? How large a flock do you need to have a steady supply?
5. How long does it take to weave a piece of cloth?
6. How do you make and maintain leather? Which animal skins give the best material, and why?

*Just FYI: it's cool if you wanna research and find the answers to these questions, and it's also cool if you don't. The original intent of the 'trivia topics' is to share stuff you just happen to know already, but if you have time to surf the internet, by all means. ^^

[HGohwell]

How do you make and maintain leather? Which animal skins give the best material, and why?

Leather is actually a pain in the ass to maintain properly if you intent to use it day to day, especially in wetter, cooler climates. Much like human skin, it dries out. Anyone who's done anything with horses knows pretty well you should be maintaining leather tack with wax, this actually applies to most leather products from shoes to jackets to couches. Depending on the wax/soap, some require lathering on the leather and washing off, some can be applied straight on and just buffed in. This is especially important after it's got wet like being rained on and then letting them dry. Anyone' who's had decent leather gloves has probably had them turn brittle and flakey and fall apart, especially at the knuckles because we don't think about it for clothes. The wax usually contains things like beeswax and lanolin, which is an oil comes from sheep's wool (any wool really but mostly sheep) in the process that essentially involves boiling it out of fresh wool and helps in waterproofing and keeping things soft (also used in some beauty products for this reason).

Lanolin is also a pretty common thing to be allergic too, and is often what causes a wool allergy, especially when it's ben reapplied to wool to help waterproof it. So some people need to watch the leather as well.

[kmlangleyauthor]

Just some super basic info:

• Knitting can have some extremely intricate designs.

• Crochet >usually< is more open than knitting.

• Hand-sewing takes a good bit of time.

• There’s a wide variety of natural dyes, but many of them are regional which is why some colors are more prevalent in certain areas.

[DasIstWunderblyat]

It took me by surprise it was a whole ass blocky fabric piece, says a lot about the quality of fabrics in the past.

[silverraven0]

Want to know how people dye their clothes purple on the middle age?

[Legendofgenii]

@migxmeg Oooooooh!!!

[migxmeg]

@Legendofgenii aaaah it's the inspiration for our comic lmao . Better watch this to make sure things look right whenever we see the process!

[carreonaiwille]

A bit off-topic, but it reminds me of how we'd use curtains as costumes for last-minute,zero budget, no preparation, class plays. This would have been useful.

[feuersichel]

Uuh yes. I own some authentic medival leather shoes (I'm in one of those groups) and have to maintain them like hell. Then when I apply some nice leather-oil: SLUUURP and it's gone :'D

For warmth fur of course helps but it is quite a prozess to get from animal to cloth. I have A felt cape and it keeps me warm for quite some time. Even keeps off some of the rain.

Linen cloth are actually pretty nice to wear. They have a surprising ability to keep warm or cold. The stiff form can be a bit unconfortable though.

[CosmicLeon]

Which materials are the weakest? old fabric. as the material age, they become much easier to tear and rip apart. new fabric, regardless of kind tend to be much stronger.

Which are the strongest? uh. leather is the toughest, and most difficult to manage.

Which materials are the most/least expensive or desirable? I find the muslin is the cheapest fabric to acquire from a fabric store. Its a little thin, but if you sew clothes with it, I would wear a tank under, unless you have multiple layers of a sark color. Muslin is very easy to get in just about any color, and it slightly stiff so it is easy to sew with. You can get in in just about any color you want which makes it easy for color matching for cosplays. Muslin had very little strech so it can be a bit difficult if you done sew your clothes to the right size. I personally like knit fabric better. Its softer and has a better flow in the air, which makes it look really cool if you make a light trailed coat with it. It's colors are also solid, so I don't need to worry about how sheer the fabric is. It has excellent strech so if your project is a little small it can be forgiving. It also doesn't frey, but I advise hemming the edges anyways so that they don't roll up on you, and have a cleaner edge. With that said if you are looking to make a taller, still collar for example, you will need to use some kind of backing to keep it upright. but i find if you double up the fabric it can stand up for about 2.5 ins with out too much issue. Knit is a bit more expensive, and can be a little harder to get the color you want, but I personally think the investment is worth it. Satin is another great fabric, but be warned, you must hem it or it will frey like the unraveling treads of reality. to prevent this, you can hem, or cut it with a hot tool that will melt the edges. .I forget what the tool is called but it does help. (I would still hem regardless though) Satin is very slippery to work with, so pins are a must, and use more then you think you should. The other fabrics I will sometimes skip or skimp on the pins, but do not do that with satin unless you want a headache. Satin feels really good on the skin, buts its not a real breathable fabric, so keep that in mind. Its a little more advanced to work on, and remember that it has no stretch so can can be unforgiving if you sew your fabric wrong. (i have learned the hard way ) but it does make a really nice liner or accent to a piece.

Which animals can be sheared for wool, and how often? sheep and alpaca, and how often I don't know. There are also plant alternatives as well if you want.

How long does it take to weave a piece of cloth? depends on how big you are making it and how big your thread material is.

How do you make and maintain leather? tanning leather is quiet a process in which you will need to soak it in tannin or urine for a while. (you can make tannin with other material I think but you will have to look it up) then you need to stretch it out and scrape off any fat you missed before you added it to the tanning solution. then you let it dry and salt it I believe. After it is dry what do you want to use it for? if you want it for clothing, I highly suggest breaking it in, and bending if to help soften the material. Also should be noted wither of not you want to keep the fur of the pelt on the skin or not. But when working with leather, know that is it very thick, and a normal sewing machine might not be able to work with it. if that is the case you can acquire a leather sewing machine (or and industrial one) with is much stronger and will work better. you can also soak leather in water to make it more malleable if you intend on making it into shapes for makes, shoes, or armor. (of what ever other use you can think of)

Which animal skins give the best material, and why? as far an animal skins go, rabbit is nice and soft, and deer will give you lots of surface area. though deer fur is not very soft. beaver hide has thick fur, so best to keep it on. I don't have experience with much else. My dad was really into trying to make his own leather so, I have a little knowledge about this, but I am no expert. Though it it possible to buy deer hind already tanned, which is actually pretty soft and easy enough to work with. I think i was able to sew 3 layers of if on my normal machine. (though my singer machine is an old tank, and newer machine might be more finicky. )

[DeformedSunflower]

Which materials are the most/least expensive or desirable? Why?

I think desirability depends on what you use the fabric for. For example, if we're talking about suits, wool is the 'standard' fabric. It's also much more expensive than cotton, polyester, or blend, and is very itchy. So if you want to get a wool suit, but want it to be cheaper and less itchy, get a wool blend instead (they're usually wool and polyester blend).

((I'm not going to go into the possible environmental effects blend fabric can create, but I'm assuming you don't just wear your suits for a year then throw it away))

I'm not very sure why people seek wool when they're making suits; perhaps they thought expensive=bougie, or because people before them wear wool suits, so they just follow suit (eeeeyy), or maybe wool lasts longer.

All I know is that wool is expensive, itchy, hot, and can't be machine-washed.

[darthmongoose]

There are certain clothing technologies that are simple enough that they could have been invented at practically any point after the invention of basic tools, but which were only invented pretty recently in human history because nobody thought of them. Examples are:

Fitted clothing: For most of history, most civilisations approached clothing like: Make a big baggy garment or even just get one large sheet of fabric, maybe with a head hole, and wrap and tie it around yourself with belts and sashes. Old clothing had much fewer pieces making up the pattern than a lot of modern clothes, and they weren't cut to fit a person's figure until we got to probably around the renaissance era, at least in the west.
Fun fact: The Romans hated trousers/pants, they thought they were for women and barbarians and that real strong manly roman men wore a tunic and bare legs (so basically belted t-shirt dresses).
Other fun fact: In the medieval times, it was fashionable for men to have a silhouette that to modern people looks "girly", with his clothes belted at the natural waist for a slim, hourglass figure, a nice full, pleated tunic to show off that he could afford lots of fabric, and stockings showing off his shapely legs, then nice little shoes. Oh and a hat or hood, you wouldn't be seen dead without one! The armour of the time tends to reflect this silhouette too, and Fantasy series often try to make clothing conform to a more modern "masculine" silhouette, with trousers, a jacket, big boots and a lower waist. This is historically inaccurate, but all these things could have been made that with with the tech of the time, it's just not what the style was, so it works for a Fantasy setting with medieval tech, but would be incorrect for a real period story.

Buttons as fastenings: People were stitching buttons, like bits of shell or wood etc. onto their clothes for years and years (like there are examples from as far back as 5000 years ago!), but for some reason, nobody came up with the idea of using them as fastenings til the 13th Century in Germany! Some bright spark realised you could make holes and pop the button through, and suddenly with this, clothes could be much more form-fitting because you could get your hands, head and arm through a hole they could fit through, then button it up around the opening.
The "dress shirt" which is a shirt that modern people would recognise as a shirt or blouse, with buttons all the way up the front and a collar permanently attached, is also a pretty recent invention. My mum talks about remembering her great grandad wearing a shirt that only had buttons up near the neck hole and with a collar as a separate piece. That gives a good sense of how recent we're talking.

Fancy knitting: So we know that knitting has been around a long time (Archaeologists have found ancient Egyptian knitted socks), but why are none of those Celts or Vikings wearing fancy cable knits or rib-knit jumpers? You'd think they'd have loved them. Well... nobody thought of it! Cable Knit was invented in Ireland in the 20th Century to make extra thick, extra warm clothing, with the added advantage that you can put cool decorative textures into the garment.

These are all techniques that could have existed earlier, so it's completely within reason in a Fantasy world, that people could wear garments that look like a modern plaid shirt and jeans (but not necessarily skinny jeans, which require elasticated fabrics), and ugg boots or big cable knit cardigans if people just thought of those things earlier in that universe. Neat, huh?

[cherrystark]

I love your facts @darthmongoose. Clothing has such an interesting history. My contribution, if you want your T-Shirts and other knits to feel softer, wash them in vinegar. It's great if you have skin sensitivity issues too.

Also the "men's suit" has not changed for roughly the last 200 years. The only variations have been the width of the lapels and the general "frilliness" of the neckwear. A lot of costumers will go to thrift stores when they need a cheap suit and with some basic alternations, it can fit any "modern" decade.

[pastelchan]

thread is like a month old, but I would like to add some bits and pieces as a seamstress.

Which materials are the weakest? Which are the strongest? - silk when wet is pretty weak. this is also why you shouldn't wash it (at least not in a machine and preferably not too often). a few of the stronger options would be cotton and linen. hisotrically speaking they are the prefered materials for the working class (though cotton became popular later)

Which materials are the most/least expensive or desirable? Why? - most expensive: wools and silks, or very specialized modern fabrics. things made from like alpaca wool, merino, high quality silk (without the bumps) and stuff like vegan leather (made from paper, mushrooms or even pinable fibers) are expensive AF. Most leathers too. cheapest stuff is simple cottons and most polyester fabrics.

What kinds of materials can be spun into thread? - animal fibers (think wool), plant fibers (think cotton, linen (flax) and hennep) and manmade fibers (those are mostly made from oil, you're basically wearing dinosaurs)

Which animals can be sheared for wool, and how often? How large a flock do you need to have a steady supply? - you can practically use any fiber from an animal with fur. there's stuff made from alpaca, camel, horse and there are even some people needlefelting from their cat's hair. how often depends on climate and type of animal, but most sheep are sheared once a year IIRC. flock size (I googled this) for sheep in the UK is on average 422 (and as sheep are mostly kept for their wool, I take this would be as close as an answer as I can)

How long does it take to weave a piece of cloth? - depends on the size, thickness of the thread and the skills of the person. also depends whether it's handmade or made by machine. those huge machine you got in China are probably really fast, whole handmade stuff takes longer.

How do you make and maintain leather? Which animal skins give the best material, and why? - well, an animal is basically skinned for their leather, as leather is literally their skin. I would take cows give the best leather, as they are the most common.

some other random stuff:

• Satin isn't a fabric perse, but a weave. meaning you can even make a satin fabric out of cotton or silk. but most satins are made of polyester.
• best silk is made of ahum cooked silkworm, that way they let loose the threads of their coccoon easier without snaps. from all scrap silk you get the lower grade silks, which often include the bumpier, slubby silks most people know.
• corsets were worn by women for quite a long period of time. even as early as the 16th century. but before halfway the 19th century, they were called 'stays' instead of corsets. the difference is that stays were meant to support the bust and provide a strong base for the heavy skirts of that time, while corsets were mostly made to give the illusion of a small waist. that small waist was even enhanced by bust and hip padding, and on old pictures women's waists were often 'photoshopped' (something something with blacking out the lighter parts).
• stay/corsets were made by men for a very long time. this was because the boning material was some sturdy stuff. boning could be: reed, whalebone and in the Victorian period steel. modern replacement for whalebone is German synthetic whalebone, and it's easy and pleasant stuff to work with.

[pastelchan]

and I'm gonna info dump some more lol.

• when cooking on open fire, women used to wear wool skirts, as they are the safest option when it comes to natural materials. wool is naturally flame retardant (it doesn't prevent burning entirely, but it slows considerably). I once came across a post of a re-enactment where a woman was saved by wearing a wool skirt. it only had a hole and no other real damage.
• clothing sizing has considerably (especially for women) changed/enlargened in the past few decades. this also has an effect on patterns for sewing, as those sizes aren't the same sizes as you can find in store. that's why it's always wise to measure yourself and remember those numbers when you start sewing.
• talking about patterns: if you can't get your patterns for very very cheap, consider tracing your pattern pieces onto tracing/pattern paper instead of cutting them out. this also makes it easier to make adjustments.
• and continuing on adjustments: make a quick trial piece of cheap but similar fabric of the fabric you'll eventually need. this way you won't only get familiar with the sewing techniques, but also helps you determine what changes your piece needs.
• before pockets were sewn in, women wore a set of separate pockets around their waist, hidden under layers of skirts that had slits in the side seams. they could easily hold your coin purse, sewing set, fan and some perfume/makeup (aka bigger than modern pockets). also, women didn't wear any panties under their dresses, only somewhere early/halfway the 19th century they started to wear types of pants with slits underneath.
• most Victorian skirts that had a train, also had a type of detachable 'duster' (balayeuse) often made of organza, to prevent the hem from getting dirty. the balayeuse then got washed instead of the skirt.
• before the discovery of some very bright, very poisonous dyes (like arsenic), almost everything was naturally dyed. One of the most precious dyes was a type of purple, which was made of a type of shell IIRC, and was often reserved for royals and later higher class too.
• the iconic robe a la chemise Marie Antoinette used to wear was based on the standard nightgown/undergown (chemise) and was actually rather scandalous for the time, because it was practically one or two layers of very thin material. this style (and the regency style after that) caused quite an increase in pneumonia cases in the winter.
• a robe a la francaise or a court gown (18th century)could have a skirt as wide as 5 meters across. probably the reason why French doors were invented.
• speaking about court gowns: they were not up to date with trends. as day to day rich people dresses, which could lead to some hilarious designs:
  
  

I could probably go on an on about this stuff, so if you need anything related to this or sewing, feel free to ask.