Discussion about writing gaming systems in novels/comics

[BaguetteAndWine]

Hello everyone!

I'm curious about how you guys would go on about writing gaming systems (experts readers in litRPG welcome too!) in your stories? Do you guys have any tips & tricks to offer? Is there any mistakes to avoid you would have loved to know when you started writing?

From what I know, the best gaming systems out there walk a very fine line between simplicity and complexity. For example did you add the full infos like Name, class, lvl, XP, Titles, stats, magic/skills, inventory, etc? Or keep it more simple? Somewhere in-between? Does it concern only your MC or did you bother to develop monsters and other characters?

Personnaly I have created an excel sheet to automaticaly add experience and stat points in my chapters. Because keeping track of everything was way too overwelming! I had to create an XP curve to know how much XP per lvl I would need to be realistic. I also created guidelines for how much XP quests and monsters would give to my character.

I'm still not sure if I want to fully implement the full treatment to every character in my world, it looks way too complicated. For now only my MC has a full character sheet and when she meets a monster or character they have a reduced sheet. (It does kinda work story wise as MC is the only one possessing a gaming system in a fantasy world)

TLDR: What makes a good gaming system according to you?

[Oriflamme]

What’s the best way to integrate a game system in Litrpg is simple:
don’t

Things like health point, stamina, experience point are all abstractions of all the complex things a living being experiences to make it all easier to model interaction for game designers, and to quickly communicate the relevant information to the player. They are the methodes games create, conflict, tension, and progression. To add these elements to the story would be like also including prose describing each scene to a movie along with subtitles.

I really don’t like how rpg mechanics have become the lazy shortcut moving the plot along. You need to show character growth, make numbers go. A new ability, have the character unlock a new skill from a skill three. Can think of a way for a plot relevant objects to fall into the character’s hand, add loot boxes or a virtual item shop.

I also find it kinda fashy how it boils down the existence of peoples to just numbers and characteristics on a spreadsheet.

Aside from objecting to the whole concept, I would narrow down and focus on a few key stats that are relevant to the reader(In-world you can add as many extra stats as you want). The more you complicate things, the more you risk confusing your audience. Avoid using it as a way to force your character into the path needed for the story to proceed. Plot progression should happen by the actions of the character, not the guiding hand of the author. Finally, Litrpg elements can quickly become meaningless if the numbers escalates too quickly beyond the scale of human understanding(I think anything beyond 1000 is just noise).

Good luck with your creative endeavour, and all of this is just my opinion. Feel free to ignore it since I’m probably not part of the target audience.

[jwabeasley]

I'll preface by saying that I'm not a huge fan of the litRPG genre. About the most of that sort of thing I can take is that shown in Fallout Equestria where Littlepip gets a perk every chapter or so but they are all in line with her growth already.

One big weakness of the litRPG genre is that there is no inherent correlation between how a character looks and their skills. A nearly-naked twiggish teenager can overpower a big musclebound guy because the teen has a higher STR stat, or a character can look like they're getting stabbed in the eyeballs 1000 times but then actually be fine because their level is higher. That sort of thing makes it very difficult to communicate character attributes, threat, or stakes to the reader.

If you plan on writing a litRPG story, I hope you find an elegant way to address that core challenge.

[justincarbunkle]

I don't give a shit what stat numbers your characters have. It's hard enough to draw a readers attention toward the basics (story, character). Even if it's based on a game I played, if I'm not playing the game, why should I care? Why should I expend effort to know the attack stat of 7 characters between every chapter. Stats that will probably not matter/be fudged anyway when you actually write the story beats that happen.

If you want to write complicated stuff about your world, write stuff like lore, character backstories, world history/geography. Even that, most of it you'd be better to leave out of your story, it's more to help the author engross themselves in the world/help you understand how to make the story appear fleshed out. If you want someone to want to read your story, only tell what is necessary, what is interesting.

If you still want to write stat numbers, just make a video game.

[DiegoPalacios]

I think i would work it similarly to any power system. Focus on some few core principles and dig deeper into that.

You don't need a long winded explanation of stats and levels. As long as it's clear what a character can or can't do, you are off to a great start.

Levels can be a guideline on a character's raw power, but remember that sometimes a weaker character can make up for it with a clever plan, numeric advantage or a clever build.

If the game mechanics don't have a narrative impact they might not be necessary to detail them. But if characters are affected by them, like being forced to take turns, being tied to a class and its abilities or anything related to the game setting, it might be relevant.

[Algae]

Hello! For me as a reader, personally, I would prefer if a transmigration story where the character is sent to a game world to not have any UI, no system box, but rather the game world becomes real, if that makes sense. But obviously there's plenty who would enjoy a game system like that :] imo, if you want to do that, keep it simple, but interesting. For example, have different stats from the usual ones, instead of:
● Health
● Attack power
● Speed
Pick a few attributes most important and specific to your own story, that you think will affect your story the most, for example a story with guns would have "Aim accuracy" as a stat and probably no "dodge" stat, because you can't dodge bullets (if characters r human of course) for my novel, that translated roughly to something like this:
● Fear
● Experience
● Strength
● Violence
● Sociability
Which are all things that affect my character's actions and how likely they are to succeed in something they attempt. Overall I'd find it interesting if there was at least one unique stat in the game system. If Exp bothers you too much consider taking it off altogether, like take off levels completely, only keep stats, which can be inscreased slowly through training, or maybe its the stats the would have levels, because in the end its the attributes and abilities that we care about, not necessarily the number of the character's level. That's what I think, hope it helps, good luck!

[Algae]

What I also think would help, is to have a visual for the stats! I think it helps to not bore the reader, and make them actually interested in checking out the stats, personally if I was faced with a block of numbers I would skip it. Here's what I did, but you don't need to draw the character. In short I think a visual UI would be nice :]

[Algae]

You could have it in a "loading bar" style like I did, or a pentagon style, its best not to have more than 5 attributes. I absolutely love how the Golden Kamuy manga went about it, they had 4 basic stats common between all characters, but one stat unique to each, which is super interesting, and made me want to read all the stats to see each character's special attribute.

[Algae]

Oh and one more thing (sorry about the spam I'm aware this might not even be the kind of advice you're looking for) using a visual chart rather than numbers will make it easier for you too! You won't have to calculate it precisely anymore, and your readers won't be able to "metagame" it, you'll have more leeway since its not too precise.

[BaguetteAndWine]

Hello!

First I'd like to preface this anwser by saying thanks to all participants in this conversation and sorry for not replying earlier. I've been busy at work in addition to preparing for my honeymoon so it kind of slipped out of my mind!

Anyway, I see that the consensus is either DON'T do it or keep it to a minimum. Arguments are (in random order and not limited to):

I really don’t like how rpg mechanics have become the lazy shortcut moving the plot along.

I do agree that some writings of gaming systems exist solely for the benefit of following a popular trend. But litRPGs have not become popular without reason. As you said earlier in your reply, litRPG use gaming methods to create conflict, tension and progression which can be done with regular storytelling. However, what this particular writing style mirror from games (imho) is that sense of accomplishment and the spike in dopamine you get from trad RPGs.
Now I join you on the second part of your answer. I agree that writing systems should only be used to move the plot forward. Not adding too much unnecessary complexity is the hard part, hence my creating of this thread.

One big weakness of the litRPG genre is that there is no inherent correlation between how a character looks and their skills.

That's a big "issue" in the whole fantasy genre in general. Species add to the mix. An elven or vampire girl can absolutely reckt a grown man. Think of Buffy the vampire slayer (yeah I'm old) where a vampire girl will easily kill a grown man and in turn be killed by Buffy a skinny schoolgirl. Or Arwen in LOTR, an universe male dominant. C18 in DBZ (btw can we say that DBZ is a precursor of litRPG with the famous "It's over 9000!"? )
My point is that litterature didn't wait for litRPGs to represent overpowered little girls. For me as long as the character is in line with the lore the author created, it is fine.

I don't give a shit what stat numbers your characters have. It's hard enough to draw a readers attention toward the basics (story, character). Even if it's based on a game I played, if I'm not playing the game, why should I care? Why should I expend effort to know the attack stat of 7 characters between every chapter. Stats that will probably not matter/be fudged anyway when you actually write the story beats that happen.

That's the whole point of my thread. I agree that too much details is no good. However what I want to know is where to put the line between realism (having a logical numbers progression) and ease to read/follow.

If you still want to write stat numbers, just make a video game.

Video games use litterature for their plot, why can't litterature use video games to enrich itself?

Levels can be a guideline on a character's raw power, but remember that sometimes a weaker character can make up for it with a clever plan, numeric advantage or a clever build.

If the game mechanics don't have a narrative impact they might not be necessary to detail them. But if characters are affected by them, like being forced to take turns, being tied to a class and its abilities or anything related to the game setting, it might be relevant.

So it is a bit of a spoiler but who cares. I planned for my character to use a certain build, using up all of her stat points. She then fight a strong enemy and realise she should have kept points available to adapt her strategy when needed. She will do that from that point onward. Then she meets another strong enemy but will be overpowered and will not have time to add her points until a certain thing happens and she finally adds her points, effectively shifting the flow of the fight. Would that count with what you are suggesting?

Hello! For me as a reader, personally, I would prefer if a transmigration story where the character is sent to a game world to not have any UI, no system box, but rather the game world becomes real, if that makes sense. But obviously there's plenty who would enjoy a game system like that :]

What an interesting point. Unfortunately I'm too far into the story to shift to such a system but I have plans for a follow up story where it could make sense. Concerning the visual parts, I have been trying to do that on my first chapter but I suck at photo editing and need to watch youtube tutos for every modifications I try to make

To finish this, I understant that tapas is not the best target audience for litRPG. I've got a somewhat better feedback on another website I'm not gonna explicitely mention. But the community in Tapas looks really nice and caring so I wanted to also share my story here.

[AmysGames]

I don't read a lot of litRPG, so maybe this is a hot take, but I feel like in order to write game mechanics into a story, you need to understand game design.

In most video games, the game mechanics are largely disconnected from the plot. Things like menus, stats, and tutorials where characters give clunky dialogue like "press X to jump!" are considered to be "non-canon." Sometimes there are intersections, like characters gaining a new ability during an emotional moment, but those are a rare exception. Even in games where the game mechanics are super relevant to the plot (e.g. Undertale or DDLC), there are still certain things that you kind of have to ignore.

I think this is why people are saying that focusing overmuch on stats is a little immersion-breaking. Most players don't care that much about stats, and those that do are high-level gamers who have probably played the game 1000 times and aren't paying much attention to the story anymore. If you're adding game mechanics to your story, you should be very sure that they're actually adding something to the story, and aren't just there for "hey look! It's a video game!" points.

[DiegoPalacios]

So it is a bit of a spoiler but who cares. I planned for my character to use a certain build, using up all of her stat points. She then fight a strong enemy and realise she should have kept points available to adapt her strategy when needed. She will do that from that point onward. Then she meets another strong enemy but will be overpowered and will not have time to add her points until a certain thing happens and she finally adds her points, effectively shifting the flow of the fight. Would that count with what you are suggesting?

That's a creative take on using the system. I would say that it counts.

[jwabeasley]

That's a big "issue" in the whole fantasy genre in general. Species add to the mix. An elven or vampire girl can absolutely reckt a grown man. Think of Buffy the vampire slayer (yeah I'm old) where a vampire girl will easily kill a grown man and in turn be killed by Buffy a skinny schoolgirl. Or Arwen in LOTR, an universe male dominant. C18 in DBZ (btw can we say that DBZ is a precursor of litRPG with the famous "It's over 9000!"? )My point is that litterature didn't wait for litRPGs to represent overpowered little girls. For me as long as the character is in line with the lore the author created, it is fine.

Oh, agreed. While when Buffy came out, the idea of the blonde victim actually being a badass was a novelty. These days it is so bad that if I see a big muscley guy win a fight against a twiggy girl in fiction, I am very surprised. Same with the Damsel in Distress trope, it's been decades since I've seen it played straight with a female damsel, long enough that if I saw it happen in a modern film I would be very surprised.

The powerlevels of DBZ were a huge mistake and were a serious anchor around that series. They were supposed to be a red herring, that the villains were wrong that some beings just have inherent power levels that can be easily assessed at a distance, but fans ended up latching onto them and they wound up being a ridiculous shortcut. The Cell saga shows this where a character is stronger than the other one so they can just stand still and take any number of hits while being unfazed, but then the opponent powers up and now it's the same thing but the other direction. It was cool once or twice, but on the fifth or so time in a battle it gets pretty boring - nobody can win by a clever move or a silly fluke like they did in early DB. They can only win by finding ways to increase their abstract power level somehow.

[BaguetteAndWine]

In most video games, the game mechanics are largely disconnected from the plot. Things like menus, stats, and tutorials where characters give clunky dialogue like "press X to jump!" are considered to be "non-canon."

So, in which case do you think it's ok to use these non canon elements? Main quest and rewards giving? Items descriptions? Character info? I'm obviously not thinking of menus or tutos.

Sometimes there are intersections, like characters gaining a new ability during an emotional moment, but those are a rare exception. Even in games where the game mechanics are super relevant to the plot (e.g. Undertale or DDLC), there are still certain things that you kind of have to ignore.

Agreed, this would feel like plot armor if used too much. Perhaps unlocking a new class/ability once in the story (maybe a later chapter?) There are a few games that introduce new games mechanics very well through their stories. I'm thinking of xenoblade 2 when Mythra awakens. Rhinoa from FF8 awakens angel wings late in the story.

I think this is why people are saying that focusing overmuch on stats is a little immersion-breaking. Most players don't care that much about stats, and those that do are high-level gamers who have probably played the game 1000 times and aren't paying much attention to the story anymore. If you're adding game mechanics to your story, you should be very sure that they're actually adding something to the story, and aren't just there for "hey look! It's a video game!" points.

If you may read my answer to @DiegoPalacios , I think I'm already adressing this concern.

That's a creative take on using the system. I would say that it counts.

Thanks! In your opinion, are there any other methods to implement a system in smart ways? You talked about clever plan/build.

Oh, agreed. While when Buffy came out, the idea of the blonde victim actually being a badass was a novelty. These days it is so bad that if I see a big muscley guy win a fight against a twiggy girl in fiction, I am very surprised. Same with the Damsel in Distress trope, it's been decades since I've seen it played straight with a female damsel, long enough that if I saw it happen in a modern film I would be very surprised.

I promise to include a big muscley guy and make him win As for the Damsel in distress trope, don't blame me, blame modern times! Disney was king in that aera but completely shifted to the strong heroine narative. I can't blame them for puting women in a stronger position.

The powerlevels of DBZ were a huge mistake and were a serious anchor around that series. They were supposed to be a red herring, that the villains were wrong that some beings just have inherent power levels that can be easily assessed at a distance, but fans ended up latching onto them and they wound up being a ridiculous shortcut. The Cell saga shows this where a character is stronger than the other one so they can just stand still and take any number of hits while being unfazed, but then the opponent powers up and now it's the same thing but the other direction. It was cool once or twice, but on the fifth or so time in a battle it gets pretty boring - nobody can win by a clever move or a silly fluke like they did in early DB. They can only win by finding ways to increase their abstract power level somehow.

I definitvely agree when you say that DB had much better fights (and imho, better story too). But I'm not sure that the fault lies with the powerlevels. DBZ has always been a story about progression and surpassing oneself. Powerlevels monitors are just the result of wanting to show their progress in numbers. Even without those, the fights would have been the same.

[AmysGames]

So, in which case do you think it's ok to use these non canon elements? Main quest and rewards giving? Items descriptions? Character info? I'm obviously not thinking of menus or tutos.

I think it's more about frequency tbh. Like if a stat window shows up for every new character, I could see it getting a little annoying, but it could be used to highlight the fact that a certain character is unusually strong.

If you may read my answer to @DiegoPalacios , I think I'm already adressing this concern.

tbh I was just giving my general thoughts and not critiquing your series in particular Your idea does sound like a pretty creative use of the game mechanics!

[BaguetteAndWine]

not critiquing your series in particular

No worries, I didn't take your answer for a critique!

I think it's more about frequency tbh. Like if a stat window shows up for every new character, I could see it getting a little annoying, but it could be used to highlight the fact that a certain character is unusually strong.

That's an interesting point. When to use character stats window is my biggest nightmare
I could add them only for some strong characters to highlight their strengh as you proposed and as for the others, a simple description when it's needed (eg. important characters)

[jwabeasley]

I promise to include a big muscley guy and make him win As for the Damsel in distress trope, don't blame me, blame modern times! Disney was king in that aera but completely shifted to the strong heroine narative. I can't blame them for puting women in a stronger position.

Yeah, it pains me to see Disney kowtow so much to what was always a bad faith critique of their older films. The only 'damsel in distress' in classic Disney canon that is not saved by her own merits is Sleeping Beauty - and in that one I'd say it's not the prince that saves Aurora but the fairies. But that's another argument, don't get me started.

I definitvely agree when you say that DB had much better fights (and imho, better story too). But I'm not sure that the fault lies with the powerlevels. DBZ has always been a story about progression and surpassing oneself. Powerlevels monitors are just the result of wanting to show their progress in numbers. Even without those, the fights would have been the same.

Even if you take the power levels out, you have what I call the eyeball stabbing problem - Character A is so strong that nothing Character B can do will hurt them, so A can lay down all day and take a nap while B can spend the entire time stabbing them in the eyeballs, only to have A wake up from the nap and kill B with a slap. It's cool once, but DBZ had so many of these moments (and litRPG is prone to this sort of thing) that they wore thin and made the fights less interesting.

In real life, you can train MMA your whole life and still get taken out by a stray bullet - or a great war leader like Sisera can be killed by a woman with a tent stake in his sleep. In a war, even medieval or ancient wars, the experienced soldier isn't an invincible one - but he knows how to take and avoid risks, when to attack and when to retreat, and so forth. I think genres that ignore this level of risk cheapen their conflicts.

A good fighting manga series that avoided this trope was Change 123 - even at the end of the series, people were vulnerable to injury and had to be creative and tactical to win their fights.

[BaguetteAndWine]

Even if you take the power levels out, you have what I call the eyeball stabbing problem - Character A is so strong that nothing Character B can do will hurt them, so A can lay down all day and take a nap while B can spend the entire time stabbing them in the eyeballs, only to have A wake up from the nap and kill B with a slap. It's cool once, but DBZ had so many of these moments (and litRPG is prone to this sort of thing) that they wore thin and made the fights less interesting

What you say is that a way to keep fights interesting would be to avoid this eyeball stabbing problem? I'm not certain how to avoid such scenarios in fantasy stories where you find a lot of overpowered characters (i'm not saying every fantasy has OP characters, but there are a lot).

Let's say, scenario 1: my op mc is not fighting to her full capacity at the begining for some reason (or she gets a powerup mid-fight) to keep tension during the fight.
Scenario 2 : my op mc is incapacited or absent at the start of the fight and secondary characters do the fighting, get reckt before mc comes.
Scenario 3: OP mc struggles because the villain outsmarts her, but she use her brain too to overcome her oponent.

Which of the 3 would mostly solve your issue? Maybe there is a 4th scenario that is better?

don't get me started.

Yeah lets not or we are going to start hating on Disney for ruining Star Wars and Marvel too

[jwabeasley]

scenario 1: my op mc is not fighting to her full capacity at the begining for some reason (or she gets a powerup mid-fight) to keep tension during the fight.Scenario 2 : my op mc is incapacited or absent at the start of the fight and secondary characters do the fighting, get reckt before mc comes.Scenario 3: OP mc struggles because the villain outsmarts her, but she use her brain too to overcome her oponent.

3, mostly. The solution to these issues is to keep powerups specific and have relevant costs and weaknesses that matter and can be exploited by an observant opponent. A berserk mode might increase your strength and ferocity but makes you unaware of personal injuries and unable to distinguish allies from enemies, for instance. A D&D Aasimar gets a cool powerup aura but it doesn't make them automatically invincible and it makes them lose a round activating it - and it can only last for one minute per day.
Another solution is to not let powerups be so strong that you don't have to dodge attacks anymore - a sword will still stab you, a volley of arrows will still turn you into a dead pincushion, charging directly at a machinegun nest is still foolish.

Make the characters have to make good use of terrain and tactics to win, let them plan and don't let the abstract numbers decide a conflict. Even an OP character should have exploitable, relevant weaknesses and vulnerabilities that they must work to cover.

[DiegoPalacios]

Thanks! In your opinion, are there any other methods to implement a system in smart ways? You talked about clever plan/build.

Yeah, there are many possibilities. Some players often seek abilities and/or equipment that have strong synergies with each other. If it's possible to multiclass, some characters might be willing to sacrifice progress on their main class for a combo that is strong enough to make up for it.

Also, their character build is strongly affected by their playstyle. A solo player might be willing to give up raw power for some flexibility, but someone who often plays with a group of friends might be more comfortable on specializing in a certain role