Ditching Apple iOS

[djwaglmuffin]

But webtoon is having a censorship issue too, though. Ecchi content is being banned isn't it?

[michaelson]

Hey everyone!

Just wanted to jump in and try to shed some more light and possibly give an answer to this question.

We do NOT deserve this and I would really like to know how bad it would be for you if you stood up for us.

I agree that the creators do not deserve this type of treatment, and as for how bad it would be us if we "stood up" for the creators - that's a little bit more of a nuanced conversation.

We have been going back and forth with Apple in order to get broader approvals for content and also pushing back on certain false positive flags. The problem is the sheer volume of flags that we need to review, resubmit, get feedback, review, confirm (or re-submit again, to get feedback, review, re-submit... you get the picture). I believe we as a company have done a lot in order to push back as much as we can while not being removed from the app store entirely.

Why not block the accounts of the people who are flagging the content, especially if the content was not in violation of your ToS?

So, this isn't really how it works. The auditing team from our mobile publishers have open access to all the content on the platform. We can't block them from access.

Even if they did theoretically ditch Apple, I'm guessing we would also lose a lot of readers too.

And potential readers; the truth is, we actually get a lot of inbound readers that find us organically on the app store.

---

But beyond that, the truth is a lot of our premium creators rely on the revenue from the app stores in order to make a full time living or subsidize their work. Unilaterally making the decision to not publish the Tapas app on iOS would negatively impact a large portion of the premium creators - it would need to be a majority decision from these creators for us to even consider the option.

Also, a majority of Support (tipping) is done through iOS and Android due it's relatively ease of use and better support with watch-to-earn ads and install-based campaigns. A lot of readers utilize these features in order to better support creators they love.

So, all in all, there's a lot riding on our ability to publish through these major distributors and we've invested a lot of development resources in trying to get our apps to be where they are today. If we were to pull our app from iOS, that would also cost some of our engineers their jobs.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, there are a lot of compounding factors as to why we need to publish with iOS. Hope that helps.

[NanettesClouds]

I just wanna say I really appreciate how transparent you guys have been during this whole situation. This is why I use your platform. Thank you.

(also apple sucks I'm sorry y'all have to put up with this!)

[joannekwan]

Yeah. They threw down hard on their censorship several months ago. But as I don't use the site, I'm not sure what the current atmosphere is there.

And with Webtoons' limited/non-existant communication, I don't know if their censorship is app platform related or they just wanted to do it for themselves. And what they decide to pull without any warning to the creator is questionable.
They're like … all over the place.

[djwaglmuffin]

Okay, so...I'm glad you got back to us on this, really. I might be a little hasty in assuming you're not fighting for us but I have my own...reasons why this bothers me so much...that aside:

Here is where I am coming from: We are dealing with this censorship crap on just about every social media platform so it's anxiety inducing when you pour your heart and soul into a project, only to have a 3rd party shoot it down because OH GOD, these of-age gay couples kissed!

Tumblr, for example, flagged art for NO reason and took so many people down and it's been hell trying to recover so...it feels like we don't have a place where there is an audience to share our work without fear of being "censored" for stupid stuff. And at the whims of a computer algorithm that, again, can't tell the difference between porn and gesture studies.

[KRWright]

If Tapas were bigger, it might be able to wrangle the same kind of deal as Amazon and some other apps have where they don't abide by certain codes because of some legal loophole... I can't find the article that explained it, but there is a way around it that Amazon and some other providers exploit, but even they sometimes get hit. I think it must be pretty hard to match the criteria needed for the loophole though as well, otherwise tons of apps would be using it.

[NanettesClouds]

..it feels like we don't have a place where there is an audience to share our work without fear of being "censored" for stupid stuff. And at the whims of a computer algorithm that, again, can't tell the difference between porn and gesture studies.

Have you heard of our lord and savior zines?

[therealbereth]

Zines are not for everyone, though, and they don't mitigate the issue at hand.

The internet used to be this open space where you could build a following outside of real-life boundaries such as racism, misogyny, ableism, homophobia etc. – so many creators have found a way to make a living that otherwise wouldn't have been possible... and now they're forced to adhere to arbitrary guidelines because of monopolies. Sex workers are the most harmed group in this, as you can imagine. So this problem is on a much larger scale than something that, well, zines could even hope to alleviate.

I'm just glad or, well, thankful that the people from Tapas staff try to be as transparent as they can about all this. It's a huge factor of why I am far from considering jumping platforms. Then again, where would I even jump in this climate? lol

[NanettesClouds]

Sure zines don't solve the problem but they do mitigate a lot of issues and ultimately help independent artists to be less reliant on social media/content hosts/algorithms/the internet - which is ultimately a good thing. They're also very easy to produce (especially 1 sheet zines.) I'm not saying that we ditch the internet entirely and flee to zines - but if you're already making a comic thats in page-format I don't really see why you wouldnt?

The majority of the money I've made as an artist is through selling zines that I've made - some of them are my minicomics others are weird experimental things.

Also - self run/independent/co-operative underground publishing and distribution infrastructure exists and is designed to support artists who make zines. as opposed to social media platforms which are - lets face it - designed to exploit us.

Zines don't have to be a huge project - and I bet a lot of us here could easily adapt our comics into zine formats, or just scribble a rant onto some folded printer paper (i did that last night). The question isnt if zines are for everyone the question is if zines are for you - and since its such an open medium with such an accepting community and is such an accessable thing to get involved in (like - who doesn't have access to a printer?) my guess is that for most of us the answer is "yes, zines are for me"

[nostalgicroxas]

You know, my idea of blocking the flagger is becoming more and tempting.

As much as I agree, if the flagger is someone who is supporting Tapas as a whole by buying Ink and supporting creators who have access to ink, then there's not a chance in hell that Tapas will limit that user's reach. It's also a way to "massage" the numbers to make things look more popular or better. For example, lots of apps are put onto a popularity chart not by number of current active users but by number of downloads in the recent month/30 days - nevermind if they cleared a certain objective to prove they're a long-term invested user. And games will not severely punish gold-sellers and bots and the like if it's a sub-to-play game because those users, while making tons of dummy accounts for their activities, are paying into the system. It's a disgusting thing, but it's allll about the numbers.

[djwaglmuffin]

Well...I think I meant more along the lines of blocking said flagger from seeing that particular story...

[Cavechan]

We have been going back and forth with Apple in order to get broader approvals for content and also pushing back on certain false positive flags. The problem is the sheer volume of flags that we need to review, resubmit, get feedback, review, confirm (or re-submit again, to get feedback, review, re-submit... you get the picture). I believe we as a company have done a lot in order to push back as much as we can while not being removed from the app store entirely.

Have to say that I am pretty happy with the way Tapas has been handling this. Tapas could have easily done the same as Tumblr and just did a swooping takedown of everything that was mature content.

This is nothing but bullying tactics by Apple. It is completely their choice about what counts as mature and what doesn't and from what we have seen, their idea of "mature" is extremely, extremely broad and very dangerous.

What can we do though? Stop buying Apple products, stop using their app and use the mobile site instead and if you can don't censor your comic to meet their ridiculous demands. I think that's about it. -_-

[Greetings]

Thank you for your transparency and for all that you're doing for the platform and its creators, you guys are amazing!

[vothnthorvaldson]

I also think we're heading to very dangerous zones.
At this point I would go as far as saying buying Apple products is somewhat irresponsible. I know we can't control everything we buy (or we go crazy), and that I must unknowingly make a lot of irresponsible purchases, but when the danger is that blatant and I'm entirely aware of it.. I would be ashamed of myself for getting anything Apple.

[djwaglmuffin]

yeah. No Apple products in my house eveeerrrr

I don't give a crap how good procreate is.

[jurinova]

I totally agree that we're living in dangerous times in terms of censorship and monopolies. A handful of big companies control a majority of the content either by straight up owning it or through controlling the publishing venues (such as app stores). Small companies and single consumers can't do much on their own but en masse they could change the situation. Money matters to these companies, so they will only change their business models if it can become more profitable.

For example, Disney will keep pushing superhero movies and remakes and sequels because they're extremely profitable. Are they good movies? Not necessarily, but that isn't their goal anymore. They will keep making them until the profits drop. Same goes for Apple and Google. They can keep censoring things and creating ridiculous rules until they start losing money for it. Only if massive amounts of people go into boycott will it matter or if a new competitor enters the situation.

Personally I try my best not to support these big monopolies but it's getting so hard. I've never bought an apple product but then I have to have an android phone and google ain't a saint either. Right now my hope is that actual laws against monopolies will be implented since people alone can't really do much about the situation. Not only is this situation bad in terms of creative freedom it's also terrible for small businesses.

[therealbereth]

he question isnt if zines are for everyone the question is if zines are for you - and since its such an open medium with such an accepting community and is such an accessable thing to get involved in (like - who doesn't have access to a printer?) my guess is that for most of us the answer is "yes, zines are for me"

Here's the thing: it doesn't solve the problem at hand. It's an opt-out. And it doesn't help marginalized creators find their audience when they're barred from even showing their content. You need to have an audience first to sell. Or you have to apply to a zine, to be part of a group project – and not everyone will make it.

On top of that, not everyone here is a comic creator, and anthologies by several novelists writing short stories/slash fiction really don't sell well. It's good when it's a viable source of income for you, but making it out to be some sort of holy grail ignores the larger issue here.

What can we do though? Stop buying Apple products

I wish that were an alternative. With Google being the other big player at the market, I simply have no other choice than using Apple products if I want to protect my data. Android is pure data mining, and I refuse to be subjected to that any longer. So what's left? Not censoring our own stuff, as you said, and hoping that there will come a giant pushback.

Sigh.

[punkarsenic]

I wish that were an alternative. With Google being the other big player at the market, I simply have no other choice than using Apple products if I want to protect my data.

this is the problem, the internet is monopolised and there's no escaping big corporations. the alternatives people are suggesting (like zines) are opt-outs, because of the corporate stronghold on the internet

its so bleeding sad. in the beginning, the internet was like the commons 2.0, it was an open, shared space on which anyone could set up shop. early internet pioneers were so optomistic about it being open, free-for-all learning and communication. but now even our casual socialisation is made through corporate conduits; the webcomics arent on their own sites anymore - and increasingly 'own site' means squarespace hosting - the videos are all on youtube, the music is all on soundcloud or spotify or (again) youtube. all these for-profit companies that can destroy everything you've built in a second, and will. channels get deleted, ToS change without consultation, algorithms shift to wipe out all your activity. livelihoods are getting damaged by this.

the true, long-term, final solution is a difficult one: how to reverse the enclosure of the online commons? one route, which is more accessible to us right now, is developing our own platforms in ways like mastodon (though ive explained my gripes with mastodon before, its just the most obvious example) - creating sites independent of profit, corporate interest, and the regulations of Apple or Google or whoever else.

the challenges: the big sites have a stronghold on audience, they have the money to outpace us, time and effort and resources

the rewards: having spaces we create for ourselves can better serve to boost diverse voices, and creating online interaction free from profit-driven algorithms can lead to more organic and meaningful socialisation

the hard route we have less control over: go monopoly-buster on twitter, google, facebook, etc. perhaps nationalise some of them. very logistically hairy and also impossible right now

[Cavechan]

This is really part of a bigger problem where a very few companies are becoming very, very big. Most companies out there nowadays are owned by a parent company. There are too few choices out there.

[NanettesClouds]

Here's the thing: it doesn't solve the problem at hand. It's an opt-out. And it doesn't help marginalized creators find their audience when they're barred from even showing their content. You need to have an audience first to sell. Or you have to apply to a zine, to be part of a group project – and not everyone will make it.

Zines don't solve the problem at hand unless people make zines that actively contribute to solving the problem at hand- which - is easy to do. Zines didn't solve the aids crisis - but they were able to disseminate life saving information that the government wasn't going to put out. Sometimes it's not about solving its about contributing what you can.

Furthermore - you don't have to completely abandon the internet and social media. All I'm advocating for is that artists try better to become less reliant on the internet.

I think you and I are thinking about two different things which is maybe what's causing some of the confusion. Zines can be short fiction - they can be essays - they can be poetry - they can be completely independently made. They do not have to be glossy, they do not need to come in print runs of thousands - they do not have to be submitted to.

Also, the majority of the money I've made as an artist has come through selling zines. I do not have (much of) an audience. I sell them in local stores, face to face, and at small conventions. (Also furthermore, zine conventions tend to have really really cheap tables as opposed to comic/anime/fan conventions, and a much more accepting and supportive audience IMHO)

Zines don't have to sell well - they just have to bring in enough revenue to cover their print costs (which is easier than it sounds) and, furthermore, make more money for you than posting that same content on the internet would (which, is also easier than it sounds.) - I mean, that's just talking about SELLING zines, there a priceless sense of community and connection that comes from trading and gifting and donating them as well.

If you have a printer you can make a zine. Doesn't have to be fancy. Heck you don't even need a printer you can hand make one of a kind zines and those work well too.

(EDIT: Historically speaking, zines have been a safe-haven for marginalized creators TO find an audience and support network, especially when mainstream platforms shut them out or actively punished them.

Also all of your arguments against zines - that it doesn't help marginalized creators (they do), that you have to have an audience first to sell (you don't), and that you have to apply to a zine to be part of a group project (not treally how it works), and not everyone will 'make it' (is that even the point?), can basically be turned right back around at the internet. The key difference is that zines are not corparatized and that the creator has more control over their distribution.)

What you're thinking of - the glossy fanzines and high production print runs - while count as zines - are not the definition of zine.

(EDIT EDIT: I'm getting dangerously off topic on all of this zine stuff - so this is my last word on the subject. If anyone is interested about learning more about zines I've been tweeting a lot about them this week - @NiahMakesStuff )