Diversity in webcomics

[punkarsenic]

jacked individuals that look masculine n all cuz that's what attracts female readers(majority)

thats definitely not true. the jacked white men are a power fantasy for male readers, the edginess (that is actually a very very safe marketing tactic and therefor, not edgy) is also directed at men - the comics in the mainstream marketed at girls typically have quirky, awkward young women as main characters. theyre more light-hearted, and talk more about feelings and politics and all that boring, non-manly, no-blowing-shit-up crap that men just hate. (theres also a space for comics abt older women like capt marvel and spiderwoman that involve smore mature issues, like grief or pregnancy. i think the main trend is the allowance to slow down and consider emotions and other, more interesting things. you can tell these are my kinda comics)

everyone hates diversity(and I don't mean they hate it cuz of bigotry or something)

nah man, its a specific demographic of people that hate diversity, not everyone. if it was everyone, diverse things would be bombing all the time, instead of whitewashed action movies.

as comics are goods n services, just like any other merchandise are meant to satisfy the readers and not to show diversity.

both can happen simultaneously, you know? and there are lots of successful comics and other pieces of media in the west telling the stories of poc, or women, or lgbt people - or all three simultaneously. theres a market for it. its reality; america is actually very diverse, and most people will be living in very diverse places, and will be able to relate to people that arent exactly like them. and anyway, as michaela coel said, "if you dont get it, its not for you"

[NickRowler]

america is actually very diverse, and most people will be living in very diverse places,

Well, America is diverse however not everywhere in America is very diverse. There are higher levels of diversity in the major cities yet it tends to be mostly white in rural areas.

I live in a very diverse area, so racial diversity is sort of the norm for me. To the point where if a film/show/comic is not diverse, it looks weird to me.

[SleepingPoppy]

a comic that says they are diverse yet only include the same kinds of people, minorities or otherwise, is not diverse

It is less diverse in universe, but more diverse when looking at the broader genre. Ie, most movies have white straight male protagonist, so a movie with a black straight male protagonist is adding diversity over all.

A comic that says they are diverse yet only includes the same kinds of people, minorities or otherwise is not varied, but it could still be considered diverse! Semantics, I know. I'm not trying to argue so much as offer a different way to look at it the same thing.

[ogawaburukku]

I don't mind arguing semantics XD It's easier to argue since it's not easy to hurt people's feelings when it's a semantics vs morals issue.

I think adding a comic about Asians by Asians to a rack with mostly Marvel superheroes can diversify the collection, sure, but I'm gonna have to keep disagreeing that a comic saying "This is a diverse comic" makes it sound like there is diversity within that comic, and not as a general "adding diversity to the comic pool" view. If the author said "Diversify your webcomics list!", implying their comic will fill a missing social gap or something would not be a false statement.

Not really a big deal, haha, but that's my view, anyway.

[ogawaburukku]

It looks weird to me and I live in a homogenous country where I am the super minority. If I am watching an American film or TV series, where the show usually takes place in NY or LA or something, I expect diversity. I've been watching older 90s shows lately (like Friends) and it's pretty bizarre seeing a show taking place in NY where the cast is all white (if you consider Jewish to be white, and some people do not) for a chunk of the series. But when it comes to non-American stuff, I really don't care.

I think a large ethnic mixture, globally speaking, isn't the norm, and a lot of Americans don't get that, but I do like variety in the cast. Characters all look the same to me if they are all white, blonde, and good looking XD

[R.n.P]

both can happen simultaneously, you know? and there are lots of successful comics and other pieces of media in the west telling the stories of poc, or women, or lgbt people - or all three simultaneously. theres a market for it. its reality; america is actually very diverse, and most people will be living in very diverse places, and will be able to relate to people that arent exactly like them. and anyway, as michaela coel said, "if you dont get it, its not for you"

I've replied someone else that said the same thing to me bout media being able to sell n show diversity, it is possible but as a business man the number one priority you have is to make gains n profits, diversity doesn't matter in the market, what matters is if you satisfy your customers, if all the movies you consider 'diverse(though to me I just see all movies as movies not judging by diversity) were to be poorly written as the new diverse marvel comics they wouldn't sell, they didn't think that by adding the diverse characters they now had the right to make a poorly written story and that is what I meant by that statement earlier, diversity doesn't matter in business, its not like because of that you would just suddenly become rich

nah man, its a specific demographic of people that hate diversity, not everyone. if it was everyone, diverse things would be bombing all the time, instead of whitewashed action movies.

Its not a particular demographic, if its like that then you have instantly labelled a group of individuals that you don't even who they are in a negative light, I could rephrase what I said n use majority rather than everyone since there are some that for some reason love diversity irrespective of any negative effect it could have on a story. There are lots of good stories especially in Marvel that has been ruined by diversity as lousy writers see those diverse characters as a medium to preach their self righteousness, nobody in my opinion gives a damn bout diversity when it comes to comics cuz to me as a reader I couldn't care less, all I want is a good interesting story n a good character with motivations and goals.

thats definitely not true. the jacked white men are a power fantasy for male readers, the edginess (that is actually a very very safe marketing tactic and therefor, not edgy) is also directed at men - the comics in the mainstream marketed at girls typically have quirky, awkward young women as main characters. theyre more light-hearted, and talk more about feelings and politics and all that boring, non-manly, no-blowing-shit-up crap that men just hate. (theres also a space for comics abt older women like capt marvel and spiderwoman that involve smore mature issues, like grief or pregnancy. i think the main trend is the allowance to slow down and consider emotions and other, more interesting things. you can tell these are my kinda comics)

To me the whole women don't like comic characters that are jacked n prefer silly comics is stereotypical(but I do understand that most stereotypes are based on facts) n not true cuz I've seen lots of women that read our kinda comics cuz it is also targeted at female readers, the time when comics like those were popular n all were the same periods when body building was still a popular thing and women loved jacked individuals at that time, so that kinda marketing was aimed mostly at women, men would read anything that has enough action n badass scenes but for women that make up a majority of the population, they would also need to grab a portion of that market that are attracted to jacked men back in those days but over time cultural preferences and tastes change and evolve so now the comics are aimed mostly at men and the jacked characters can't be changed to aim for a market that has already moved on and to the loyal market there would be a backlash if they were to start trying to change iconic characters for a slim chance of getting another market to join in again.

[monotone_ink]

'Diversity' really does depend on the context of the story, especially the setting.
In a teeming city that acts as a center of trade and immigration, of course there'll be people from all over the world, and thus it would be realistic to have a diverse cast of ethnic backgrounds in the story.
If the setting is that of a village or network of villages that have been long untouched by the outside world, of course it would be realistic if they all looked similiar, because they have the same ethnic backgrounds.

The one thing to avoid when writing diversity into your work is treating it like a checklist. Adding a lesbian character or a character who suffers from anorexia does not automatically make your story more interesting or profound. It feels shoehorned if they've been added for the sake of their presence. Their unique labels, sexuality, genders, or disorders shouldn't be what defines them - it should merely be a part of their character as a whole.

I don't like talking about diversity too much though, since a large group of people are super sensitive to this subject, especially with things like 'white washing' (really disliked this with the live SNK adaptations, as the complaints just seemed unreasonable).

In the end, I don't give a flying fuck about how many LGBT or disabled characters are in your cast - as long as they are actual characters and the product is great, you'll make me happy.

[LindseyLeeMiller]

I'm curious here if anyones thought that the "too diverse" comment might not always be actually directed towards the content of the webcomic or graphic novel but rather the way that it's advertised.
Personally from the extremely diverse to the little to no diversity, it usually does not effect me as a reader, coming from a white- female american background however - sometimes I do dislike the way comics or even animation is represented or advertised by it's fans or at times its author. I feel that sometimes fans or authors solely advertise the works solely based on its level of diversity or the demographic niche it may fullfill and does not sell me on the actual content of the series.
While not a comic an example many people may be familiar with is the Steven Universe cartoon. I currently live in South Korea and get most of my my American entertainment news online, it was very rare for me to find comments, reviews, or endorsements that did not focus on the diversity of its cast or the complexity of the casts relationships. Instead of just selling me on the overall story, art, craftsmanship, or the way those relationships may pan out. I feel that sometimes the ways that people can talk about a webcomic, animation, or other entertainment media can sometimes undercut all of its other greatest acheivements solely to focus on its diversity.

Does anyone also get this feeling when they are being introduced to a new comic or show from someone?

[nolongerusetheforum]

I remember I have find the OP comic before and this is my opinion

After reading some chapter of OP comic I think what people means by 'too diverse' is that there is too many character there? I mean well, jumping to other character POV does sounds good and give more bg about that other character, but changing the story POV every so often can be confusing and also, since I barely know this character then suddenly there is another one pop out I just kind of lose motivation to continue it.

Sorry, but I am a big fans of supernatural so I have read your comic before but after 2 chapter I stop because suddenly there is a new character that just pop out of nowhere with no explanation or even some connection with the previous character before. I am sorry but your story jump out too much with too many new character so that's why I didn't even get past chapter 3.

Honestly though because your setting is supernatural I don't really care if you have too much monster with a ton sexual orientation (also I found that it's ridiculous that in a story about monster people still keen on forcing human sexual orientation on it, I mean they are monster, they can even reproduce by splitting themself into million pieces and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that) but it's the way you jump from one character into another so fast that confusing me.

Just my 2 cent.

[SleepingPoppy]

as a business man the number one priority you have is to make gains n profits, diversity doesn't matter in the market...

(I'm defining 'diverse' as pretty much anything that is not straight white male protagonist)

Yes, businesses are interested in being profitable. Yes, actually, I agree that that is a contributing factor to why we get less diversity in most media, because businesses see 'white straight male protagonist' as the safe option. It's because they see it that way that so many people feel the need to make a lot of noise about wanting more diversity, because businesses won't give us movies like the Hunger Games unless a lot of people make it clear that YES, WE WANT AND WILL WATCH WOMEN LEADS IN ACTION MOVIES. PLS AND THANK YOU. Which is rediculous, because have you heard of Alien? Yes, woman can lead action movies, but for some reason Hollywood likes to treat it like a HUGE RISK.

Video games and comic books have this problem too.

There are lots of good stories especially in Marvel that has been ruined by diversity as lousy writers see those diverse characters as a medium to preach their self righteousness, nobody in my opinion gives a damn bout diversity when it comes to comics cuz to me as a reader I couldn't care less, all I want is a good interesting story n a good character with motivations and goals.

It's the lousy writing and preaching you have a problem with, yeah? Not the diversity? So maybe stop saying "ruined by diversity". Instead say "ruined by bad writing". But also, maybe you should accept that stories aren't just about escapism? X-men has long since had a message of equality, for example. It's just that those messages need to be delivered with tact and a deft hand, when they do come up, so that they don't feel annoying and preachy. I mean, that's just the way I see it.

[R.n.P]

It's the lousy writing and preaching you have a problem with, yeah? Not the diversity? So maybe stop saying "ruined by diversity". Instead say "ruined by bad writing". But also, maybe you should accept that stories aren't just about escapism? X-men has long since had a message of equality, for example. It's just that those messages need to be delivered with tact and a deft hand, when they do come up, so that they don't feel annoying and preachy. I mean, that's just the way I see it.

Lol no need to sound pissed off but you do have a point there but at the same time objectively speaking it is still a cause of the bad writing, when there is such a huge effect that a company like marvel that competes neck n neck with DC suddenly has a massive slump in sales you can't fix the problem without first pointing out the cause, so if you don't know the cause of the problem, you can't solve it n that's where the whole diversity ruins it comes into play, the writers that do the bad writing could actually be talented in their own respect but if either forced to go with the 'diversity' rather than the plot n story they had in mind for their characters or they themselves want it n also have a bias in it n now seem to bash one particular demographic or get preachy, there is no way that would work in a free market. Also concerning x-men, billions of people out there in this world that have watched x-men don't even know that its meant to preach bout equality, I never even knew bout it till bout February if I'm recalling correctly n all those other people that don't know are either just children, people that just don't care bout it or people that are just looking for entertainment, the story itself was made in a way that it equality is not the main focus of it, almost everyone sees it n just thinks "awesome mutants with awesome powers n awesome characters to booth, creators shut up n take my money already", that's how majority of the world thinks, they don't go looking for oppression in every nook or corner or looking for a way to tell people their ideals everywhere they go, they just want to live their life

(I'm defining 'diverse' as pretty much anything that is not straight white male protagonist)

Yes, businesses are interested in being profitable. Yes, actually, I agree that that is a contributing factor to why we get less diversity in most media, because businesses see 'white straight male protagonist' as the safe option. It's because they see it that way that so many people feel the need to make a lot of noise about wanting more diversity, because businesses won't give us movies like the Hunger Games unless a lot of people make it clear that YES, WE WANT AND WILL WATCH WOMEN LEADS IN ACTION MOVIES. PLS AND THANK YOU. Which is rediculous, because have you heard of Alien? Yes, woman can lead action movies, but for some reason Hollywood likes to treat it like a HUGE RISK.

I'm really happy we found some common ground in the business side of it but there are still some parts to me that are wrong, first of, what you said in the beginning about you defining diversity as anything that isn't a straight white male protagonist, if you gave it as an example it would be better because diversity as a whole is something that depends on perspective, I'm a Nigerian so I live in basically a country full of only black people so a straight white hommie is considered as diversity where I come from but no one ever talks bout it being cruel or wrong so there are only two things I can get from that definition of yours, either 1- somehow using only a straight white males which represent a majority of your population(something that would be a lot easier to market) is considered wrong in itself in your point of view or 2- being a majority of the population in your country isn't a good thing cuz that leans more to the insertion that being the majority in any country is a bad thing n using my country as an example that kinda definition is somewhat flawed at that point as it doesn't represent our perspective too, now the main point I didn't agree with was what you said bout so many people feeling the need the make a lot of noise bout wanting 'diversity', only a minority of the market asks bout it, if not Hollywood wouldn't then treat it as a risk as you said and marvel would have outsold dc comics when they implemented it into their stories plus to those individuals that ask for it, it's rarely ever bout those people wanting a good story and more of it matching their ideals n political beliefs, most of the market out there are just ordinary individuals that just don't care, they are simple working folks that just use the media as entertainment so when watching it, things like diversity never crosses their minds and therefore diversity as a whole right now in the industry is actually a risk in itself n not just treated like one though in a broadened view diversity is actually a good thing, the sellers know that most customers don't even care bout diversity, all that the customers are after is just a form of entertainment n the sellers know throwing the 'diversity' in there can easily discourage their viewers if it is not done to its absolute peak of perfection as the demand doesn't match a majority of their market

[SleepingPoppy]

Lol no need to sound pissed off

You're reading tone that isn't there. ^^

I'm a Nigerian so I live in basically a country full of only black people so a straight white hommie is considered as diversity

I've been following your other posts, and you regularly refer to this as it pertains to the US, so that is specifically what I'm addressing, which was why I specified white male protagonist being the norm. I'm sure its different in your country, but I have no context for that, so I can't speak to it. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

1- somehow using only a straight white males which represent a majority of your population(something that would be a lot easier to market) is considered wrong in itself in your point of view

I never said it was wrong. I'm saying I just also want other things too.

2- being a majority of the population in your country isn't a good thing cuz that leans more to the insertion that being the majority in any country is a bad thing

It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a statistic. If there's a lot of vanilla ice cream, and I decide to have a scoop of strawberry, I'm not saying vanilla ice cream is bad. I'm saying sometimes strawberry is also good.

it's rarely ever bout those people wanting a good story and more of it matching their ideals n political beliefs

Okay, but I'm one of those people, and I'm telling you I want good stories. I can't exactly speak for all other people, but my general impression is very different from yours. Feel free to agree to disagree, though.

[vividgrim]

Yeah, no. Marvel's statement about diversity causing poor sales is bullshit. They even retracted it, because they know it was bullshit.

It's late and I don't really have the time to go into the details. Fortunately, others have done so for me:

A short article. Another article. Another. Aaaand another. There's plenty more if you google.

A free giant Twine essay. Beware, 38,000+ words on Marvel's nonsense.

The TL;DR: Marvel doesn't even do much research into its sales beyond direct sales; it annoys old readers and confuses new ones with constant crossovers and events; it promotes the wrong thing or otherwise sucks at promotion; and it barely gives new titles a chance before cancelling them.

[LindseyLeeMiller]

That statement was utter horesehit, and they know it but they never want to admit the main underlying problems that have been effecting the comic industry since the closure of news stands across the U.S. and the over reliance and under support of comic book shops. All those articles hit the nail on the head. Its not just that they are confusing its their ridiciulous physical and digital sales distribution models, the clusterfuck way they can never keep one consistent thought. Constant fucking gimmicks. Even during the golden age of comics the comic sales practices by DC and Marvel has never been good and continues to get worse in this trying time for written/comic media period.

I attended the Savannah College of Art and Design and during an Editors day, the Editors from all the biggest companies in the U.S. and Canada had a Panel where they told their views on the industry, tips, and answered questions. During my sophmore year (2010) those industry professionals told us that the industry was dying. Its honestly always doom and gloom with them but you can't really expect much else when your not changing your business or marketing practices. So whenever a statement like Marvels comes out about blaming diversity I find it hilarious and a sign of people who don't want to change business models because they know nothing about the business from the consumer end. No responsibility.

That statement reminded me of another rumor I read about the TV show Teen Titans initially getting canceled. That girls were buying the teen titans (male demographic) toys and not girl's toys, thus underselling the girls toys. It's a bit of a stretch but its always been a line of thought I've been curious about in regards to comics as well. If comics don't sell to the demographics I'm aiming for even if they are a selling well does that mean its because its taking away sales from other areas.

[vividgrim]

Personally having a bunch of nonwhite, LGBT, mentally ill/neurodivergent, etc characters just felt right.

For one thing, I care deeply about people in general, and I know how big a difference representation can make. While I'm never going to be the person who gets us to Mars, I can still change the world for someone out there with my art.

For another, I fall in love with names. Sometimes I create a character knowing only their name and extrapolate from there. So, since I love many names from different cultures, sometimes I'll decide a character's ethnicity or nationality based off their name.

And finally... it's more accurate to my life experience. Like, I live in a kind of rinky dink southern Arizona town. We don't have a lot going on. Our population is around 40,000. Our claim to fame is that we have the first McDonald's drive thru, and we're kind of nearby the historic site of this famous shout out. But yet, in my two years working at McDonald's, I meant so many different kinds of people.

Most of my friends are queer, mentally ill, disabled, etc too. Plus, y'know, there's me.

Admittedly, this current story does explore things like gendered expectations/socialization and trauma. But that's the kind of story I want to tell, because it's interesting and those experiences have made my life what it is. A lot of people champion representation where a character's marginalized status is only a small thing in their life, and that's cool sometimes, because it is like that for some people. But for a lot of us our sexuality/gender/disability/race/etc are a big part of our lives. They affect how we're treated, how we think of ourselves, how we learn to interact with others - so many facets of our lives. My entire personality isn't "trans bisexual with ADD/autism/mental illness/several other conditions", but you're nuts if you think it hasn't in part made me who I am today.

[R.n.P]

You're reading tone that isn't there. ^^

It was mostly based on the tone of the punctuations, if lots of questions are asked back to back it usually sounds more like the person is angry from my demographic
No I actually agree with all you said here, thanks for the chat bro

[R.n.P]

I've already gone through most articles n reviews bout how what marvel said was wrong when this whole situation started(thanks though) n they are correct but mostly still fail at acknowledging the fact that diversity was still a key factor for marvel's failure (here's just a silly example), if a branch is lodged into your stomach, you wont go n tell the doctor that you are bleeding n in pain(like in the comic stating that there was bad writing n propaganda in it), you simply go with the easiest route n simply tell the doctor that a branch is lodged in your stomach( like in the comic say that diversity is ruining it),its basically just generalizing the problem to make it easier to solve, Marvel said the truth generally but Marvel worded it in a way that branded their entire fandom as bad people n that's why there was a backlash there, Marvel should have just done their diversity subtly so as not to make it seem pushy or too in the readers face which caused the fans to leave the comics n now caused a whole lotta controversy around them n their fans.
Lol I'm starting to think that I may be the person in this topic with the most words typed hahaha, I better get a medal or something from tapastic for interacting so much with everyone else for so long.

[scythe]

I feel like a lot of people who are interested in 'geeky' things like anime and manga and thus frequent this site are pretty young, so I like to give young people a pass for not being around in the 80s and only being very young kids in the 90s.

Let me tell you though that back then, something like race mattered about 1% of what it does now. Sure, it still mattered, in its own way, but it was normal and right to be "colorblind", as I still believe it is in the sense that it shouldn't matter what race a character is if that trait isn't part of the story.

There were of course, many less stories about gay people, although they were still there, and gender issues, well, no one ever thought about that stuff.

I think though a lot of young people alive today would be surprised to learn that there were dozens of hugely popular, mostly or all black TV shows throughout the 80s and 90s, and no one cared and no one made a big deal about it. They were mostly just shows about normal families doing normal things. There have also been strong female lead characters on TV and in movies and in books spanning all the way back, but sometime in the mid 2000s, people just seemed to forget all that, and rebooted the conversation from a premise that non white people, or leading women, or gay people had until that point, been broadly locked out of the media and story telling in general.

I think the problem now with so many stories about women or minorities is that the creators focus almost entirely on that one aspect, to a really, really cynical degree. It stopped being about good characters and stories, and started being about being a minority or a woman itself. For instance, the new Thor didn't just happen to be a woman, her being a woman WAS the point of the character, and not only that, she had to be an out and proud misogynist-punchin' feminist, complete with totally forced, painfully corny dialogue. I agree with what others have said. Marvel's audience doesn't hate diverse characters, they hate godawful characters, stories and blatant pandering and tokenism.

I've said it a hundred times already, but it bears saying again, 99% or readers or TV/movie watchers really don't care about the skin colour or sexuality of a character, but after a decade of this, they are getting really tired of stories and characters being used as cynical political mouthpieces. It's such a shame, because now we're at the point where it's just par for the course to have a wide range of token characters inserted into every story as if creators are required to fill in a diversity check list, and those that don't, even if they're wonderfully written, are attacked and lambasted by an outrage brigade quick to jump on anything that doesn't fit in with that current day's ever-shifting definition of 'diverse'.

[joannekwan]

I think though a lot of young people alive today would be surprised to learn that there were dozens of hugely popular, mostly or all black TV shows throughout the 80s and 90s, and no one cared and no one made a big deal about it. They were mostly just shows about normal families doing normal things. There have also been strong female lead characters on TV and in movies and in books spanning all the way back,

Oh my gosh, yes! Like I loved watching Family Matters, The Hughleys, and My Wife and Kids! Those were some of my favorite family-centric sitcoms. And there were a lot of great female-driven shows and movies. I just watched Alien for the first time the other day and Ripley is such a great character! She never tried to one-up the boys and everyone treated her like everyone else.

[Devika]

I think the problem now with so many stories about women or minorities is that the creators focus almost entirely on that one aspect, to a really, really cynical degree.

I think you nailed it right there, and not just the stories but the readers too. At some point the conversation went from a simple "hey, let's reassess the representation in movies" to a crusade on anything even remotely hinting at a "problematic" stance.