Diversity in webcomics

[radicles]

LOLLL this is so tru oh god,,, tbh the only examples of this i found that rly pissed me off were from comics written by ppl with no sensitivity or experience whatsoever with nb/trans/ace/aro people like, they kept pushing more characters into the story so theyd have lots and lots of LGBT tokens while having NO IDEA how to write them. and it was a pretty popular but nonsensical comic so that left me with such a bad taste in my mouth

[radicles]

the deal here is that not every representation is good representation. if you dont know how to write a diverse cast, have no experience, or dont live with them/know any of them, dear god thread carefully. you can really, really mess stuff up.

[indagold]

But that's the problem, a lot of them are non straight/non cis who write this stuff. It makes it even more cringier because you'd think they would know better.

[R.n.P]

Oh yeah in my last reply over here I forgot to mention, in a company situation where you sell print outs of the comics, diversity wouldn't work, people like edgy stuff, things that catch their attentions once they see it, that's how marketing works, that's why most popular male superheroes are usually jacked individuals that look masculine n all cuz that's what attracts female readers(majority) n some male readers that want a cool looking protagonist, same thing when you look at scantily clad female characters, they are usually the most popular characters e.g wonderwoman so in a majority white country like America it's easier to sell to white audiences(which by the way make up the majority of the market) through a character(plus its more realistic seeing as statistically speaking you will be more likely to see more whites in that kinda environment) with the same skin color just like how in my home country it's easier to sell comics that have a majority of black characters. Also through marketing you follow the trends and right now everyone hates diversity(and I don't mean they hate it cuz of bigotry or something), they would rather not hear what is preached to them every single day in school and at home when they try to escape reality by reading comics n that's why successful stories are based more on concrete story telling that are not trying to preach to you but rather tell a story after all it's easier to drop a story than to keep up with it so as comics are goods n services, just like any other merchandise are meant to satisfy the readers and not to show diversity.

[ItsKkYo]

I have a lot of problems with this....

in a company situation where you sell print outs of the comics, diversity wouldn't work, people like edgy stuff, things that catch their attentions once they see it, that's how marketing works

First this simply isn't true when comics like Miss Marvel have a woman of color as a lead and do well. There's a whole new line of diverse comics that do well because people want to be represented. Traditionally comics have been aimed at white men which is why you may think 'diversity doesn't work', but that's just not the case.

hat's why most popular male superheroes are usually jacked individuals that look masculine n all cuz that's what attracts female readers(majority) n some male readers that want a cool looking protagonist, same thing when you look at scantily clad female characters,

Super muscular male characters are not aimed at women. Both hyper masculine males and scantily clad women are aimed at straight men, the male characters are a power fantasy.

so in a majority white country like America it's easier to sell to white audiences(which by the way make up the majority of the market) through a character(plus its more realistic seeing as statistically speaking you will be more likely to see more whites in that kinda environment) with the same skin color just like how in my home country it's easier to sell comics that have a majority of black characters.

America is a majority white country, but white people will still go see things that aren't about them. Look at the success of Hidden Figures, Moonlight, or Straight Outta Compton. Also skewing the market only at white people is actually a bad move because even if they have the majority of the money in the US, the companies are still missing out of profit from certain groups.

Also through marketing you follow the trends and right now everyone hates diversity(and I don't mean they hate it cuz of bigotry or something), they would rather not hear what is preached to them every single day in school and at home when they try to escape reality by reading comics n that's why successful stories are based more on concrete story telling that are not trying to preach to you but rather tell a story after all it's easier to drop a story than to keep up with it so as comics are goods n services, just like any other merchandise are meant to satisfy the readers and not to show diversity.

And this is the part that I have the most issue with. "Everyone hates diversity"? That isn't true. As I've pointed out movies not centered around whiteness do very well in the box office. Also who is this 'everyone'? Are you talking about a majority of white people because there are tons of people of color who don't hate diversity.

"They'd rather not hear what is preached to them every single day in school.." Once again I'm going to assume you're talking about white people when you say 'they'. But anyway here you're implying that diversity is inherently preachy, which it isn't. Also you're implying that schools and people at home actually do an effective job about talking about issues with minorities in this country which is laughable.

The thing is if by 'escape from reality' you mean escape from the fact that people of color, lgbt+, or other people who aren't the societal norm exist instead of escape to a cool fantasy world full of awesome adventure, that's bigoted. You talk here as if any addition of diversity automatically means there can't be good writing and I find that gross. Diversity doesn't hinder good writing.

[infectedbloodcomics]

Don't you think it's their right to have an entire fictional world with non - straight characters, especially since this real world is full of straight people?

[knightjj]

Hi there. I appreciate all the comments on this tread, both the ones I personally agree with and the ones I don't.
It got way more replies so far then I could've hoped for but please understand that this tread is for everyone to voice their opinions and discuss with each other in a respectful and open minded way. So please don't make it personal by pointing fingers and keep it civil. thank you

[scythe]

If diversity is just a synonym for realistic, then I'm all for it. It's realistic to have lots of different kinds of people, with lots of different points of view if you're setting your story in a modern western metropolis. At the same time, if you're setting your story in historical Poland, it's not realistic to have lots of different races here and there.

The problem is that too often diversity is just used as a synonym for not white, or not straight, or not male.

You'll get stories that are almost entirely not white, or gay, or all female and they'll be called "diverse". That's the opposite of diverse.

Or you'll hear the term, she's a "diverse" character. Ummm... how can a single individual be diverse?

This kind of 'diversity' is an ideology, and is far too often hamfisted into stories to the point where the writer is no longer telling an honest story, but just on a soapbox preaching their political views. I've read comics like that, where a character will just inexplicably start ranting about some social justice issue. That's not dialogue. That's an op ed. If you want to write social justice op eds, go for it. Just don't sell me a comic that's actually an op ed.

That's how this specific ideological definition of 'diversity' can ruin a story. And that's the kind of 'diversity' that's tanked Marvel's sales.

[NickRowler]

People here be fightin' over black lady Ironman and I am here like...that actually sounds sort of cool.

Tho, when I looked it up, she's not replacing Ironman, she is a completely different character called Ironheart and she's suppose to be a "Ironwoman" to Ironman...I guess. Don't these companies make AUs and side characters like this all the time? I guess I don't really give a rats ass about superhero comics to really feel too emotional about it...maybe that's why all these people who are having a heart attack and throwing tantrums about it just look like weirdos who spend too much time on the internet to me.

[R.n.P]

Yh its cool having a black ironwoman n all, but originally they planned to change Stark to the character but later changed their minds recently due to the backlash from the fan base n tbh I don't blame the fans, stark was a damn almost perfect character.Well if the fan base wants it they should get it but since they don't want it then the writer shouldn't or if they still decide to, have to implement it very well in order to get people to be interested in the story since there at least needs to be a market for them to sell to if not its rather pointless since a company is basically there to make profits n in the end if done poorly just leads to more people hating diversity even though from a normal standpoint is actually a good thing.

[NickRowler]

Not all fanbases are fully rational. Heck some fanbases are notorious for being "toxic". I guess there is sort of the argument about if an author wants to create something a certain way, should the fans dictate whether or not the story actually gets made their way. Should the creator change their creation just so that fans wouldn't be as upset...or dare I say offended. Yeah honey, this shit goes both ways.

Also, I originally thought Robert Downey Jr. was latino...so I sort of headcanon Ironman as latino anyways. So maybe that's why I am less upset...or maybe I feel like it is not really something to get upset over.

Also please use periods. -___-

[R.n.P]

Yeah true, I'm not a fan of creators having to change things they actually wanna do since I've already gotten that feeling when fans made kubo mess up some parts of bleach, so far I guess it just depends on the situation, sometimes the author will have to listen to the fans cuz its the fans that pay the creator but sometimes the author just has to do what he wants to do, if it were me I would go with the majority vote, if majority of my fans want it then I will do it but if majority doesn't I would either not do it(which will be a more likely decision from me) or do it in a way that will end up loving it(if I can).

[ogawaburukku]

I have a fairly diverse cast but I like diversity. As a character designer, I get bored if all my characters are white or blonde, etc. I don't really do it to make a point, and since I don't make a big deal of it most people don't realize I have a mixed race cast. In fact, a girl once told me "it's okay that all your characters are white" while pointing at an illustration featuring 2 characters, one Asian and one South American. But in the comic their identities are still largely a mystery, so I don't promote the comic as being diverse or having a lead character who is not white. I draw in anime style, though, so they have blue and purple hair and I guess that confuses things, too.

I get a little frustrated when I see comics doing the diversity checklist thing. I don't say anything when I see it, either. I also get frustrated when I see a comic with ZERO diversity, but again I don't really say anything, since in both cases it is the author's story, their vision, and who am I to judge. I'm pretty used to reading comics without diversity (I read a lot of manga, which is mostly Japanese characters) and the only time the diversity thing bugs me in this case is when the author has a chance to include dark-skinned characters and doesn't. One story I read, Magi, has a character who is obviously from this fictional world's equivalent to Africa and her skin is very light. I say it bothers me, but really it's more of a "Eh, that's too bad, it would have been cool if she looked more African". The Egyptian styled characters, though, are tan skinned, so it's kind of curious why the author didn't do the same for the African-styled girl.

It's a touchy subject! I've been called racist for supporting non-diverse media, and I've been called anti-white for supporting diversity. I'm in the middle... I don't see diversity as bad, I think diversity is normal and it's weird if an American movie or TV series is all-white in this day and age. But I also don't get the pitchforks and torches ready when I don't see diversity.

I only have one character whose race is immediately going to be an issue, and I'm really nervous about those chapters since it is so hard these days to not offend someone... but it's something I've been wanting to do and I'm going to go ahead and do it, and if people don't like it, well, I guess I'll hear about it. But I'll probably not change a thing because it's my story, my vision, my characters, and my choice.

[ogawaburukku]

Totally agree-- diversity is realistic and normal, but then Marvel and some other companies tried too hard to force it for PR purposes, when it just sticks out like a sore thumb. They don't need to alter old characters to make things diverse, they could, I dunno, create new characters? I don't mean making Power Girl retire and a young black girl take up the mantle, I mean a young black character is an all-new hero and isn't just getting "hand-me-downs".

But you're right too about diversity not always being appropriate. I love Game of Thrones, which is almost entirely made up of British and white European actors. But it's based on a medieval European world and it would frankly be a little odd if they made the blonde Lannister family Asian for the sake of mixing it up. Sometimes I kinda like it though. I have seen some movies that take place in the early 20th century showing black, white, Asian, etc people all mingling together as if that was fully acceptable for the time. And I'm kinda like "Eh, yeah, I don't mind" if the movie isn't about race and realistic politics of the time. If ti's a musical and they wanna sing and dance and be Chicago I still love it.

And I'm glad someone pointed out that an all-one-thing-even-if-it's-not-white-and-straight cast is not diverse... haha. It's not white, no, but it's not diverse. I keep seeing ads for a certain site that promotes the diversity on the site when the roster is "black-black-black-black-Asian-black". It's not, you know, diverse... but I know they are trying to emphasize that they are not white without sounding racist.

Diversity is pretty normal, and I like that it's become normal. I think some authors and studios try too hard to promote how open-minded and whatever they are, but it's still a welcome change to what the media was like twenty years ago.

[R.n.P]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

[knightjj]

Hey guys I understand you are passionate to tell your opinions on certain specific stories and writers but please stay on the topic of the tread!

[shiftingverses]

With my comic it always felt natural to have a racially diverse cast as it's set across a world stage and deals with the origins of religion and culture. However, as it's fantasy they don't massively represent our own reality or tensions, as it felt ugly to transpose those divisions over from our world. As such there's no animosity between people of different melanin levels, but there is between cultures and faiths. I wasn't interested in using a fantasy world to explore our own world's racial problems, it felt like it would inescapably reductive and almost second-hand.

Another thing I've struggled with in my comic is representation of sexuality. One of my main characters is gay, but my characters aren't generally defined by their sexuality and the plot moves at quite a pace. So having it mentioned apropos of nothing feels kind of like I'm just doing it for brownie points. In the current chapter I'm drawing now, I feel there's enough hints and general feeling to get it across. In general I've found that people don't talk openly about their relationships to one another unless directly asked, so having a stoic character do so just to establish themselves as queer feels off for them. If I was more explicit with things, I could get that coveted BL tag though, so maybe it's something to consider

[keii4ii]

And I'm glad someone pointed out that an all-one-thing-even-if-it's-not-white-and-straight cast is not diverse... haha. It's not white, no, but it's not diverse.

I think what they mean is the existence of a minority-centric cast brings more diversity to the pool of stories out there, even if the cast within that story may not be diverse. Another thing to consider is this:

I think what's more sorely needed is diverse voices telling stories, which will inherently lead to more diverse default experience bases and perspectives.

Some creators live in monoethnic places, and they may want to tell stories with settings similar to their own home. That may entail having little to no ethnic diversity. Yet it's still valuable as far as diversity goes, because it's a perspective different from, say, conventional Hollywood. There's value in having their voices heard.

(Still doesn't mean they can't have other kinds of diversity, though -- e.g. someone mentioned Avatar's Aang being vegan as an example of non-racial, non-sexual/gender diversity representation, and I was like, that's so true!)

[trinkettrancemusic]

That's sort of precisely what I mean - storytellers from tiny isolated towns and villages are needed as much as storytellers living in Beijing or Juba or Istanbul or Toronto or New York or Tokyo or Seoul or Oslo, or rich jet setting nomads, even. Any and every perspective can be valuable and have a truth to tell.

[keii4ii]

Yeah, I knew what you meant and agree with you. I was just quoting you to respond to another person. Sorry if that wasn't clear!