Do my characters sound like adults?

[IndigoShirtProd]

I wouldn't say they sound like teenagers all the time but it sounds like your dialogue is for teenagers.

Yea, I'm the one that told him that his characters sounded like teenagers, but your overall assessment make far more sense then what I've stated. Though, I have also stated in the past that the dialogue sounds juvenile.

@JoshRaed
I think the main reason I've had issue with the dialogue in the scripts I've read is that you claim, or imply, that the characters are supposed to be down to earth and taken seriously because they all have this extensive trauma, but how they act and speak, in my eyes, doesn't line up with that. And that's all I'm going to say because, as I stated before, I don't really want to deal with you right now.

[JoshRaed]

I think the main reason I've had issue with the dialogue in the scripts I've read is that you claim, or imply, that the characters are supposed to be down to earth and taken seriously because they all have this extensive trauma, but how they act and speak, in my eyes, doesn't line up with that. And that's all I'm going to say because, as I stated before, I don't really want to deal with you right now.

Can you at least say this again in different words? Because I am very confused right now. I implied that trauma makes you more down to earth and serious than if you weren't traumatized? I'm not going to ask for more, I just want to understand this a bit.

[BoomerZ]

I don't think it's juvenile, its just not serious. Most dialogue now (MCU, most movies, almost all TV shows) doesn't have any seriousness to it. If you are going for light hearted, this works. But if you are going for actual dialogue, people don't talk like this.

Orion: Who was that?
Null: Cassandra. The caretaker of the Arcane soldiers. She‘s like if your mother was your drill sergeant was your warden. Beautiful, powerful, terrifying.

This is not how people talk, it's "clever" dialogue. That is not dialogue of the moment. It's people talking that know they are in a book or movie. Most speech comes in small spurts. A real world answer to the question would be "that's Cassandra, caretaker of the Arcane soldiers. A real hard ass." "hard ass how?" "She‘s like if your mother was also your drill sergeant. She's terrifying...." The point is a drill sergeant has power, so saying powerfull is making your point twice. A warden has power too, so not needed in the description. Both drill and wardens in the eyes of most readers means an authority figure. The other descriptives are not really needed, so sounds unnecessary. You would have to sit and think up that response, it wouldn't be of the moment.

[JoshRaed]

This is not how people talk, it's "clever" dialogue.

No part of this was meant to be clever.

Also I don't need advice about what's important to the dialogue. There's a good reason Null calls Cassandra "Beautiful, Powerful, Terrifying" and not "A real hard ass", that was a deliberate choice. I just want to know about the feel of the dialogue right now, not it's contents.

[moontokkym]

I totally get where you were coming from with the "they sound like teenagers" part, because as @Leyelle has pointed out there are snippets where they sound like they're around my age or slightly younger. I'm 25 which makes me eldest genZ but I work with gen alpha, and I wouldn't say I sound like an adult a lot of the time, and I'm just barely the target audience for "adult" rather than YA. I agree that in parts it also sounds juvenile and I did assume all the characters were at most early twenty-somethings.

I pointed out the YA target audience vibes because even the dialog where they don't explicitly say "young words" does have a YA tone to it, which makes me feel that this could be a more widespread problem than just a few line deliveries, especially if as you say these are meant to be down to earth serious focused characters.

[BoomerZ]

"clever" dialogue is dialogue that is written by someone trying to be clever. It usually has too many words and doesn't sound like counter point to counter point, back and forth dialogue. It's written for the audience, not in a voice of a character. It's fine that your choice of words were deliberate, my point is you wanted to know why or if it sounded juvenile. Because of the structure of the sentences it does. The content of dialogue makes the feel. It's literally all dialogue has, specially in a novel. (less in a comics where the visual helps.) I chose "A real hard ass." as a lead into the descriptive following. It's a question on the back and forth to lead to a more in depth answer. Otherwise you are borderline monologuing. If you want more "grown-up" dialogue, it should be a back and forth conversation. .

[JoshRaed]

Part nurse, part teacher, part guardian, part psychologist, part mother.

Doesn't that make it sound even less serious? Like "Part x, Part, y, part some other thing" feels too quirky and silly even compared to the other way. I don't know, that's just how it sounds to my ears. Like if he said it the other way he'd legitimately sound like he doesn't take this that seriously somehow. Like I hear that and imagine some kids movie trailer going "Part dog, part ninja, part robot, all awesome" or something. Or I imagine a version of the phrase being used in gone girls "Cool Girl" monologue somehow.

[moontokkym]

Trauma can do a lot of things, but there are some things that it won't do and doesn't justify, and not only can that ring false to someone with trauma, it can actually be hurtful when done really wrong. People with trauma aren't inherently more down to earth. Trauma can shatter your innocence, sense of security, sense of self, will to live even, but the reaction to it can be stuff like extreme denial or dissociation (the body and mind acts like nothing happened because if it did happen it would be devastating) and will just act outwardly basically as normal until they can't keep up the dissonance anymore. Some people regress back to a time they felt safe and happy, which can be expressed by acting more child-like. Others can become impulsive and violent out of fear it could happen again, or not caring what happens because they might as well be dead in their eyes, which can come of as immature and antisocial. Not all traumatised people get fast-tracked to "cold, stoic and battle-hardened".

A character having a traumatic backstory doesn't inherently make them more grounded if you don't also build them like a complex character that also happens to have been through trauma. There are also kids stories about incredibly traumatic things that vary tonally from quite dark to uplkfting but also child-friendly: almost all of Jacqueline Wilson's books fall into this category, so does Oscar and the Lady in Pink. I highly recommended reading some of these (they're very short as they're targeted to tweens and primary school kids) to have an idea of how you can do "for kids" but also "trauma".

That means that you can't just make a character go through some traumatic stuff and assume that will mean the characters feel more adult. Kids go through trauma all the time, it sucks, but they're still kids at heart.

[JoshRaed]

I'm not sure whether it's Null or Electra who's supposed to be the sarcastic one, but what if Electra was genuine?

They're both being genuine. Electra does not use sarcasm. Like imagine Data saying "I am fairly certain that is just your low self-esteem talking" and you'll get what Electra is supposed to come off as here. I should probably describe the sequence better.

[IndigoShirtProd]

especially if as you say these are meant to be down to earth serious focused characters.

Well, I always assumed they were, based on how he's reacted in the past to me saying that the characters talked like teenagers. I would say lines of dialogue were corny and he'd ask me how to "fix" that.

"clever" dialogue is dialogue that is written by someone trying to be clever. It usually has too many words and doesn't sound like counter point to counter point, back and forth dialogue. It's written for the audience, not in a voice of a character.

Would you be surprised that I've said something similar to him in the past?

the characters are supposed to be down to earth and taken seriously because they all have this extensive trauma

Okay, so what I meant with this statement is that because the characters went though extensive trauma, the overall tone of the story would be more serious, and therefore the characters would have dialogue that's a bit more grounded. Sorry for the poor phrasing and I think I may have come to a faulty conclusion. It's just that the way trauma is handled in his scripts make it can be hard to tell what is worth getting invested in, personally.

People with trauma aren't inherently more down to earth.

Correct. I think my stating that was a misrepresentation of his scripts and a faulty conclusion on my part. I don't think traumatized people are inherently more down to earth.

@JoshRaed Instead of waiting for me to read your latest draft, consider putting it here for others to read. I can only say so much and we've had issues misinterpreting each other in the past.

[JoshRaed]

For my characters:

Orion doesn't speak or socialize, he does not understand social interactions at all, he is constantly pushing himself too hard, and he has terrible anger issues. These are all traits informed by his trauma.

Null fundamentally believes that he is irredeemably evil and deserves whatever comes to him. He is also constantly paranoid that he will be hurt or betrayed. He refuses to take things seriously because he has zero faith that anything good will happen to get his hopes up for, especially in regards to someone caring about him or respecting him.

Silea is constantly second guessing herself and underestimating her own ability, and in that one sequence we see that she is hurting herself.

Electra believes she has no emotions at all and doesn't want to. She also has a deep hate of alcohol.

These traits all relate to their personal trauma. I don't know where it went wrong here. I guess my writing failed to communicate their psychological profiles properly.

[JoshRaed]

@JoshRaed Instead of waiting for me to read your latest draft, consider putting it here for others to read. I can only say so much and we've had issues misinterpreting each other in the past.

I put it up before, but I was told I should just finish the story already so I decided to complete a draft of the third season. But before I do that I'm going to rewrite seasons one and two so I can have a base to work off of for it, since I'm going to cut chapters and add chapters and develop the relationships between the characters. Which means I'll finish the new draft of chapter 2 and then start making the new chapters. Then when season 3 is finished, that's when I post the first two chapters. Or all of season one maybe. One or the other.

[jwabeasley]

Ah, well in these short segments it reads like acerbic wit. If it's genuine then I'd have to assume autism or something else that doesn't take the conversation partner's emotional state into consideration.

For the rest, as I've encountered elsewhere with your work, most of your issues stem from these two main sources:
1. Lack of personal life experience in both breadth and depth.
2. Lack of media literacy outside of your preferred genre types, which exacerbates 1.

If you want to be the kind of writer you say you want to be, those two elements need to be addressed. And for goodness' sake, stop getting defensive and arguing with experienced creators who you've asked for critiques from.

[JoshRaed]

"clever" dialogue is dialogue that is written by someone trying to be clever.

I wasn't trying to be clever. I was trying to specify what this character feels. No desire to be smart. I feel tempted to deliberately make it sound dumber just to kill this criticism.

Also once again, I don't need pointers for the exact words he should say instead of what he said. There is a good narrative reason why Null would not call Cassandra a "hard ass". She is the Jesus of his religion, and his legal guardian. He does not think of her as a real hard ass, he thinks of her as a merciful goddess who he wishes was his mother. He would actively gush about her at length. He would defend her actions. And Orion would not say "A real hard ass how", like if he says something he has decided that the words he just said are very important, unavoidable. Not 'What do you mean your drill sergeant is a "hard-ass", that's something he'd just let sit there and never press further on, and he'd never even consider caring about it.

He only cares about "Who is this woman" and "Is she abusing you", and even that second part is sort of out of character maybe.

I didn't clarify any of these details because they did not matter.

Here's my take on this based on your line.

"Who was that."

"Cassandra. A real hard ass."

"Who was that"

"You just said that"

"You didn't answer"

"She was the caretaker of Arcanum soldiers."

And then he'd ask if she hurt him.

Here's a new version I just made up:

Orion: Who was that? The tall woman.

Null: Cassandra. Caretaker of the Arcanum soldiers, and the Arcanum prophet.

Orion: Why did you surrender?

Null: You don't fight Cassandra. She beats you down. Besides, I have no right to attack her.

Orion: Why not?

Null: She's my superior in every respect, always has been and always will be. I deserve none of the kindness she grants me.

Orion: You were scared of her.

Null: I never said she gave a lot of it. But always more than I deserve.

Orion makes an uncomfortable face at that.

Null: What? You worrying about me?

Orion: No. Never.

[Oriflamme]

I think part of the issue is not what you have written but how you wrote it.

Let me explain. The way people talk will depend on the medium. Movie dialog will be different from the dialog in a play, which in turn will be different from book dialog. All of these are different from the way people actually talk in real life. A good writer will make all the exchange feel reel even though no conversation in real life would happen exactly like that.

For example, in movies when two people talk to each other on the telephone, the character will skip most of the basic formality of calling. Instead, after saying hello, they go directly to the reason for the call. In real life you often see a few moments where people talk about something else before circling back to the topic.

Currently, your dialog seems more written for a movie or tv series. In this format, it is a lot easier to add and justify small exchanges of words that don't really move the story forward but add flavour to the character through the performance.

Conversations in novel form don’t work as well if they consist of a lot of quick exchange of small sentences, not that you can’t use them, but they should be used infrequently. You can reduce the number of line exchanges with character actions.

Instead of a witty comeback, a character could glare at the thing that undercut/contradict what the other character said followed up by what they do after they realise that the first character has noticed the flaw in what they just said.

You also don’t have to show all the conversation. There are moments where you can give a small summary of what happened.

[kyupol]

@JoshRaed - if I were you I'd just run with it. No matter what you do, someone is always gonna find something wrong. No matter how much of your intellect you pour into it... even if your iq is above 120... someone's always gonna bash it. And don't take it personally just laugh it off...

(Funniest negative comment of my work btw: "makes the worst of anime look like Brothers Karamazov" )

[abigaillmartin]

Well said dude.

I could say more but honestly I think you guys covered everything.

And @JoshRaed even if it’s scary or uncomfortable or whatever… find some activities you could do at your school. Go to social events, get to know people even if you may not be interested in what they have to say just listen.

I have a hard time interacting with people and I am very quiet. I don’t pick up social cues I always had a hard time with that, but I kept trying even if it was painful at times. Heck, I just embarrassed myself in front of my whole class the other day, but I kept going! I learned that getting to know people from all over can help you write your characters and it enriches your life. Everyone needs friends. Even if you struggle with social interaction. That’s what my friends irl did for me. My experiences with my friends and just having that connection helped me enrich my stories.

As for reading, I don’t really read fiction. It has always been a struggle for me. I read nonfiction. I am the kind of girl who reads the dictionary for fun. I read up on history, science, the human body.

I don’t know how to help, but I hope you friends in person. Don’t put it on us.

[abigaillmartin]

Josh. I think all you need is some real life friends and some serious confidence in yourself. (Still struggling with my confidence but I’m trying every day to be kinder to myself)

You’re not going to get anywhere with letting what other people think hold you back. It is a burden more than anything else to give yourself self loathing.

[JoshRaed]

Ah, well in these short segments it reads like acerbic wit. If it's genuine then I'd have to assume autism or something else that doesn't take the conversation partner's emotional state into consideration.

Why does "You didn't ruin everything you just feel like you did" sound sarcastic here? What would she really mean? That he did ruin everything?

I can only see her saying that because she means it. The point was that she was being direct and blunt. I don't know how this reads as something else.

So... how about this exchange?

---

"I am fairly certain this is just your low self-esteem talking."

"Haha rub it in."

"I'm not rubbing anything. You did not ruin everything, that's physically impossible."

Null: Do you have to be so pedantic? Can't I just mope and hate myself in peace?

Electra: No, you can't.

Null: What the hell is your problem with me right now? Did I do something to you?

Electra gets frustrated at this point.

Electra: Argh! I'm trying to be supportive! Why do I have to specify that."

Null: Oh... I guess that makes sense.

Electra: Why would anything else make sense? How could I possibly have been insulting you?

Null: I don't know...

()

Does that work better? Or does it make the whole exchange weirder and worse? For context this emotional and social confusion is a pretty important part of her character arc.

1. Lack of personal life experience in both breadth and depth.2. Lack of media literacy outside of your preferred genre types, which exacerbates 1.

I'm going to berkeley in the fall and will have to dorm there so... I guess that will change things.

But as for fiction. What would you recommend? I know plenty of other fiction with adult conversations, like Hereditary, Alien, suicide kings, Breaking bad, Wolf of wall street, A streetcar named desire, Pride and Prejudice, and psycho. But I'm at a loss as to how to take inspiration from "A streetcar named desire" to make dialogue for my action fantasy story, especially for Null, who was inspired by sonic the hedgehog and tracer overwatch.

[JoshRaed]

If you want to be the kind of writer you say you want to be, those two elements need to be addressed. And for goodness' sake, stop getting defensive and arguing with experienced creators who you've asked for critiques from.

I don't mean to be defensive and argue. I have nothing against any of you to be angry and argue about. I don't know why I come off that way. I respect everything I'm hearing and am grateful for everyone's help. I don't know what it is about my default reaction that makes it sound defensive. Like I don't think my writing is defendable in the first place. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking about it.