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Jun 2022

I think cliches aren't necessarily a bad things. Even as a reader, I've enjoyed quite a few stories that had them - it's all a question of how, I think. If a writer executes a "cliche" well, puts an interesting spin on it, or uses it in a way that supports the plot, characters and world they're writing, I don't see anything wrong with them. It's just when, as you said, they're being used mindlessly and feel like something you've read/seen a thousand times before without anything added to them that they become a problem in writing.

Comics are always cliché in my opinion,
think about aestetic ideals.
The door opens and the good looking character everyone falls in love with comes into the room,
picture this scene and then tell me you don´t picture some sort of cliché and that´s also how you
will draw this scene

I know I did worry a lot :sweat_smile: Whenever I told people that I'm writing a romance story, they found it necessary to tell me about all the cliches I should avoid and that was honestly a bit exhausting for me because I had the story I wanted to write in my mind already and felt bad for all the cliches I included. Back then, I just tried to work around the cliches or find good reasons to still have them, kind of to defend myself and my story against people who constantly tell me to avoid those cliches.
That went on until I was halfway through writing my story and needed to think of a new ending because the ending I had in mind was apparently "too cliche". I loved that ending but my mind was set on avoiding cliches, so I told myself to write a different ending... well, last December I finished writing that story... with exactly the ending that I wanted to have but forbit myself to write :joy: I just realised that I need to enjoy reading the story and I really enjoy the ending I have written. Maybe that was my character development :sweat_smile: I started as an author, worrying too much about cliches, and turned into a writer who writes whatever seems to fit the story and characters.
And cliches wouldn't be cliches if people really hated them, because they wouldn't be that popular. E.g. all those Christmas romance movies are very similar but people still love them (me included :joy:)

I used to really, really care about tropes and cliches and had this big desire to show that I could subvert them all, but I've chilled out a lot since then. I found that without at least some recognisable story tropes, readers really struggle to connect with a work. Often works that people say are "really imaginative" are actually just "like something I already like but with one spicy twist", and half the time the twist is just "everyone is miserable". :sip:

A lot of marginalised people are actually really keen to read "it's like this popular thing... but about people like me". They actually kind of want the cliches, and to see somebody they can relate to getting to do all the cliches.
So that's my niche; it's like a shounen manga! It has a hot-blooded protagonist with spikey hair and a big sword! The characters are all colour coded like Power Rangers! The red one is hot tempered, the green one is nurturing, the blue one is the smart one and the purple one is strange and spooky! BUT the characters are nearly all from marginalised identities; LGBTQ+, autistic etc. and instead of objectifying or sidelining women like a lot of shounen manga, it's a story where the women get to be powerful main characters, Turns out, plenty of people want to read that, and I definitely want to draw that, so I don't really care if some grumpy-pants somewhere is all "HUMPH! This is just Naruto for SJWs!" 'Cause yeah, it pretty much is! :sweat_02:

Well like I have read quite a few times and agree with, cliches are tools. It all depends on whether the person who uses them is skilled enough to use them well. Cliches do get the story rolling in my opinion (because how do some stories play out the way they do? The chain of events might be a bit absurd to pull of without cliches)

Not a bit, old chum! Part of the reason I wrote Nixvir was to create an OEL manga that would throw the cliches of that art style or genre out the window to focus more on Western narrative devices. So, if the story sounds a bit cliched, it is perhaps the result of that.

I have yet to use a popular cliche since i've barely just started writing again but when I was younger I used a cliche in a story I wrote (mean girl competes with mc) and it was enjoyable for me to write. It would be more fun for me to write about cliches than read someone using one but it really just depends on how overused it is.

In certain circumstances, I guess:

  • When I personally find the cliche grating. I don't like to make stuff I don't like, straightforward enough :stuck_out_tongue:

  • When I feel like including certain cliches would invoke uncomfortable assumptions about me as an author. For instance,
    Troubled But Cute character1 -> 'I'm whiny and want attention/romanticizing depression/abuse', or
    Token Minority -> 'I'm moral signalling in a failed attempt to be woke', or
    genius with no common sense -> 'I think I'm a genius because I have no common sense'
    (I'll still use these cliches, I'll just be super nervous about it as well :'D)

  • When the only reason I'm thinking of including the cliche in the first place is to solve a plot problem, and it serves no other function. For instance, if I need other characters to explain everything about the world to the main character, I'm going to think 'there's gotta be a better way to justify this that doesn't involve amnesia' XD

EDIT: Oh, come to think of it, I also have a tendency to want to avoid character dynamic stereotypes. For instance, idk why but lots of anime het romances have the guy with darker hair than the girl, and people with desaturated/cold hair colours tend to be quiet and serious while people with bright/warm hair colours tend to be cheerful or boisterous. Oh, and the serious, brooding one is anyways an introvert for some reason :'D So my first instinct is to go 'nope, the black haired girl goes out with the blond guy, and the white haired guy is a super cheerful cinnamon roll while the red-haired guy is a grumpy boi and also angsty extroverts. Also cheerful nihilists and depressed idealists. Also it's the quiet one who has 2 brain cells.

And then as my story develops and character dynamics naturally settle into something slightly different than my original intention, I end up falling into some of those cliches anyway XD

The amnesia cliche doesn't bother me for some reason.

Mood. I’m the same way. I don’t actively avoid cliches either. I just go with whatever feels “right”.

I feel like some cliches may come by accident. Sometimes we feel like we found something original but then you notice, “wait…everyone one is doing this.”

I definitely have the black hair and white hair duo trope. I noticed even from other people’s covers that this is sort of common. I think it is somewhat rooted in this idea of Yin and Yang. That’s why I chose to do it and maybe other people took from a similar inspiration.

You are right about cliches.

For me, It doesn't matter if some scene or plot is always the usual so long as it makes sense and brings satisfaction. I would prefer it over something that came out of nowhere or broke an established ground rule for the sake of the story to move on.

I am more worried about having my story familiar with an already existing content, some say that my Main protagonist's first appearance is similar to Conan who was born in the middle of a battlefield.

Though it is familiar, in my comic is less of a battle and more of a massacre, and my main character was saved by a divine entity, leaving him as the last member of his tribe and raised by another to grow up being a great man while Conan gets to grow with his tribes and raised as a warrior.

Cliches is predictable but it can be satisfying and more safer than some plot twist or subversion that could potentially ruin the story.

I want to point out that having cliches in a story isn't always a bad thing. You can have a cliche and you can use it to your advantage by making it your own!

I know I have one or two cliches in my story, but I think I do a darn good job or ensuring that they are unique, and even though you see them, you're like "hm that's a good way to good about it".

As a horror writer too, I will absolutely use clichés to my advantage :smiley: Just like you said there's a time and place for them!

I used to care a lot of about tropes but then I started paying attention more to how the story is executed. People love to rag on werewolf stories but when I started writing one and putting my style on it - it didn't feel so "cringey".

A story will always be cringey, imo, if you follow a trope/cliche to the letter. Harry Potter was groundbreaking for many of us for the "kid goes to a magical school" trope. Every other "magical school" story seems to fall flat. The only story I thought, aside from Harry Potter, that "worked" in the genre was the Charlie Bone series. The author wasn't trying to write about a magical school in a magical universe. She wrote about a group of magical kids attending a "regular" private school in Britian. Write in whatever way is most natural to you.

Okay so here's the thing... I avoid cliches that make people miserable. For example; SUPERMAN BUT HE'S EVIL! I don't want to fall in the stupid deconstruction trap that California writers tend to get themselves into (Picard, Last Jedi, etc.).

With that being said, outside of Naota and Nikado (who's genres I have problems with), I gush over the cliches/tropes with other isekaiers that show up in the series.

I'm also planning a superhero comic out and its just me gushing over the positive cliches and negative cliches of superhero comics without being cynical. Like chicks flipping around in high heels, people talking with goofy Russian accents, me butchering science or just how flashy and ridiculous I can get in general (I want this series to be the pinnacle of how silly I can get).

This is probably the best way to go about it. I don't know if it's even possible to have a work with no clichés whatsoever. Like you said, if you're able to spin something interesting out of it or it serves your work well, go for it. Subverting expectations just for the sake of it can lead to some really weird writing decisions.

Yeah, this ties into the whole problem with recent Star Wars movies and Game of Thrones.

When the writer writes to surprise the audience, not to satisfy the audience, it tends to... well, end up not feeling very satisfying. The problem is that some people who only understand writing on a surface level think "surprising twist" = "good writing", because famously good stories often have really shocking twists or reveals. But in actuality, a good twist is one that the reader could have predicted because all the clues were there, but they didn't. A good twist makes perfect sense in an unexpected way.

Coming up with an original idea isn't hard. Like you can literally just use a random generator like this:


and get stuff like:

Lynne is a giant fuelled by hatred, who stalks teenagers and keeps their fingers in a jar. Detective Brooklin, a virgin from Waukesha, knows she has to stop her. Eventually, Brooklin captures the villian and wins back the respect of her estranged family.

Yep. This story about a virgin detective with an estranged family who captures an angry giantess who... collects teenagers' fingers is definitely original! Good job, computer! Nobody else has ever come up with that!
...But that's exactly the problem. Coming up with a story that's different from anything anyone else has made by just throwing together weird, random combinations is so easy even a computer could do it. Coming up with a story that's unique but also thematically coherent with some kind of logic that makes it all feel like it goes together is the hard bit. Similarly, if somebody guesses your story's twist, it's easy to just change the solution, but not necessarily good, because it usually means that all the clues pointing to the original solution no longer make sense.
"Ha! You thought that one of these characters who would make thematic sense would kill the big bad! Well, I fooled you! It's actually this random character who was hundreds of miles away and got here impossibly fast and whose character arc had nothing to do with any of this! I'm a good writer because you didn't predict it!" YES I AM STILL SALTY ABOUT THE GAME OF THRONES FINALE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-! :eyebrows:

I say it depends. Cliches are unavoidable, but one can pick and choose which to use and avoid if they want to.

1 month later

closed Jun 20, '22

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