Done is better than perfect: a thread

[LCT_m_a_d]

It's not like they're the windows into the soul or anything

[Llyrel]

I... wouldn't necessarily agree on the fact that the art of Western comics sucks, though it's also true that my experience is mostly related to European comics, which count plenty of amazing artists: Alessandro Barbucci (W.i.t.c.h., Skydoll, Monster Allergy, Ekho), Barbara Canepa (also Witch and Skydoll + E.N.D.), Loputyn (Cotton Tales), Emmanuel Civiello (Korrigan), Robin Recht (Elric), Olivier Ledroit (Wika), whoever did the drawings for the Dante's Inferno comics... there's still plenty of good stuff around

That said, though, it IS true that if you look closely at a lot monthly/weekly series with a more critical eye, you're going to notice a ton of shortcuts and even ridiculous mistakes: messy perspectives, wonky lineart, huge heads, distorted faces and so on and so forth. Heck, even if you look closely at the artworks of some of the artists I mentioned, you're probably gonna notice that their stuff ain't 100% polished either: you can see the paper texture of Loputyn's watercolors bleeding through her comic frames, Alessandro Barbucci's amazingly detailed drawings don't necessarily always come with a super polished lineart... and in this one Dylan Dog comic I was reading just today, I noticed that the artist probably didn't use a ruler AT ALL for their perspectives, and IT SHOWS XD

So I definitely agree with you on the fact that striving for extreme perfection in comics isn't very useful and can actually be counter-productive: looking at the work of other artists -including the good ones- can definitely help you figure out that we're all human after all, and that we ALL make mistakes. Which shouldn't be used as an excuse to simply publish whatever crap comes to mind, of course... but focusing on doing the thing instead of constantly worrying about reaching a perfection that doesn't exist in the professional word either is definitely a good piece of advice

[DokiDokiTsuna]

1. Done is better than perfectYou know I have a bit of a controversial opinion about this phrase, since it's quite popular.What has been helpful to me most recently is not weighing done vs perfect, but becoming more aware and appreciative of what "I value as perfect" vs "unhealthy perception of perfect that I've punished myself for". I think having a clearer understanding of what feels perfect helps me get things done (often quicker than when I was focusing on timelines).

I should also disclaim I am also creating art solely for the expression and joy, as opposed to producing art for an income. I think those who consider themselves "businessmen" and treat their art as "products" should probably not treat this as gospel but for those who love creating art shouldn't feel like the only things that matter is what is consider done, and getting this done shouldn't come at the cost of things that matter.

I see what you mean there...I think the real value in 'done is better than perfect' is not the literal meaning, but in what you learn once you accept it as an attitude.

You work faster->you learn shortcuts; you start to understand the bare minimum you need to do to make something look nice...and in doing so, you teach yourself fundamental techniques and strategies, which will improve the quality of work that you purposely spend more time on.

You focus on finishing art pieces->you train yourself out of overthinking and second guessing yourself at every step. You also start to produce more work, which is better for practice overall, and helps you feel like you aren't wasting your time.

You force yourself to stop and move on at some point-> you learn to be satisfied with your work, imperfections and all. You may even morph this into a healthy habit of taking breaks when frustrated: instead of staying at your desk until you feel like you've tried hard enough, you leave when you feel like you've done enough. And later you can come back to the piece once the emotions have subsided, and clearly evaluate how much more attention it deserves.

Like, you can get a lot of valuable strategies out of the mindset, even if you don't embrace it universally. I know I have. ^^

[amortelito]

I know that the ideal is to have good art and be able to keep up with the updates. But in some cases that is simply not possible.

Nobody is saying you should produce trash, but it's true that sometimes sacrifices are necessary.

If my comic was more elaborate I would abandon it because I simply can't spend that much time making it.

There are beautiful comics that I followed that are already abandoned after the first episode and , as a reader, I would prefer a comic that was not that great visually but be able reach the ending. I would definitely chose a comic that is updated then a perfect one that is not coming back.

(I feel the need to say again that I'm not saying that you shouldn't put effort into your comic or that low quality art is a great option )

[darthmongoose]

I think there's a frustrating issue when it comes to manga vs western comics in terms of polish which is:

Most people in western countries have not read manga that is the equivalent of a cheap adaptation of Nancy Drew.

If you've ever spent time in Japan, and gone into the glorious treasure trove that is a local "Book Off" store, you'll know that actually there is loads of low-quality manga, absolute dross that's churned out as cheap commercial tie-ins or adaptations or just third-tier stories in less well known mags. The stuff we're getting in the West is usually such a narrow band of just like... the better stuff from the top magazines like Shounen Jump or Afternoon that's made by the top artists for a big audience who are core manga fans and care about quality. It's not indicative at all of the wider quality of manga produced in that country. Have you ever seen those manga that adapt a videogame and how kinda crappy they are.... Like, here's what the official manga looks like for Persona 5, a game with huge sales and a massive worldwide release:

This is.... roughly on-par art-wise with loads of mid-level sort of comics here on Tapas. It was probably made with the same kind of required turnover as a webcomic artist might need to work to. It's not bad, but this is the kind of level of work that it's reasonable to expect on that kind of budget. It's mediocre when you stare at it, like... the placement of the features on the faces is... well, it gets weirder the longer you look, but the thing is, I wouldn't be scrutinising this art like this if I was reading it, I'd be like "oh damn, what happens next! I love these characters! Yay, Persona comic!"

I've worked on that kind of Nancy Drew type commercial stuff (not Nancy Drew, but other similar IP). The deadlines are punishing and the pay is awful, even when a big publisher or IP is involved. There just isn't time to spend making it a beautiful Eisner-winning masterpiece, and most of the audience don't care because they're kids, fans who aren't usually comics readers and are more into the brand than you, the artist. To them, and the people who commission it, you're just a tool, and if you destroy yourself to make it look good while being within the deadline, they won't pat you on the back, they'll just keep hiring you and you'll run yourself into the ground for your pride, and it won't even get you anywhere, because the talent scouts at Marvel aren't looking at random licensed comics. You have to learn where to spend your effort and what's actually a reasonable amount of effort to put into a project or you'll burn out or destroy your eyes or your hands or your shoulders or your back...

So yeah, done is a hell of a lot better than perfect, and it's a lesson that if you don't learn it, you almost certainly won't make it as a pro. Comics are a storytelling medium, so if you sacrifice moving a compelling narrative along at a gripping pace, or getting the work to the client on time for making every page a perfect standalone artistic masterpiece, you'll shoot yourself in the foot either in terms of building a fandom or just making enough money to live, or you'll physically damage yourself.

[migxmeg]

When I look at panels I fussed over 3 months ago, I regret spending the extra time because they still look pretty bad from where I sit now . I'd rather get better at being faster and faster at being better while keeping a story moving. I hope no one is judging too hard but if they are... oh well!!

[DokiDokiTsuna]

This is.... roughly on-par art-wise with loads of mid-level sort of comics here on Tapas. It was probably made with the same kind of required turnover as a webcomic artist might need to work to. It's not bad, but this is the kind of level of work that it's reasonable to expect on that kind of budget. It's mediocre when you stare at it, like... the placement of the features on the faces is... well, it gets weirder the longer you look, but the thing is, I wouldn't be scrutinising this art like this if I was reading it, I'd be like "oh damn, what happens next! I love these characters! Yay, Persona comic!"

...Damn, THAT's your threshold for deciding the art looks off?? O_O That's just 'normal' in my book; like I can see what weird stuff you're talking about, but I would never look at that and even begin to think 'ehh, could be better'...

I was gonna say that not all the 'bad Western comics' I've read are cheap adaptations...most of them I can just barely remember since I read a couple issues and then bolted once I realized the art was never going to improve; but I know quite a few of them were big names from DC, and of course there was that long, convoluted trek through a dozen different Transformers comics (I started with WINDBLADE and got very very lost)...

...But honestly, I don't know if there would be a point, since your standards seem to be a lot higher than mine. ^^;;;

[Caro]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that Western comics culture just is not the same as in other parts of the world because it was sequestered into mainstream cape comics and hidden away in comic shops instead of being out in more general spaces like convenience stores and grocery stores and the reasons for this is a long complicated history that I couldn’t do justice myself. But in the end, people aren’t just picking up the latest copy of [blank] for themselves or their kid on an impulse buy on their way home from work. There is more competition in Japan because it occupies a much broader space and there’s a lot more money to be made. Where here a lot of our richest people are tech dudes, a lot of the richest people in Japan are manga dudes.

There has always and will always be incredible work that is on par with the quality of manga we see (just as there is as much rough looking manga as we have rough looking comics) but it gets completely buried because of the comics culture, or rather, lack thereof.

That said, if you want to fill any void in your manga experience I can point to my pretty sizable alternative manga collection where the art can get extremely rough, choppy, and dare I say, BAD??? (Heta-Uma was a movement in manga essentially meaning “bad but good” spearheaded by some of my favorite artists like ‘King Terry’ and Ebisu Yoshikazu).

[Mallory]

So I personally never read HunterxHunter but my partner did, and I remember him complaining about how the art just like, randomly takes a nose dive. Behold - published manga art from a very popular IP (apparently those are his sketches because he ran out of time before the deadline):

I work in a library and have picked up loads of comics from all kinds of countries that had some really questionable quality art, but if you read ANY industry advice for comics, what you hear is always the same: you get hired again because you don't miss deadlines and are a nice person to work with. Nowhere in that list of requirements is "magnificent art all the time".

As a hobbyist, I guess you're the judge of both for yourself. But IMO even as a hobbyist, I value finishing pages over sitting over concepts. Sometimes you just have to accept that what you can do now is good enough and move on.

(Psst - if you want to read really good western comics: Saga by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples is magnificent, but aimed squarely at adults. For a more "all ages" comic, I really enjoyed 5Worlds by Mark and Alexis Siegel).

[zed_parade]

Totally agree! Indeed my motto is "Sbaglia in fretta" which is italian for "get it wrong quickly!". Many mistakes = many comics = more growth!

[alexlcuri07]

This is kind of where I feel the real point is, so to kind of piggy back off of this-- it's not really done vs perfect. It's done consistently vs. perfect. If you consistently meet deadlines, consistently put out art that is equivalent to what people have grown to expect of you, and consistently appeal to your audience then you will find more success.

People want to see consistent continuation, and perfection doesn't always lend itself well to this.

(Which I should know as someone who learned this the hard way after I got caught up on editing older chapters of my story instead of just pushing on and capitalizing on my progress.)

[likhoradka]

The only time I really notice if there are mistakes in any given panel is when it's a huge mistake or I'm studying the art. Otherwise, as long as the story is good, I just don't care.

As for manga being more polished, I've seen some scary stuff. Tooko Miyagi is an artist I like, but her proportions can be...oof. Generally speaking, the stuff that's getting translated and published in western countries are going to be the more successful and polished titles, not the more independent weird stuff, so I don't think it's much of a good comparison.

There's also the factor of what sort of team are these people working with to meet deadlines? A large team, a handful of people, or just one person? Are they on a tight deadline, or can they publish whenever they have time to get it done? (Like, Skydoll is absolutely gorgeous, but the time between chapter 3 and 4? 11 years.)

[migxmeg]

Yeah... I often forget that a lot of really polished comics are produced by a whole team. It doesn't make any sense to compare oneself or smaller one-person work with that! In the case of feeling like that's a standard you need to measure up to while getting work done on a schedule... ugh, no.

[Kann]

Done is better than perfect when I cannot nail that pose, so I just leave it looking a bit wonky.

[Prometheus]

I've always stressed with myself that everything needs to look GREAT or else I'll get flack from readers. And then, a while back, I bought the volume of HunterxHunter, and I realized that the eyes were not 100% the same. Which made me feel better. And after looking closer at manga art, I realized that - in many places, it's very simplistic. BUT IT WORKS.

There are even panels where lines go out of the borders. I think, as creators, we get stuck on thinking that we need to reach this insane quality to have our comic gain any worth or attention. But in reality, just doing it is enough. And doing it with joy makes it even better.

[aqua03]

As someone who has struggled a lot with perfectionism in the past and in many ways still is, this topic has been really encouraging to me to see.

I remember that at an old Gaming College I used to take classes at a few years back, they had a sign up in the lobby that said, "Perfect is the enemy of good" -Voltaire, and I realized that's a really good thing to keep in mind as well I feel.

And besides, there are plenty of things out there that are popular and successful despite being far from perfect as well (Like the aforementioned Hunter X Hunter for example). So that's good to keep in mind as well.

[rajillustration]

I would say we have exactly the same amount of quality vs not quality as other countries, but in the States we only get the crème de la crème translated into English. It's expensive to port that stuff over, even digitally. The comics industry is mainly money-motivated, and the truth is, most of these publishers aren't paying for good art, they're paying for fast art. You can't have good quality and a fast turn around for the cheap. That's a global phenomenon.

Nancy Drew in particular has been a serial pushing out cheap hastily written books for like decades. Not really a surprise it's on the meh side.

Like speaking as an artist that has had many a illustration job--I don't put those jobs in my portfolio for a reason. They are quick, they tend to be cheap, I just finish the job and move on. Would be cool to get paid 2k to make a really fancy illustration, but most of the time it's like...really simple art that is pretty basic and a little boring. But hey--at least I get paid, and my client is happy. Whether or not other people are happy years down the line is not really my problem at that point.

[ArthurAleksei]

Well-written thread. I've definitely noticed the thing about western comics.

[vothnthorvaldson]

'Done is better than perfect' is not working in my opinion because it is missing a step: "done well".

Just done, with no quality requirement except being completed: not enough
Thriving for prefection: likely conterproductive.
It has to sit somewhere in the middle.

Regarding Western vs Eastern I dislike both styles in their stereotypical forms and find there can be half-assed aspects in both, so I don't have much to say on that.

[Rhonder]

This mantra is very important to me and something that I'm super glad to have heard right when I was getting started in webcomics a few years back. I do worry at times about "rushing" too much and producing somewhat sloppy work at times... But it's always reassuring to see beta readers not even notice many of those little mistakes/weirdness on a first pass or even until I mention it afterwards.

This basically sums up my feelings exactly:

When I look at panels I fussed over 3 months ago, I regret spending the extra time because they still look pretty bad from where I sit now . I'd rather get better at being faster and faster at being better while keeping a story moving

Like, I still have a lot of learning and improvement to do as an artist, so I find even when I do spend way more time on particular panels or whatever... the results aren't usually drastically better enough to warrant the extra time spent. And by continuing to push out a lot of work quickly (aka, practice) I notice my skills continuing to improve at a pretty acceptable rate anyways so... it's a win-win, I guess. "Better at being faster, and faster at being better", I love that!

Lastly, definitely agree with others in the thread though about trying to find a good balance and not being too complacent / cutting too many corners. All good things in moderation, y'know? You still want the end product to look good, even if not completely amazing, and it's good to think from time to time about which corners you're cutting and why. My rule of thumb is that any shortcuts I take should either only drop the visual quality very little, or be on par with what I was doing before, but faster, and should preferably improve the overall presentation as well.

For example I've recently started using the marquee and path tools to generate my speech bubbles where I used to hand draw them before. At worst it's a side-grade, but at best it gives me neater, more consistent and easily editable bubbles than what i had before. Another one is my shading- I've been trying to simplify it a bit recently. At worst, it's less detailed, at best it actually removes some visual clutter and saves time on tiny details that were barely noticeable when zoomed out at regular reading size.