Erotic BL webcomic. How far can I go before I cross the porn line?

[QueenofBabyLoon]

To me, the depiction of same-sex intercourse (here, between two men) becomes porn when the feelings are gone. When two characters do not have feelings for each other, their sexual encounters should be based on mutual respect and this should show by there not being a struggle for sexual domination and a desire to submit one character to sexual practices that he does not want to take part in. When two characters do have feelings for each other, there needs to be some emotion shown (it doesn't have to be "I love yous" all over the place) during intercourse.

The moment respect is lost is when you cross the line into pornography and God knows the LGBTQ2+ community doesn't need any more caricaturing or objectification. They've got it bad already.

[elyss]

Webtoons is a weird one because it's a Korean company and they have SUPER strict laws on things like nudity and pornography. What frustrates me about the site though is that there are at times nude things that don't get taken off because of popularity. Most people will just blur things. I honestly recommend looking at sites like Lezhin. They have very erotic web comics but also censor them. They'd be a good place to look into on how to do more... tasteful?.... censored sex scenes.

[NickRowler]

When it comes to movies, the difference between R and Porn when it comes to sexual content is that in an R film you can not show penetration. My guess is you can probably show two people in bed, however you can't show any naughty bits touching.

[Eightfish]

I totally disagree.
Porn is about sex, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It doesn't have to be about "domination" and "a desire to submit one character to sexual practices that he does not want to take part in". I agree that much of porn is that, but it doesn't have to be. I've read plenty of self described porn comics where the sex is based on mutual love and respect. For example, this one which is literally nothing but sex but doesn't have any of the things you mentioned. Or this one for an LGBT example.

[AniStaciaArt]

Does webtoon really pull a comic for a topless guy because I'm going to be really mad if I have to change my main character's combat outfit for Webtoon. I already had to redo several pages of my comic for tumblr because of a hint of hospital gown butt.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

Wasn't the question about when sexual intercourse becomes porn? Indeed, you are right, porn is about nothing but sex. I agree.

[elyss]

I feel that there can be no feelings between two people besides wanting something physical. The unfortunate reality is that when people see BL, they expect dubious consent which is extremely unhealthy and very toxic. BL has become synonymous with what you describe (and I don't blame you because I feel the same way). It's a genre that I feel will never be able to be genuinely used for a healthy emotional (or even casual) relationship between two men which is a big loss. At the end of the day though, it's up to us creators to provide good relationships between consenting men and show that whoever tops ins't worth it's own story arch that ends with what often feels less than consensual sex.

[Eightfish]

Wasn't the question about when sexual intercourse becomes porn?

Haha, I guess I did get a little off topic there. I guess porn is when the story exists to serve the sex scenes and non-porn is when the sex scenes exist to further the story?
Although by webtoons standards it's more just nudity = porn.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

You know what. I think I have more of a problem with what we consider traditional "yaoi" (the Japanese thing) rather than with BL. You know, heterosexual woman making a very sexualized story between two men where there is a lot of emotional abuse and blackmailing, where the sex scenes generally include fetishism (nothing against fetishism, but God knows that needs a lot of discussion between two partners before attempting it) and often rape.

And where you end up wondering why the author has to make it so cruel and graphic. Is it some fantasy (nothing wrong with fantasies) of hers that she is too fearful to transpose onto a female-male relationship because people will think she is projecting (is it me or is there way more sexual abuse portrayed in yaoi than there is in manga showcasing heterosexual relationships)?

I actually like the BL on here. Often it is closer to the reality of how relationships work (whether there are feelings involved or not).

[QueenofBabyLoon]

First of all, I am sorry for my curt reply. It came out much more impolite than what I was aiming for. I reread myself and was asking myself "Who hurt you, geez?".

I think I would have to agree with your description. You are absolutely right. Feelings need not be involved in a sexual encounter. However, that does not make it porn, per se. If the story has a need for that sexual encounter, then it is not porn. If the story revolved around sexual encounters without the characters getting any growth out of those encounters, then we've got porn.

You said it better than this, though.

[bakasama25]

Actually Lezhin is Korean too. I find it interesting that company managed to get away with the sex scenes. It must be all those BL comics there.

[Eightfish]

I promise, I didn't read it that way at all! Actually I think it's quite nice to have a civil discussion about an odd topic like this with strangers on the internet.

[Eightfish]

You know what. I think I have more of a problem with what we consider traditional "yaoi" (the Japanese thing) rather than with BL.

Same. I agree that there's nothing wrong with having violent fantasies, but they shouldn't be portrayed in-universe as normal and loving.

Seriously, I don't understand how these stories can be so twisted into toxic versions of heterosexual relationships that something solely about gay men can manage to be homophobic and misogynist at the same time.

I think maybe you're right about women making these because they want to fantasize about violent, controlling relationships, but with a level of distance between the reader and the character by making him a different gender.

There was a tumblr blog I used to follow dedicated to ranting about this kind of thing. Unfortunately it was killed in the purge, but luckily some of her stuff still survives on.. um.. Vimeo?

[booklove]

I didn't know that this thread would spark such debate. I was just wondering whether from a scale from light saber to veiny sea cucumber, how much can I draw. Can i draw hand contact with the pee pee but he s wearing pants ?

[LordVincent]

On webtoon: no sexual content whatsoever. Don't even risk having a page where they talk sexually with their clothes on, much less one with censored intercourse. Their site doesn't allow it.

Tapas: sexual intercourse alllowed as long as you censor the dicks, any penetration and sexually displayed anuses and vaginas.

Patreon: uncensored sexual content allowed as long as the characters aren't minors and it doesn't feature incest, bestiality or to some extent rape (this last one is apparently very much up to patreon's own interpretation just what is and isn't allowed)

So basically, make the comic how you want it. Upload the original version on patreon. Must be patreon-only (if you upload adult content as an official post patreon can and probably will strike down on your account). Your patreon account must be marked as an 18+ page. Bear in mind this means you vanish from patreon's internal search engine, so make sure the link to your patreon is easy for people to find on the other sites where you upload.
Upload the full but censored version on tapas.
Upload a version of the comic that has the nsfw pages COMPLETELY REMOVED on webtoon. Leave a notification image on the relevant posts informing readers that the missing pages can be read for free on tapas.

[JRHoch]

The dreaded hospital gown butt!

[elyss]

ikr? I recommened lezhin specifically because it was Korean. Their comics skirt the rules to give as much as legally possible.

[AniStaciaArt]

The most fearsome of all the butts.

[bakasama25]

Yeah, those have a lot of sex but the censorship of the naughty biits ai bit, odd.

Tapas also as a lot examples of how far the creators can get with nudity, gor and sex. Those of comics seem to be Chinese webtoons or anything by Darkbox.

[elyss]

I agree completely on that. I don't like to personally use things like tapas or webtoons as a judge because they seem to be pretty back and forth on what they'll allow