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Mar 2023

I think this is more the fault of the writer if they come off as boring. Wesley Crusher was written to be an audience stand-in in Star Trek TNG and he's generally one of the least favorite characters in the series. Bella Swan was also written to be an audience stand-in, I believe, but she's also a character who would become more dynamic if the series had been written to be a proper fantasy with her romance with Edward as a secondary plotline.

In general, I believe that the best protagonists are fully-developed characters living in a fully-realized world. They don't have to be perfect on page one but by page 250, they need to have undergone some type of growth. I've noticed over the years that a lot of web fiction writers tend to delete all "negative" character traits in favor of more generic ones. Most of the stuff I read is female-led, so I've read a lot of stories with traits like being a hot mess, single mom or are smart and sensitive because they have brown hair and read Jane Austen. Those MCs are boring and make boring choices. A fully developed character influences the plot in some way. Generic MCs do not.

this is true. I think a lot of writers think protagonists need to be "likable" or readers will not be interested, or, in the age of socialmedia, critique the story immediately without finishing the character arc. Now that I've thought a lil more about it, the interesting protagonists out there are the ones full of flaws and trying to become better.

That said, I also think it's a strategy-- Bella Swan is bland, but I also think her blandness means any one can put themselves into the romance.

That's the idea of a self-insert style character. But if you read the Twilight Renaissance posts on Tumblr/Pinterest (highly recommend btw), Bella had a lot of potential to be a fully-developed character IF the series would have been developed beyond the scope of a normal paranormal romance.

Yup. They pick the most generic character traits and slap them onto the character in an attempt to combat the horrible "strong female character" trope.

i honestly have a higher preference for fully realized protagonists than the cardboard cutout protag for readers to project themselves onto. that's like i'm aware some folks will go for "relatability" with their characters or their protags but i think good characters you can connect with can be literally anything or anyone if written well

i guess it's coz i'm most used to coming across those critiques of "i couldn't get into X movie or Y comic because i couldn't relate to the protag" and i don't think it should be a matter of having some generic relatable character but someone you can empathize with regardless of who they are or what their alignment is

like one of my favorite books from childhood was told from the perspective of this porcelain rabbit doll ('the miraculous journey of edward tulane') and as you go through the story you heart genuinely aches for this rabbit and for some of the people it falls into the hands of and i'm pretty sure i cried by the end of it coz i'd gotten so attached to this well dressed rabbit.

so i think if anything it's kind of a shared responsibility of the writer to have really made their protagonist(s) fully realized as a person and on readers to at least try to have some level of empathy when reading a character in a story where even if they cant relate to certain experiences or personal attributes they can put themselves in this characters shoes and feel their emotions and understand their motivations or reservations

I think self-insert protags can work as part of a great story, but is never a great character themselves. That said, I do think relatability is a pretty big part of having a great protagonist, but I'm gonna pull up an old comment of mine to clarify what I mean by 'relatability':

As for examples, one of my favourite protags is BestelleEstelle Bright from Trails in the Sky; I'm not that similar to her on a superficial level, but I found her quite relatable just because the way she was written felt very human ^^;

I appreciate your bringing up "relatability" as an important factor for protagonists. I've noticed that many writers, when trying to create the "perfect" MC, tend to strip the character down to a superficial level. I've read a ton of fan fiction, self-insert female protagonists, and "strong female character" protagonists who are all pretty much the same person even down to their choice of underwear. (Wish I was kidding, but I'm not.)

Even if a character has a completely different personality than me, I sympathize more with the characters who are multi-dimensional and experience the highs and lows of personhood.

Thinking about it. The only times I can appreciate a one-note protagonist is if they are playing a type, like Jake Peralta from Brooklyn 99 or Leslie Knope from Parks and Rec. The casts are caricatures and generally relatable across the field.

This is an interesting topic.

I like protagonists with flaws, problems, conflicts I can relate to. And sometimes
things I can´t relate to. I´m not talking about the little struggles like a hero who
has some self doubt

Oldest example I can remember from my childhood are Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck.
I loved and still love Donald, he is a loser, choleric, doing things that are wrong but never
a villain, I can 100% relate to him. Mickey on the other hand is boring, I skipped Mickey
Mouse comics when I bought a comic book.

I love antihero protagonists, Jordi Bernet´s Torpedo as a comic book example. He is a horrible person.
I can´t relate to him but it´s interesting to read.
Charles Bukowski´s alter ego Henry Chinaski who is an alcoholic who is struggling with
women, work, his addiction and society in general.
Finn & Jake, who were mentioned by @TroyVSTheWorld are great characters too, for me
mainly because they are crazy and funny, Jake is a pretty rough character with good intentions.

I faced the boring protagonist problem a lot of times. The conflict of the stories that I wrote needed
a protagonist with noble ambitions and in the end the protagonist always turned out to be the most
boring character in the story, the villain was the most interesting, the sidekicks the coolest character
etc. but this is something that happens in a lot of famous stories. Star Wars. Luke Skywalker is really
boring. Han Solo is cool. R2D2 is cute and Darth Vader is bad ass.

Some stories make it hard to write intersting main characters. One of them is the classic "chosen one
has to save the world" trope. This depends on who you ask though, some people think that Superman
is an intersting protagonist

yeah I was thinking specifically about Luke haha. I guess my question should've been more like "examples of great good guy hero-type protagonist." Now that yall brought up antiheroes I can think of a few.
Superman is interesting because he's an icon of the hero type, I haven't read too many of his stories, but I find that the one that makes him interesting are the ones that deal with his relationship with being the icon of a hero who saves the world.

Examples of good guy hero type protagonists who are not a satire?
One punch man is a satire in my opinion and I really like the protagonist because he
is bored / apathetic.

One good guy protagonist which comes to my mind is Indiana Jones, he doesn´t have
flaws accept being scared of snakes and often stumbling into difficult situations but he is
bad ass and interesting. But that has a lot to do with Harrison Ford, imagine Indy would be
played by Tom Hanks. Harrison Ford has that charming rogue smile

I had to go away and think about it because my brain went blank on series where I either liked the protagonist best, or at least felt like it was conceivable somebody could.

Blank slate protagonists do have a purpose, usually it's either to make the story feel very immediate and allow the reader to put themselves into the Fantasy (blank slate like Bella Swan who is meant to be a blank that a teenage girl could insert herself into), or it's because the plot is the main star of the show, and the protagonist is more like a viewpoint (Garviel Loken in the Warhammer Horus Heresy books is a pretty bland character with very little impact on the narrative, because he's more like a viewpoint for the reader so they can see all this epic sci-fi lore unfold on a more human level). A lot of videogame protagonists lean a bit blank slate-ish for obvious reasons.

Then on the other hand, you get a story where the character's journey, and the changes they go through are key. Anime are often pretty good for this. Spike from Cowboy Beebop, for example, or Ed Elric from Fullmetal Alchemist. Some series inspired by anime, like The Owl House or Avatar the Last Airbender, also have interesting protagonists in Luz and Aang. These characters aren't just intended to be a viewpoint to experience the story through; they ARE the story. The story is shaped by these characters' decisions, especially their bad decisions.

Making a character with a strong personality is always a risk because people in the audience might not like them. Like Shinji from Evangelion. He's technically an amazing protagonist, with deep ties to the plot, a very distinctive personality and character development throughout the series.... and some people really don't like him. They're like "UGH he's so whiny! He's such a loser!" It can be hard to strike that balance where a character is flawed enough to be interesting, but also cool enough that somebody would want to see themselves in that person.

So when I was planning Errant, I'd decided Rekki was going to be really quite a flawed character with a strong personality who makes some bad or frustrating decisions, and I did worry it would cause problems. It's always a bit of a relief when people vote Rekki as their favourite and say she's relatable! A big factor with Rekki was establishing why she's like this, and showing why she's a worthy person in spite of all that. I ended up starting with a prologue rather than my original plan to start with adult Rekki and then later flash back to the events of the prologue, because it felt important to show the audience though presenting her as a guileless child, that fundamentally, Rekki Lune is a brash, heroic person who'll throw herself into danger to protect others in a heartbeat... and also that she has a lot of deep-rooted insecurities about not being good enough, and that the villain, Urien, uses those insecurities to manipulate her. As the story progresses, we see more clues emerge that she's kind of chosen to take on a lot of burdens in secret, both out of necessity, to keep the villain out of the loop, but also as a kind of self-punishment. That was the part I knew was going to be tricky, because early on it's deliberately ambiguous how responsible Rekki is for the bad stuff that's happened, and whether she's genuinely protecting that status quo, to create narrative tension. There's no internal monologue or thought bubbles in Errant, so I had to put a lot of trust in readers that they'd want to wait it out and see as more is revealed!

It'd be arrogant to say I think Rekki is a "great protafonist", but one thing I'll say is that I did make an attempt to risk making a complex, flawed protagonist who won't necessarily be somebody the reader wants to see themselves in, and I think that can be what's involved in making a great protagonist... but whether somebody things I succeeded or not is really more up to them! :sweat_02:

You’re not the only one who prefers Donald over Mickey. The reason why there are far more Donald Duck shorts and spinoffs is that most people preferred him. I remember also hearing that Minnie Mouse is far more popular in Japan due to her cutesy aesthetic.

It sort of reminds me of Mario is such a blank slate, while someone like Luigi has more to him as a character.

I actually prefer Donald over Mickey too. He's raising three boys by himself in DuckTales. Goofy is a widowed father who puts himself back through school to provide better for Max. What does Mickey got?

All my protags have villains that challenge an itty bitty flaw (I call this the "Batman Technique"). The thing about Batman is that he's a rich man trying to make himself a myth, but he's up against people who try to bring the human OUT of him (Scarecrow = Fear, Poison Ivy = Lust, Bane = Strength, etc.). That Stick Figure Isekai does this since all my characters believe they're the "protagonists" of their respective universes so to speak. They're trying to keep their own individual myths alive which I think is neat.

I think for me, a great protagonist has to do

As for audience stand-ins, there's actually a lot of them then people think. Some of them staring in your face. Reading old comics, I realized that SUPERMAN is an audience stand-in for the DC Universe. He's an alien sent from a powerful planet to Earth. Now Clark must adapt while meeting other characters. People have this weird perspective that he's this "unrelatable god"... but... so far... he's more of an American Shonen protag. The Byrne comics are what I want more from the My Hero Academia manga. It's so interesting seeing Superman having a crush on Wonder Woman only for them to work together and him going "Yeah... I can't keep up with her" or him being shocked that Hal Jordan is able to get out of tighter situations than a Kryptonian. OR WITH SHAZAM and how he's like "Dude... your enemies are lovecraftian af. WHO ARE YOU?!?" only for him to discover that he's a kid. The Justice League grounds Superman and it's cool.

I think I wanna talk about characters who're jerks? Especially after finishing Tomorrow's Joe. It's cool if a character says mean things, but they need to get beaten down a peg and face reality. If that personality type is going to be rewarded, make the character a LITERAL punching bag. I think Tomorrow's Joe taught me that main characters like Joe are cheered on because we see the absurd lengths they'd go despite not wanting to change their personality. They lose something after every battle and we find out "oh hey they do learn, they're just born to be jerks... at least we can commend them for that". Naota in my story loses A LOT. Same with Nikado, who's like the Eric Cartman on the series if he has money.

If you're going to write an edgy story, please go out in the outside world first. I'm dead serious. That's all I have to say about that matter.

Let's see, I love it when a protag is supposed to be some force of nature. Giorno Giovanna for example. People say he's the most boring Joestar because he barely speaks. Like boi, the villain's name is literally DIAVOLO (the Devil in Italian). Diavolo is hiding in the shadows, thinking he can pull the strings ONLY for things to break apart in the second and third-half when you got assassins backstabbing each other. Meanwhile you got Giorno, who's acting as some sort of silent support. Bruno may be the leader of Passione (and may SEEM like the true protagonist), Giorno is THE Golden Wind (he can MAKE LIFE, c'mon guys). He's always showing up when characters are in dire need and he's always winning their respect.

Let me pour my hyperfixation on you for a second, and talk about a recent example - Chai from Hi-Fi RUSH. Mechanically, he's an audience stand-in, but absolutely not the straight man.

(video example for people who just want a demonstration and not my wall of text)

This is such an amazing example and yet apparently it was pretty hard for the writer to push at first. Chai starts out the game as an actual jerkass and is legitimately not a smart person (compounded by untreated ADHD, maybe, depends on the headcanon) and you're not really supposed to like him a lot at the start even when he gets basically superpowers. He's selfish, cringe, does quips, doesn't pay attention, gives his teammate no end of grief, and because he's so competent in fighting, it's visible that his many failures and repeated punishments for saying something stupid don't break his power trip.

Then he's forced to interact with more than one teammate, and something changes.

Hints start to show that his attitude is not exactly who he truly is - and if you go back to think on his disability at the start of the game, it clicks together slowly but surely. Chai actually expects people to hate him, but when met with people who aren't repelled by his abrasiveness, he starts to grow and improve, drops his guard, stops being so unhelpful, and shows a depth of emotional maturity that's as huge as he's (still) stupid. A helpful tool too, as it turns out that while his teammates are smarter and friendlier, everyone's got a lot of issues that wouldn't get resolved if he didn't turn out to be really good at keeping everyone emotionally put together.

By the end of the game, he didn't become someone else - he's still cringefail and we love him for it - but let go of his worse characteristics to show what he's really like when he cares for someone and is loved back. Still a slacker, still bites down any crumb of attention at his own expense - but a work in progress to someone who's nice even when there's nothing in it for him.

So, what I'm displaying through this? A good protagonist works through their relationship with their cast, even if unlikeable at first. You need to start from a relatable place (everyone knows someone like how Chai starts) and make the viewer want to see that changed through development (the hints that he's not truly a jerk). Then, you show that the interactions have an effect, develop, but not flip a switch from unlikeable to likeable - make a person that feels real because the change feels real, too.
The cast is important too, but it's the usual for them to be more popular than the protagonist. If you want to really bring the protagonist foward, you gotta write them as more than the plot designated driver (I didn't even mention 99% of the story in HFR), and as a good character that just happens to have the tools to coincide with the plot moving foward.

Hmm, currently I'm watching My Hero Academia. I gotta say, I thought Izuku Midoriya (Deku) would turn out to be a bland shonen protag... but there's a lot more to him, and his type of thinking and world view changes over time.
He becomes less naïve. He's not just magically good at things--it is shown that he's passionate in a fanatical way, and takes notes on EVERYTHING. He's always thinking... but sometimes this makes him blind to things. He realizes that he's been trying to be exactly like his idol, then analyzes that goal and tries things outside of the box to create his own style of fighting eventually instead of comparing himself to the #1. He cares about people a lot, but not in an obnoxious way (lol). He is empathetic towards other people's pain because of his own experiences, but also wants to be a shoulder to lean on. But he's also only 15... so sometimes he falls short of being a rock for others and then HE needs a shoulder to lean on. :} (Still watching the show! But that's my opinion of him so far...)

Reading a lot of awesome responses to your conversation starter here!! I do think that there may be an insecurity among storytellers who hope that their main protagonist is acceptable by the entire audience--because maybe there is too much of themselves (or how they wish to be) in that character.

Gotta throw those hopes out the window, though. LOL
I do my best to make characters unlike anyone I know, including myself... It's too creepy to insert from real life imo!
Preferably, I like a fully realized character with flaws, a personality, and multiple goals--that's relatable to me. I don't want to blindly agree with the MC of a story because I'm being spoon fed a Nice Bland Ideal. It almost never works. And usually, it detracts from the story, unfortunately. :T

As much as I'd LOVE to have all my readers like Parker (my MC)... he's just not going to be loved by everyone. I love him because he's fun to write. He's a grungy teenage boy in the 90s. He's kind of an ass. He makes a lot of mistakes and makes assumptions about people. And he's a lil dumb sometimes. Lolol
But the point is that he develops into a better version of himself. So I hope that his point of existence gets across to the reader throughout the story, rather than hoping he'll be likeable the whole time. I'm more interested to see what other characters people will relate to and/or like besides him. lolol

Cowboy Bebop with its :ok_hand::ok_hand::ok_hand: characters. :coffee_love:
As much as I don't think like Spike or even agree with what he says sometimes, I still LOVE him as a character because there's so much behind him that isn't even shown in the story but you know is there. Like, I still understand him and where he's coming from and why he's saying things... and sometimes it makes me think about the whys! That's good writing.
(Oh, and I'm obsessed with Fae lolol)

I love some movie protagonists, such as 'K' (Joe) from movie Blade Runner 2049, as the movie in the end subverts 'the chosen one' trope and we viewers don't feel cheaped out-- as we followed his emotional existential journey all the way till the end. It's really brilliant.