'Fixing' the Manic Pixie Dream Girl

[bulgariansumo]

Disclaimer: I can't name an example where I've seen Manic Pixie Dream Girl play out, but I'm pretty sure I have at some point. Either way, I might not have the best grasp on it.

The issue I had with this trope is pretty much covered by @HGohwell. The girl either doesn't have a life outside of the love interest or focuses on the love interest disproportionately.

In the story I'm writing, one of my characters has a lot of traits of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl and another would qualify as the Average Everywoman Admirer.

The difference is the Manic Pixie Dream Girl-like has other friends. The Everywoman is afraid of connecting with people more than superficially, so she's going to have to learn how to do that if she ever wants to get closer with Dream Girl. Also she's going to have to do this unprompted by Dream Girl, since DG doesn't know that this is a problem. DG also has her own problems that can't be solved by Everywoman (but they can support each other!)

Generally with 'annoying female character' tropes, I find the issue is usually with context and intent, not necessarily the behavior of the girl in question, and that's something I've been trying to get better at identifying in recent years.

I don't have anything to really add to this, I just really like it. I think the kinds of characters that are typically Manic Pixie Dream Girls can be fun, but their existence is usually relegated to nursing the problems of someone who doesn't do nearly as much in return. It's a shame.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Why not subvert it a little more and just leave them as friends?

Eh, it's tempting, but I already write so many platonic relationships...this is the first novel idea I've ever come up with that's a simple love story, without any cataclysmic events or wild adventures to distract myself with. Just a run of the mill cute YA romance.

I want to challenge myself to try to write one, just this once. Maybe I'll hate it or find it excruciatingly boring, or discover that I suck at it, but I'll never know until I try.

I mean, to 'fix' a trope I think it's natural to start with the core of what the issue with it is:

That's a brilliant way of breaking down the problem; I don't think I've ever seen that kind of approach before...I'll have to remember that for future reference...

[darthmongoose]

One of the biggest issues with the MPDG is often the man she's interested in. It's always like... the girl is talented, fun and really extra, and then the guy is just the dullest person to ever live, and she likes him because....errr.......?

This is why the only examples of the trope I really like are:

Scott Pilgrim (but the comics, not Michael Cera's sleepy, low-energy performance) because Scott is a very extra guy; he's in a band, he gets into fights and has exes and baggage of his own. In fact it turns out Scott and Ramona really aren't so different in the end. Scott is convinced he's this happy-go-lucky guy who the world has it out for, but realises that his tendency to just drift through life, always taking and never giving, never considering the consequences of anything he does, is actually hurtful to others. He and Ramona both need to learn to not be so wrapped up in themselves.

Ah My Goddess! Keiichi is the opposite route to Scott Pilgrim in a way, because he is the nicest man alive, but it's appropriate because Scott is a mess on the same level as Ramona, and Keiichi is a noble, self-sacrificing guy who strives to be on the level of literal heavenly being Belldandy. In a moment of desperate loneliness, this reliable, kind-hearted guy everyone takes advantage of, wishes a goddess on the phone was his girlfriend... and now faced with actually having a literal goddess as a girlfriend, he steps up, provides her with a safe home, takes care of money, even welcomes her mischief-causing sisters, and deals with all the magical crap in his life like a champ. When reading or watching Ah My Goddess! I never felt like "What does Belldandy see in this guy?" because Keiichi is just as committed to being fair and kind to others as she is.

For me, the secret ingredient is that even if on the surface the main character seems like "the normal one", they need to meet their partner's energy somehow in a way where you can buy this is a relationship that would work due to shared values and life goals. It tends to work better if "the normal one" turns out to be just as much of a freak under the surface and that the "weird one" was instinctively drawn to that.
Otherwise it's just this boring fantasy scenario somebody has come up with like "what if I made absolutely no effort to do or say anything interesting, present myself nicely, have interesting experiences to talk about or even to go out and interact with women at all, but then a woman came and found me and she was super hot and nicely presented with cool clothes and said and did loads of cool, interesting things and was way into me just for existing and also made me do cool things so I could do cool things while still maintaining an apathetic facade?"

[abigaillmartin]

I’ve fell for this trope and I didn’t even realize it. My character Theta from my science fiction novel (formerly screenplay) from Omega of Hope. She is very bubbly, is a little hopeless romantic and has a crush on the cyborg character Knox. Originally I intended her to be nerdy, logical cool headed character, but that completely changed. Before I knew it, the tomboyish, thick glasses smart Alec turned into a naive, admittedly annoying but kind and sort of Disney Princessy character.

I wanted to keep her bubbly and shy and romantic nature in the novel and take out the annoying aspects of her that I grown to hate.

[powerplantanimations]

Ngl I've been meaning to commentate on Manic Pixie Dream Girl-archetype in my comic... in the action genre. I remember mentioning I wasn't going to satirize archetypes beyond season 1 at risk of it being derivative, but I REALLLLLY have a bone to pick with this one. Scott Pilgrim was probably the only good one imo.

I never really had problems with them in the romance genre. I'm just like "Eh... the writers are usually writing what they're into...". I do think there can be improvement, but I honestly think all of this depends on a different person.

[Ordinaryaverageguy]

It's always like... the girl is talented, fun and really extra, and then the guy is just the dullest person to ever live, and she likes him because....errr.......?

How about, she likes him because he says little. She likes to talk a lot, which means she likes to have someone who listens a lot and unlike maybe her other chatty friends always seem to her to be trying to interrupt or "top" her stories. Or maybe she's talented, maybe a good cellist for example, but not world class yet the guy thinks that she's the most moving musician he's ever heard & says so. He's dull on the outside but she thinks she sees quiet deepness, a mystery to delve into, an oyster to bring out of the shell.

People have always said the opposites attract, and there has always seemed to be couples to illustrate it, so why not?

[darthmongoose]

Yeah, I'm sure if somebody wrote these stories like that, it'd be really good!

When I say "the dullest person to ever live", I don't mean that the male character in these stories is a quiet, understated guy with hidden depths, who listens intently. MPDG stories like that are rare. Ah My Goddess! Is the only one that came to mind for me, and I explicitly called it out as one that's actually pretty good.

What I mean by "dull" isn't quiet. Being quiet isn't dull, because it's an unusual character trait. Most male love interest characters in Romance written for women, the love interest is the guy you just described. He's quiet and doesn't speak much, but he has an intensity to him, and he's a good listener (It's literally a cliche for straight women to say they like a man who's a "good listener").

I mean dull as in basic. The male character in a MPDG story is not written for women to think "wow, he's quiet, but so deep! Swoon!" about like Mister Darcy, he's written for a male audience to say "yeah, I can relate to this guy!" by male writers who... man, I dunno, they have a really low opinion of other men, I guess? So, generally a guy who dresses in the most average way, his music taste is whatever's kind of typical for his age range, he likes football and hanging out at the bar/pub with other guys, has no hobbies... he's the kind of guy who thinks his "nerd friend" is nerdy because he likes Star Wars. He's not quiet; he talks a lot, but just not really about anything interesting.

[Ordinaryaverageguy]

Ah, I see, someone who's dull outside AND out inside. Well...... maybe she thinks he's a "fixer upper".

[darthmongoose]

Yeah, that's the premise of most MPDG stories. Super interesting woman finds very boring man and makes him an interesting person.

[NickRowler]

It’s beyond just the main character being dull. The manic pixie dream girl is supposed to be the love interest who represents the not like other girls trope.

I don’t think developing the male character more fixes this, it can sometimes just make him look like an asshole.

I think something that would fix the MPDG is giving her something to do in the story beyond just being a love interest. It would give time to develop her beyond just the MC liking her because of superficial reasons. I think also have her so she isn’t being compared to other girls. Other female characters have their own quirks and are allowed to be girly or feminine without being villainized for it.

[cherrystark]

I've also seen in stories featuring a manic pixie dream girl, he's usually the one pursuing her for some creepy reason. (American Dad literally had an episode where the son falls for a manic pixie dream girl. She's literally just living her life and Steve starts creeping on her.) In a lot of female written romance, she usually just "gives in" or she loves him for the role she mentally cast him in. No "fixing up" needed. Like @darthmongoose said, the guy is dull. He's either a dude bro or so straight laced that he has no personality aside from being exhausted or his job. Nothing else. (Ex. Barefoot in the Park)

[HGohwell]

yeah, unfortunately when this trope is played straight, it's not about her, it's about him. And he being dull and blank so your average loser guy (I don't know if you're familiar with the blank slate isekai guy main character with only the barest personality and no actual opinions so readers can see themselves in him, but that guy but romcom version) can project onto him. They're not protrayed as having any real flaws beyond their average life is averagely boring and they don't have a girlfriend. Cue MPDG who is quirky and fun and "sees the good in him" and makes his life interesting by her very presence without him having to actually do anything himself. She brings all the excitement and romance into his life, her entire world and plot revolves around his interest in her, and he doesn't have to change a thing about himself because clearly it's not his fault he's got no opinions, personality and has an average life he refuses to change. He's never seen as a fixer upper because his boringness isn't seen as his fault or a flaw.

[BoomerZ]

Another problem I see in most types of male protagonist is the problem that their personality. They are boring. They are completely wrapped up in getting a girlfriend. Nothing else really matters to them. Would you be friends with someone that his only goal is to get a girlfriend? No, that person is boring. He also doesn't have goals or ambitions beyond being with the girl. They usually don't have friends themselves and maybe ask why? Because they are not people to be friends with. Everyone always talks about the girl in these comics, but the men are usually just as bad if not worst in a real life evaluation.

[cherrystark]

It's funny (in the strange sense.) I started about how often we see characters lacking any type of personality. Their personality is their relationship. That's it. The writer might sprinkle in some quirks as afterthoughts but they never grow as people.

The MPDG is only really appealing if she's written through the lens of the dull male protagonist fantasizing about her. If a character falls into the realm of MPDG and is allowed to live her best life as a fully realized character, I fully support her and would read her story in a heartbeat. But she's a really annoying character as a romantic lead. It's hard to root for the couple when the dull male lead realizes that it's a miracle she's still alive because she has no skills to take care of herself.

[PrinceLatte]

1. I do love this trope (though I don't use it)

2. She is adorable

3. I love this art style

4. Do you think it's true scott Pilgrim made this trope worse personally I don't see much of it.

[Mallory]

I think a lot of people are struggling to describe what a "dull" male character is and I think "typical dude bro" does it a disservice. It's less about the guy's description and more about his lack of ambition/drive (in other words, he's a static, passive protagonist). MPDG's role is to "wake" this dull character up, give his life some direction and make it more interesting, while making the female character's life inexplicably revolve around him in some way (for example, she may convince him to go to Paris because going to Paris was HIS dream that he let go of because he lacks ambition and drive. Now there's this outside force that's pushing him towards his dreams and he doesn't have to worry about finding the motivation. But she's not pushing him to go to Kathmandu, which is maybe her dream, but it's not his, so the MPDG writer doesn't care).

If you write the guy as an active protagonist who was already doing his thing before running into a weirdo, and the weirdo herself has goals and ambitions that she is pursuing for herself, then I don't think it falls under MPDG trope.

[cherrystark]

@Mallory I think you hit on a critical point of the male MC being an "active" participant in the story. If he's an active, fully realized character and he only needs to the weirdo to give him a kick in the pants to go live his dreams - it could be a good story. Most of the time, the guy's singular purpose in the story is to get a girlfriend. He's often not any better by the time the story ends.

[Ordinaryaverageguy]

makes his life interesting by her very presence without him having to actually do anything himself

I think I misunderstood the trope as permitting the guy to be improved by meeting the MPDG, but apparently that's not the usual way it goes. I think it was Robert Heinlein who said that if a main character isn't changed in some way by the events of a story, then it's not a very good story (or something to that effect). Then again, perhaps some slice of life stories are like that, somewhat like a documentary or diary vs something like an adventure.

[writerhongpao]

The two MC's are an 'ordinary' guy and an 'extraordinary' girl who fall in love, and despite her bright personality and supernatural abilities, the girl has always been a kind of feeble character who needs a lot of help from the people around her. Meanwhile the guy (who is the primary POV) is pretty self-sufficient, but a little boring and dull and wants something more out of life.

This setup naturally lends itself to a typical lopsided relationship where the guy "saves" the girl (through the bare-minimum achievement of knowing how to exist in modern society...) and in return her whole existence becomes a vehicle to make his life more interesting and fulfilling. And I don't think I have to explain why that doesn't appeal to me. ^^;

Why not make it even instead of lopsided? Maybe they "save" each other in their own unique way? I'm not too familiar with this trope, but sounds like two people of opposite personalities can help each other grow. If he is self-sufficient but a bit boring, and she bright and bubbly but feeble and needy, maybe they strike up a relationship when he gives her advice on how to be more self-sufficient, and she gives him advice on how to have fun by opening up to people and being more social.

I could see several episodes where situations arise that challenge each of the character's normal tendencies, then they go to the other for advice and try it out, and it doesn't turn out so bad. Or maybe for comedic effect it turns out ridiculously bad. But either way they come back to each other and their relationship grows deeper after every challenge.

Just my opinion. In my experience, I've appreciated most how much I've grown after knowing someone in that deeper way.

[system]

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