Gender-specific animation...?

[FenneFox]

Just going to talk about this with gaming since this is where I've seen this discussion the most. Honestly, I'd heard the primary issue with that whole thing was that you have to make a whole new model, rig said model, and then make animations for it. I'd say the latter probably takes the most time. Granted, I'm not exactly the best with this sort of thing, so I don't exactly know whether animations would be transferable between models. Furthermore, if the idea is to have expressive characters, then it's likely instead of transferring animations, one would opt to simply make a whole new set of them.

As for the issue of the issue between the way men/women walk, I suppose if you really went an analyzed it you might be able to find certain differences that come from biological differences at least for things like walking, but gestures and such are generally something that goes for an individual. Furthermore, there are people who would definitely go against the norm. Tying that back to animating, then the main issue there is the walk cycle I guess (that being said, i have actually animated a walk cycle before and, while it was kind of crappy, I wouldn't say it's hard thing to do).

So, in the end, I can kind of see where people are coming from when they lack a budget, team, or time in implementing this, but I don't see much of an excuse for bigger studios (well, unless we factor in the fact that they force their programmers into crunch time just to get some games out, but I think that's primarily blaming the publishers). Well, I guess there is an issue if you need to go back and change/rerecord dialogue, but that's more of a case by case thing.

[skicoak]

Forget gestures and mannerisms for a second, there are fundamental differences in centers of gravity and movement strategies between the sexes that do affect how they move. It's not an opinion, it's a reality.

[AllynCrowe]

That is not point though. Those differences may be present, but they do not excuse every woman in a game to walk like they're the child of a runway model and a pole dancer. It also doesn't excuse studios from not adding women in their entirety. Guess who also have different centres of gravity? Men of different heights, men with broader shoulders, men that are more heavyset: it's not an excuse if you already have five different male characters, and definitely not an excuse to sexualise every female animation.

[skicoak]

That is not point though. Those differences may be present, but they do not excuse every woman in a game to walk like they're the child of a runway model and a pole dancer. It also doesn't excuse studios from not adding women in their entirety. Guess who also have different centres of gravity? Men of different heights, men with broader shoulders, men that are more heavyset: it's not an excuse if you already have five different male characters, and definitely not an excuse to sexualise every female animation.

No, they shouldn't be used as excuses for any of the things you mentioned ( except for the part on center of gravity in different Men, the location doesn't change but it's relation to other factors like body mass does. this effects movement strategies more) but they can't also be waved away as non factors because you have issues with the things you mentioned.

The argument for those changes isn't made stronger by arguing biomechanics.

[PaulieBlade]

See, that's tricky, cause men actually cannot really sit this way and hold an item like that, unless you want to hurt your you-know.

[AVXP]

= Everything is relative, even gender norms, so assuming every man or woman on earth is just 'predisposed' to act the way they do in your social environment is just setting yourself up for foolishness. In this day and age, the fact that your worldview is limited is not a legitimate excuse.

This sounds more of the same "My side is more righteous so our opinions are more right than the other side." Does the whole world agree that men and women move, sit, stand the same? Is that EVERY culture? Is the progressive notion of removing gender differences (beyond anything physical) so prevalent that it is planet earth's default? Is that even the slant of the majority of people? Worldview? What world? Your world? Where YOU are from? Did you know, that in other cultures there are still traditions and norms -- that clash against much of these current stances? Not everyone is on the same page about this and to assume everyone SHOULD be - is just as limiting an outlook.

I'm sure there are as many flamboyant guys as there are stoic gals, regardless of their gender identities.

The fact that you can write this tells me you are aware of the different behaviors and what they suggest.

=If you're making a purely fictional game, you have the freedom to have your male/female characters move however you want. So maybe if you just don't want to do something, be honest and say that instead of pretending it's 'not possible'. ._.

I just saw a video about this and it seems like they named several reasons.
"too much work" and "not possible" (even in quotes) is not linked to their responses.
Don't do that. Make you point by making good points.

Aside from that, you guys sit on here and rally so hard at ANY suggestion of anyone telling you about your work.
You literally, flip out, at the thought of ANYONE telling you what to do.

Just the idea that some creator needs to justify a decision like this is nuts. Who cares what reason they gave. The fact that they have to give a reason at all is scary.

If you are completely lost, look up the thread where there's discussion of selling IPs to Disney.
This must be part of the

"I don't mind when people are forced to do things as long as it's the things I want them to do."

[skicoak]

See, that's tricky, cause men actually cannot really sit this way and hold an item like that, unless you want to hurt your you-know.

I can't hold items close to my knee because...

I took an arrow there once.

[unknown_user]

Wait, but how men do their famous menspreading, which anger feminists so much?

[DiegoPalacios]

The problem is not the spreading....in the example you showed, the woman had her bag way too close to where it would be the "you-know" XD it needs space.....

[PaulieBlade]

^ What @DiegoPalacios said. By the way, I never knew menspreading was problematic

[burginlewis]

As a woman, spreading is only a problem for me when there's limited space and men insist on doing it anyway, eg a plane or a public bus and we're all packed in like sardines. Then it's infuriating, because it's clearly about power and control when space is at such a premium.

[DiegoPalacios]

spreading is only a problem for me when there's limited space and men insist on doing it anyway, eg a plane or a public bus and we're all packed in like sardines. Then it's infuriating, because it's clearly about power and control when space is at such a premium.

in that case the man would be making.......

a dick move.....

[NickRowler]

Movement can be used to express a character's personality but I do feel like people get very stereotypical about it. I do think it works in a cartoonish environment but is not really a universal norm.

This is an example of stereotypical gendered animation and how it looks when the roles are reversed. It shows how people's personality can change by animating them differently. I think a lot of people who exclude female characters for being "too hard" to animate, just makes me think that they lack range and skills and should probebly do more character studies or hire a woman to do some mo-caps.

Edit: I also like to note, that I don't think the woman with her swaying hips from the video should be set as a "norm" for animating women. I think it is a good example of showing maybe a high class feminine woman but I think using it for something like an Action RPG video game about knights just looks weird.

[bakasama25]

That looks likes a form of Character Animation. Pity it's a lost art except in older Disney movies.

[PaulieBlade]

I'd even say it's kind of...

Ballsy.

YYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH

On a serious note @burginlewis trust me, even men are annoyed by other men taking the limited space like that. So I see your point.

[TAMAnnoying]

By a) I mean differences in skeleton, at the first place:

Something I’d like to note that walking becomes very diffrent for males and females. As knowing someone who has done a lot of medieval reenactment groups the women often tried to walk and move as men because it was mostly men on the battlefields. It was very interesting to hear that the why the female members realized how to walk as men walk, was to practice waking as if their was a book between their legs as.... you know, men have to deal with dangling bits while they walk.

Same for a lot of my male cross dressing friends. To walk like a women they have to make the same changes in their steps to account for the fact that women don’t have to deal with dangling bits.

Even with the physical diffrence, they can still posture and pretend if they try hard enough, but the fact is without trying it’s much more natural for women to easily walk with a sway as men usually walk with their legs parted.

As for “is it nessasaary to have two distinct gestures for men and women in your game” I REALLY feel like it just depends on the type of game your playing, if it’s a sprite game like Pokémon I wouldn’t see the reason for the extra step. If your making a game like the sims where everything is super customizable, then I’d expect lots of Intresting gestures.

Altho I do admit I hate it when the gestures made for men and women are very.... basic. Like in dragon age 2 I noticed that the females had a much more Danity feel to them then the males. Which was fine when playing a Danity mage.... but not when I wanna play a bulky amazon warrior, just clashes with my vision of my character x3

[LordVincent]

I wrote out a long post detailing my arguments but... realized some of it was motivations and observations noone asked for. So to keep it short:

Yes, most men naturally walk and sit with their legs apart for anatomical reasons.

No, women do not naturally walk and sit with their legs together for anatomical reasons. They are able to more easily do it since their anatomy doesn't immediately prevent it, but most of them do it as a result of habit caused by societal pressure. Many are unaware of this societal pressure as they just copy the behavior from their mothers like they copy other behaviors at an early age. But being repeatedly told as kids to keep their legs together when they wear skirts sure enforces the behavior too...

If a game depicts a specific country at a specific time in history, it can make sense to use gender specific animations that suit the way things were at the time. Woke-ifying history isn't all that woke, because observing history is an important part of understanding these issues at large. Most progressives wouldn't want to erase history.

But if that isn't the case, then using more gender neutral animations would be a respectable move.

[CarltonIsaac]

Just the idea that some creator needs to justify a decision like this is nuts. Who cares what reason they gave. The fact that they have to give a reason at all is scary.

Exactly the first thought I had when reading this topic.

Everyone, I’d assume, here on this forum is a critically thinking creative and should take no offense on how fellow creators express their creativity through their work.

[vothnthorvaldson]

The walk and gestures are different due to different anatomy, for sure.

The issue is that in real life, when average individuals are walking/moving in a natural fashion, these differences are relatively small. Noticable, but not generally enough to look really odd if used by the opposite sex.

In videogame, the differences are generally pushed to the extreme. Much more extreme than real life, even in a society with strong gender roles. I hate that, but let's be realistic, it's not going to change anytime soon.

The ideal solution would be to have multiple animations to be able to fit subgroups of both male and female population with gaits adapted to their profession, social status etc, but THAT would be expensive.

[ProfessorParsec]

I'mma just leave this here: