Good writing is more than just good writing style (opinion)

[smokesalty]

Okay, I'm primarily a comic writer and artist but I also really enjoy writing novels.

A thing I've noticed (this was an issue I used to have) is that many people have very lovely writing styles but I have a hard time comprehending their stories because of the sheer amount of characters or lore that doesn't take the time to slowly be built up, or are just thrown onto the readers.

Good writing is being able to convey information, characters and story points to the audience in a way they understand as well.

I've learned through my own writing that you have to think about how easy it is for others to comprehend what's going on or they'll drop the story. This is why I often have someone proof read my work, and tell me whether they understand what's happening.

I feel like this is a lot harder in novels, as you don't have visuals to distinguish characters.

Your readers aren't going to be knowledgeable on your story as you are. It's kinda how people say that when you introduce characters all at once people aren't going to remember them, you need to have the readers get to know the character one by one. Same goes for other aspects of writing ( not all the time but hopefully you get what I mean)

I dunno, end of my ramble here.

[DualDragons]

I agree. Nearly not all of your readers are going to connect the dots the way you do. Actually none will like the way you do because you have the script while they are in the dark. It's a different POV.

I think a good story is one where the reader is comfortable with the characters, setting and story and knows what is happening. They can follow along well and the pacing is nice so they do not get overloaded with lore and info dumps.

[smokesalty]

agreed! This is especially the case if they're following the story week to week. If it's confusing they're likely not going to be willing to keep reading. This is usually the case online where you don't say buy a book and keep reading to see if it gets good.

[DasIstWunderblyat]

First of all, thank you for reading my series (but seriously if you actually did, let's talk).

For me it's like "Good art, below average story/storytelling" for comic. Though in my case, enjoying a good art when you know nothing about the story is way easier than enjoying a prose without knowing the story.

Also sometimes writers push hard so that their writing would sound more poetic and intellectual, which sometimes results in readers not understanding it and have to open a dictionary

I know that I'm not that good of a writer (I meant not only my clarity sucks, I don't have beautiful writing style whatsoever), so for each 10 chapters I give a summary of what happened.

[smokesalty]

For me it's like "Good art, below average story/storytelling" for comic.

Yes !!! Exactly that. Some people have absolutely gorgeous art/ prose, but if I'm not enjoying the story I can't keep going. I also agree that it's a lot more unbearable with overly flowery writing (with art I can just look at it and think it's nice, but I'm not going back to a novel to read more description.

And with your last statement, if you know where the issues lie in your work, you can take steps to improve it (which is great!) Don't be too hard on yourself. And 'beautiful writing' is just as subjective as 'beautiful' art.

[darthmongoose]

Yeah, definitely. Being good at writing isn't just "being able to words good". Some people think if they have a fantastic vocabulary and use really evocative, poetic descriptions, they're a good writer, or if they put deep themes or metaphors in their work or explore very serious subjects like the nature of what it means to be human or the horrors of war.

...But generally, especially on a platform like Tapas where people aren't necessarily here to read literary fiction, they just want something to read on the train to work or something, "good writing" becomes the ability to capture and hold attention, usually by establishing a strong premise, making what's happening very clear to even an ESL reader and getting people emotionally invested in the characters.

Example, The Beginning After the End. It's actually full of typos and even words that are used incorrectly for the context, the language is very simple without particularly inspiring word choices.... But it held my attention for many chapters. It's really easy to read and follow, the character archetypes and action are communicated clearly and it establishes a compelling hook, then keeps bringing up new story hooks and scenarios that keep you reading to see what happens next.

I have had somebody who was pissed at me tell me I write like a "children's writer" before, which was a pretty funny weak burn because I deliberately chose to make Errant simple, easy to follow and to use simpler English on Tapas so that my work would be more widely accessible.
In the past I tended to find my love of fancy vocabulary and obscure British slang or regional colloquialisms made my work intimidating to even American English speakers. To make the comic readable on mobile, I had to make the dialogue font much bigger than ever had in print, and it meant the amount of text I can actually fit in a panel is limited to a sentence or two. I mean, anyone who's been on the forums knows how wordy I am if not held back... I have to REALLY cut down the dialogue from the initial scripts and use visual storytelling as much as I can to tell what's often a pretty complex and political story in a way where it feels like a kid could read it.

[smokesalty]

Yup, absolutely.

I think simplicity and understandability is more important than pulling every big fancy piece of vocabulary you can. I used to feel bad that my novel writing style was so simple, but I realised it was because I hate reading excessive flowery description so I avoid it in my own work. I've found I enjoy writing when I'm not trying to sound profound.

And reading your comic, I was easily able to understand what was going on, and I knew who the characters were as people, so you've done an amazing job at that. Your writing style is hella fun to read, so people saying you're a 'children's writer' have missed the point. You can have simple language while portraying complex themes and characters. If anything, it makes it more easily understandable to the audience.

For me, I don't use very complicated language in my comic, but I think that works in my favour as I still include clues to things that happen later on without relying on vague metaphors and fancy language. I find my readers tend to catch on to clues and pay attention for that reason.

In general fancy prose/excessive flowery language doesn't always equal a mature, amazing story. Just as more simple straight forward language doesn't equal a childish and basic story. I feel like you can tell when someone knows how to use fancy language in a way that enhances the story vs just using it to sound smart.

[DualDragons]

Also sometimes writers push hard so that their writing would sound more poetic and intellectual, which sometimes results in readers not understanding it and have to open a dictionary

That's me in roleplaying threads sometimes I'm like: let me quickly google that

[rumpenstiltzkin]

A thing I've noticed (this was an issue I used to have) is that many people have very lovely writing styles but I have a hard time comprehending their stories because of the sheer amount of characters or lore that doesn't take the time to slowly be built up, or are just thrown onto the readers.

this for sure makes me just shut down a comic I thought I would enjoy but its just either to complicated language, or just to much thrown at you at once :S

Writing was a big part that stopped me from making a comic for a while because my vocabulary is already pretty crappy in my own language, how the heck do I then write something good in another language

Its still something Im thinking about a lot, like, how do I write a character that is smarter/more intelectual than me and maybe talks with a more complex vocabulary when I cant do it myself. And what if my characters dialogue feels to simple and boring and same with my plot - I often thinking about maybe its going to feel to simple and ridicilous because im not smart enough to think out something more complex

I do so envy people who are good at writing haha

[smokesalty]

Honestly, I don't think simplicity is a problem at all. As long as you're telling an interesting story, your vocabulary doesn't need to be super profound. Keep in mind that most readers don't have the most profound vocabulary/writing skills.

And in terms of writing a smart character, I have issues with it as well, especially if the character is good at science or math (I'm absolutely horrendous at both.) For me, making a character sound smarter can also be showing what they know compared to other characters (which doesn't require super fancy language) I find this is especially helpful in fantasy because most things are made up!

I will usually make them use words without conjunctions (e.g. I will not instead of won't) and i'll use more fancy words in replacement to more simple ones (I will occasionally go on thesaurus to find some synonyms.)

In short, I don't think you need an absolutely amazing or complicated language to make a compelling story. Sometimes simplicity is key

[darthmongoose]

And reading your comic, I was easily able to understand what was going on, and I knew who the characters were as people, so you've done an amazing job at that. Your writing style is hella fun to read, so people saying you're a 'children's writer' have missed the point. You can have simple language while portraying complex themes and characters. If anything, it makes it more easily understandable to the audience.

Ah thank you! To be fair, I am sort of a children's writer in a sense, because that's part of my day job. I help create edutainment materials to teach kids about coding and hey, it pays my rent, so I can't complain! But it is funny because my boss would be the first to tell anyone I'm a lot better at making content for and relating to older or very academic kids and struggle to relate to an average kid who doesn't like learning. I was an infuriatingly swotty, precocious know-it all as a child (so nothing's changed, really).

I think a thing about "writing" is people just think "writing = prose" or "writing = words", but really in a comic, things get muddy because the "writer" is telling the story, but the story isn't necessarily told through writing so much as drawing and writing together. Personally I think my writing is better the fewer actual words I'm using. A lot of my favourite pages of my work are either wordless, or they're the ones where somebody says something very banal, but the intended meaning is something very profound or emotionally important.

One of my favourite lines I've ever written in a comic, which actually placed in a national competition was "Try not to die, idiot-face." because it's an utterly dull, everyday little insult with absolutely no poetry or beauty to it, but everything about the context and framing makes it clear the actual meaning is "please be careful, I love you." And this is a common theme in my work, people saying something very banal because they can't say something that expresses the depth or intensity of their emotion.

When my partner proposed to me, they took me up to a beautiful waterfall in my favourite place, and sat me down and started like:
"Kate, my love, my one and only..."
and I thought, 'oh my god, they're going to propose!?'
...Except then, they forgot what they'd planned to say and started saying:
"Kate my...stuff...and...things...."
so then I thought 'okay never mind, they're joking around! Haha, they really had me for a second!'
And then they popped a ring out of their pocket and I screamed
A true story about how sometimes words can fail, and we can completely fail at saying beautiful eloquent things, but it can still be a profoundly beautiful moment.

[smokesalty]

I agree! I find that I really enjoy when I'm able to successfully portray a scene with no words. And honestly, being able to write for children is definitely a skill in itself, because you have to convey it in a way that makes sense and is fun. I think you being able to do that is amazing!

"Try not to die, idiot-face."

I love this line! It just makes character interactions all the more genuine and entertaining to read.

When my partner proposed to me, they took me up to a beautiful waterfall in my favourite place, and sat me down and started like:

I absolutely adore this! This story is really sweet, and I wish you the best for you and your partner.

[NickRowler]

I was a kid who had bad dyslexia and often got bored of books who took forever to get to a point. I am not really a fan of flowery language, sometimes I prefer just telling me a character is a redhead instead of spending a paragraph describing what color their hair looks like. Yeah it's all poetic and all but if said character only appears on 5 pages, it seems so unnecessary.

Like for the longest time I was confused by people describing light brown hair as "mousy" because the first thing that came to mind was a mouse nest so I thought anyone with mousy hair was just crazy and unkempt. And to make things more confusing, mousy is also used to describe a shy/anxious person. Tho maybe if you are trying to be funny, you could describe a mouse as a "mousy mousy mouse".

Or maybe I shouldn't be judging other people's writing. Someone called my stuff Lynchian.

[UrMom]

Eh it's like with art. Hot take but even though everyone nowadays says there's not such thing as good or bad art, there can be, like if the art is unintentionally confusing and massively misses it's mark. This can apply to visually pretty art, and normally doesn't usually apply to surrealism and abstraction. Like a comic can look stunning, but if you can't tell what the hell is happening due to bad action scenes or excessive head-shot panels, no backgrounds, stiff body movements and expressions, it's kinda bad. Same with illustration if the expressions, postures, scenery, etc are totally off unintentionally.

That's just my pov though (I'm probably too old school.), everyone else goes by the mindset that all art is subjective, therefore it's all good. But yeah, agreed! You can't make a good story without good structure... well, most of the time. Weird, surreal stories can get away with aaalmost anything as long as it's entertaining.

[rajillustration]

For me it's like over-rendering when the foundation is bad. Like if you're proportions on an image are incorrect, it doesn't matter how much detail you gave the wrinkles and folds of the skin--you have to start over, it is off. With writing you can absolutely have beautiful purple prose if you want to--I've read so many books that I adore and it is because the writing style is wild and unexpected and lovely, but they were built on solid plot foundations. They were still easy to understand although the writing was unique and quite flowery sometimes (especially if you're reading works from the victorian era when they were paid by the word.)

So I think you have to understand your audience. Like for my comic I cannot have nearly as many words a page as a novel, or as many characters as a novely even--like I've been dinged before because people couldn't understand why I had narrator in one comic, which is fine, because that's what my audience expects: no narrator (although I personally really liked it, but that comic was more for me than for other people I guess). Genre expectations are hard to fight if what you want is active readers. Course, not every single comic or novel needs to gear straight for genre expectations, it's often really fun to write something really flowery and "cringe" just for you. Cuz like you can't get better at rendering stuff out, if it be in art or in writing, if you don't push it and experiment with it in your own practice.

[Zhengo]

I feel like conveying information in an effective matter is a lot harder than it looks. Like, you can explain everything to the minute detail, to try to make sure the readers reallyyy get it, but the text dump might make them tune it out instead, and it may be kinda condescending to your readers if it turns out to be really obvious information, and sometimes it'll come off very unnatural if it's something the characters already know about.

On the other hand, simple explanations may risk key information being left out and confusing readers. So I often feel like I'm walking on a tight-rope of under-explaining and over-explaining xD Sometimes it is also easy to just show it instead of explaining it, but I guess I don't feel overly confident that maybe readers can pick it up if it's shown to subtly. Like, I have a character who heals very fast, which causes them to shrug off any injuries, but everyone around this character also already knows about this ability, so they don't really make a big fuss about it. So I kind of show how fast they heal by just walking around fine while other characters are still licking their wounds, but then I fear maybe readers will start thinking this is a plot hole for why this character seems perfectly fine XD So of course I would add some off-hand dialogue about how they heal very fast, but I also struggle with whether the dialogue should dump all the mechanics of how the healing works or just save the information to be revealed at a more "natural" time.

Anyways, effective conveying of information is actually really hard! I guess this is why there's so much isekai out there. It gives characters an excuse to thoroughly explain worldbuilding mechanics XD

[Swamp]

I feel like this thread is combining two different gripes, both of with are valid, into one gripe, which feels a bit harsh.

TRUE: There are many storytelling skills besides prose that make a good story, including the ability to communicate with a reader
ALSO TRUE: Slow, clear lore and fast pacing does best on sites like Tapread.
LESS TRUE: Other approaches to lore and writing mean the writer doesn't think about readers or doesn't care about their craft.

This is probably a bit defensive as I'm 100% a 'throw them in the deep end' writer, and, even consciously scaling back and trying to make my writing easier to follow, I know it can still put people off.

I also tend that way because it's genuinely what I enjoy reading.

Don't get me wrong, I see readers not understanding as primarily on me, but I genuinely like the "hit the ground running, it's okay if you don't understand everything at first". As a reader, it can be a fun mystery, getting to know a cast, and jumping in with really direct introductions and explanations will alienate me much faster. I mean, my absolute favorite comic I keep actual, literal spreadsheets to track the characters and factions, and I think it is some of the best writing out there.

I make a lot of choices with my writing that I know shoot myself in the foot popularity wise. "Crime thriller fantasy about a middle aged lesbian with dense lore where the first arc is about fictional farming law" is... not going to be everybody's cup of tea, and it would be stupid and petty of me to act like I'm entitled to popularity, but there isn't One Correct Way to do exposition.

[Zhengo]

Yeah I very much agree with this. One of my favorite mangaka is Jun Mochizuki, and her works are heavily backloaded on reveals and explanations, so a lot of times, you'll have characters talking about things and events occurring that'll seem confusing upon first reading it, but usually when the reveal happens later in the story, it is incredibly satisfying since you'll be able to look back and connect all the dots. In this light, the sparse explanation in the beginning is more of its own buildup to a climax. I know not everyone likes this kind of storytelling, but I don't think it's a wrong way to tell a story, either. The author still does their job in the end, the reader will understand things just fine once they come to the conclusion.

Unfortunately, this "backloaded" kind of storytelling does sometimes gets dismissed as the writer not doing a good job at conveying their lore, plot points, etc., especially if it's a serial work that's still currently getting updated, basically hoping that the reader will stay invested enough for them to get to the satisfying bits.

[EncryptedWriting]

This is absolutely a call out post for me. I have been told I have a pleasant yet descriptive writing style, but I find myself often rushing or coming up with very sporadic scenes. Throughout my new novel I have constantly talked with peers if I should wait for scene a if it is too early or if I should start scene b, etc. I find that backstory really needs to develop and info bombing is absolutely devastating to a story. In some senses, I get it, but I find it often kills momentum and makes it struggle to gain some anymore.

[TheLemmaLlama]

Well yeah, clarity is number one and fancy language doesn't mean much if you can't understand what's going on. Though I see fancy language as the prose equivalent of a pretty artstyle in a comic - and sure, you could draw your comic in a super-simple style with stick figures and unchanging, head-on perspective which makes it absolutely clear what's happening, but it's not going to be as evocative as it would be with a more cinematic artstyle and composition.

This is why I struggle with novels/prose; I can draw a gloomy-looking scene but I can't describe a gloomy-feeling scene with words. I'll end up saying something like "it's dark and stormy, and there's rain. Also, it's cold." Which yes, it clearly describes what's in the scene, but it's not very evocative, is it?

So yes, good writing is more than just good writing style, but if writing style didn't matter, then I'm a darn good writer XD

On a completely unrelated note:

Slow, clear lore and fast pacing does best on sites like Tapread.

I have no idea how to do slow lore with fast pacing. That's why the lore-heavy comic I've got planned is a slice-of-life :'D