Honest discussion about “UNPAID collabs”

Hmm、I'm an artist who has done many unpaid "volunteer" projects in the past for various youtubers、 roleplaying groups、and smackjeeves collab comics. Many of them were passion projects where everyone who participated were highly interested in the final product、and no one was "begged to join" or anything with little project information. There was usually an audition process where you had to link your previous work、portfolio、etc.

The one important thing is that whoever organizes or starts the project clearly states who jobs they need done、paid/unpaid、project details like an approximate timeline that it will be completed and workload to consider、like how much I am expected to draw.

I also make sure to only work for one-time or short term projects. Nothing permanent or ongoing. I have had many experiences where I had completed the artwork before other collaborators were done their part、and the project ended up on indefinite hiatus. Because of this、I am careful nowadays to only start drawing at all if all the writing has been confirmed、and at least one other person on the team has completed their part (background artist or whatever)

Recently, I generally only collaborate with friends or people I already know fairly well.

I haven't collaborated with a writer in the Tapas community yet、 because so far all the pitches have been LONG comic projects with vague details. I need to know if I am working alone as the main artist or if I am just the line artist? Is the story completed? I won't draw for something that has 5 arcs but only 1 arc had been written.

I also have no interest in drawing something that is 100% someone's brainchild and I have no say in the matter. If your character designs are disgusting or too complicated、 I won't draw it.

I won't draw something for someone who has no track record of former successful collaborations. How the heck would I know if you're a shitty boss or an awesome flexible teammate?

Finally, most of the concepts I see from writers around here are just too grand and don't fit my interests.

I think a completed script is a bit... too limiting at least for me. As a writer I tend to be a bit more seat of my pants. Oh I have a goal in mind and I typically can tell you how we're going to get there but a completed script before the first page really locks you in and make rewrites ALOT harder. If a character isn't working or a plot thread has proven to be too taxing on your artists so much work has to be thrown out if you need to make a major change.

I grant you scope is a problem young and inexperienced writers are often plagued by they wanna pen an epic but have no idea how to just give us one digestible chunk at at time. What's even worse than that is the writer that has NO plan they made some characters they think are cool and they have no idea what to DO with any of them. They have no role in the story other than 'This is the main character'. They either all get along and there is no conflict or none of them get along and its too much... it all falls under the header of someone deluding themselves into thinking they can be a storyteller because they technically passed high school English. Not trying to sound like a snob here, it just takes more to create a compelling narrative than a few character designs and a villain for them to fight.

Yeah, I understand it's difficult for a writer to just give me EVERYTHING at once, but I have had my work wasted far too often because a project cools off and I've already done half the artwork before the author decides life has gotten in the way, so personally I prefer people showing me a vision of the End goal. My alternative to this is a reasonable timeline and deadlines that neither party should break.

i havent done unpaid collabs, but i did a few drawings for a friend tryna make it in music when i was starting out - for the second lot he asked of me he said he could pay £50... he ended up fucking me around with what he wanted, and when i told him i wouldnt continue until i got half the money upfront (after already providing him w a pair of half decent ep covers) he said 'okay' and we didnt talk again. i could tell all the way through though that 1: he had no idea what he was doing when it came to album art, and 2: he didnt appreciate the work i was doing. this wasnt bc he was a bad person necessarily, just someone who didnt understand the craft. its really important to work with someone who understands what it is youre doing for them and its value

in terms of unpaid comics collaborations, i think ive made my views p clear over time - itll work only if the collaborators come in on the ground floor as equals, their input, limitations, and artistic development considered in a project theyre equally invested in, with equal ownership. these kinds of collaborations require personal chemistry - take Good Omens as an example (not a comic, i know). gaiman and pratchett met for an interview, and hit it off - then pratchett offered to buy gaimans idea for the book to write himself, and they ended up collaborating on it due to mutual passion for the project and good personal chemistry.

as a writerartist myself, i also feel that if an artist or a writer wants to get started in comics, they should just go ahead and learn to draw / write enough to make a serviceable comic. imo, if you wanna work in comics, you need to have both an understanding and appreciation for visual language, a good eye for design, and an understanding of narrative - and it dont need to be that hard.

i dont mean that writers whove never picked up a paintbrush need to buy a cintiq and study anatomy for a month - really simple, even 'ugly' art can be not only serviceable but even compelling. it can be collage, it can be glorified stick figures8, it can be 100% in biro pen7. just do it - if the writing itself is good, you can use it to convince more experienced artists to take you up on future projects. or hey, you might just get the drawing bug, and from your raw perspective make something even more genuine and original than a self-proclaimed artist could.

similarly, artists dont need to study hemingway or whatever bollocks to write decent comics - God knows most of these ppl asking for your unpaid labour havent. if you like comics, you like stories, so you can study those stories and figure out what they do. every movie you have ever loved has 50 videos on youtube explaining why you love it. anyone can tell stories, telling good ones can be learned through studying structure, the stories you love, and real life. cant come up with ideas? random idea generators, fanfiction, AUs, one of those weird fantasies you have in your head, it is good enough, trust me. get it down on paper. do it! you can!

neither writing nor art is some kind of inherent lofty skill that you either have or dont, its all learnt, and if youre working in comics and you dont have an understanding of narrative or of the fundamentals of art and design, youre at an unnecessary disadvantage. stop fishing for someone to do it for you, get your hands dirty and learn.

nervously wonders if his request for collaboration during the creator contest was bad

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For me, this is really the crux of the deal. Many of the posts I see circulating asking for artists I think hinge on this way of thinking. It's this vibe "I want to own an IP/be a Creator of something" than it is someone who is good at writing or who actually even likes writing. I've dealt with a lot of people who have big-picture dreams of being the creator of some franchise or their story being made into a movie some day and artists please line up as stepping stones to get them there because They're Worth It. hahaha!

Beyond even the consideration of how much work making a comic is, I think a lot of the people who post up ads or discuss that 50/50 writer-artist split don't realize just how hard it is to even make any money doing this anyway. It really has to be about wanting to do it for the sake of itself first and foremost, and someone who hasn't done any writing already or has nothing to show for themselves on their own, doesn't have the drive to do it with a partner, either, IMHO.

I currently work on an unpaid collab with the amazing @Croik on our tapas comic! I feel incredibly lucky to get to work with such an awesome writer who does so much. I've tried to work on tons of projects with friends before and all of them have fallen through. It's really easy to talk a big game until reality and hard work sets in. I've been in projects where I've tried to hold everything together and do as much as possible and keep people accountable and it all crashed and burned the moment I wasn't spinning plates alone. Just like in any partnership, motivations and personalities matter a lot!! These things only work when both people can really carry their weight.

Croik and I, separately, work on and complete all sorts of things. When we work together it's two people doing a lot of hard work and that's the only reason things actually happen. We both admired one another's works before we became friends, and well after I suggested working on a one-shot comic, which turned into the free series we've been doing. It only worked out because we started slow, and also because we care about one another and create in ways that accommodate each other and include content we both enjoy.

I don't think I would ever sign on to work with someone for free that I didn't know personally. It feels worse than responding to a personals ad. I think people might have a better chance if they advertise for wanting a creative friend or list their general interests instead of "please come draw my magnum opus so i can be rich and famous (and you get some)". Or at least show a page of scripts or a small idea and ask if anyone has interest. If someone already has their ideas and characters finalized, and they don't actually want to collaborate or create WITH the artist, please just pay someone to make it. I think these are really two completely separate animals...

A legitimate collaboration has to be built on trust and respect, and not an attempt to get as much as you can out of the other person before they burn out.

I know this feeling. I'm sadly not a very social person most of the time I don't know many people... I do have a small library of work to point to as evidence I can get things done but I lack the sort of professional relationships that come so easily to others. As a writer the spotlight in all on me. I always have to prove I'm not the same as the rando johnny who don't understand or appreciate the hard work they have to do to make something worth reading.

Artists can simply draw something to show what they're capable of - most people with functional eyes can recognize quality artwork.... Writers cant do that so easily. You can throw together a writing sample I've done countless. Nobody reads them. Most of the time it feels pointless and its far FAR easier to fake being a good writer in short form than it is in long. Even those with the patience to read your sample few will read it if its terribly long.

Hell it feels like I MUST have artwork or something beyond just my words.... or nobody is going to care.

That's exactly it, people just have no reference of how much effort goes into it. I know I certainly didn't! The screwed up thing is, I have a 12-year-old sister who draws in her anime style and it can take like 2-4 hours draw a full color piece she's satisfied with. So, while I have that reference in mind, I still just took the artist's labor for granted. I just expected people to wanna help me on a webcomic back then, not thinking anything of how much work goes into a comic for some reason.

That's essentially what I was trying to do back then without realizing it. There's no immediate frame of reference for how much goes in to those 100 chapters for the general public, and I don't think that first-time writers (which is like the usual people asking for unpaid 100 chapter ventures) feel like they need one on hand. I know I personally underestimated the process, man. I thought it'd be as simple as finding someone who was just as invested.in my idea and continue working on it with me on a long-term project. Not so. Even just doing it for fun, that's a crazy amount of dedication to put on someone to keep drawing for you.

Honestly, there's a slew of first time writers who assume that their story is going to be flawless, and like they deserve someone who wants to be as invested and help them. They see art as another basic creative skill like writing. They don't consider how much goes into the artist getting to the level they're at, and consider it easy. The type that thinks "I wanna see this and this and this happening over this and that" is easy to draw in like 10 minutes.

It just boils down to either these writers just wanting to own an IP, or just asking people if they want to be an art slave without them realizing it. The latter is exactly what I did, and I'm not too proud of that. I get where they're coming from, but I do think the majority of them having unfinished projects or having no previous work really stops them from getting the help they want. Couple that with wanting to keep the original idea from being stolen. "Can't show it to people, they might steal everything I worked for-" Yeah, no, everyone's basically busy with their own. Get over yourself lol

All in all, it makes me sad, to be honest. Not only to see artists treated that way, but to see potential writers give up on their ideas when they find out how difficult the process can be and part of that can be other artists hounding them down for not respecting the potential partner's work. Some of these guys just don't know that that's what they're doing, and had they known, they might've gone about it differently. I try my best to point stuff like that out in a polite way, and to see some of them (away from my personal experiences) stay stubborn about their awful offer sucks.

With all that said lol I made an unpaid offer for a one-shot (which could've been a potential series) and made it a point that the story could be changed on the behalf of the artist. Found someone interested (shoutout to the lovely Kaetana2!), we talked it over, she asked for a more detailed script, and I sent it. She said I should turn it into a novel because she saw some skill in my writing. And she wanted to still be a part of it while she was working on her own comic! So, we worked out a better deal and now she's in it for the long run. The overall dynamic and nature of the project itself changed, but I think it happened for the better.

If these people were open to keeping their ideas small, and changing the overall nature of it, I'm positive they'll be a in way better position to ask for that kind of help.

Definitely this. Especially if someone comes to Tapas looking for a partner, with the intent to post ON Tapas. Unless you're specifically intending to pitch for Premium or Incubator, it IS dishonest to suggest that a first time collaboration on "community" Tapas is going to make a good profit, at least within the first few years. Everyone will tell you that ad revenue here is basically nothing and tips require a lot of extra incentive for anything equal to an artist's actual per-page rate. Better to go in with the expectation that you're here to have fun, get experience, and engage with the community.

I for one would never ever draw for a stranger without any sort of payment involved. Working for strangers for free sounds like horrible trouble: you are potentially spending time, energy, resources, with someone you do not know how they work, how trustworthy they are, with half-assed generic pitches or no pitch at all.. They don't feel like a team because they have nothing to start with. also, I have never seen a collab like that that has taken off, let alone started... seems like empty search. simply put, I have never seen them work at all. A 50-50 split also is not fair. Story is important yes, but drawing takes an extremely long amount of time. I have been asked to participate in collabs with not even a pitch, people trying to get free art from me, and I wonder: if I barely have time for my own comic, what makes you think I want to work on yours with no pay? It might sound awful, but I do both write and draw, and I have a day job to keep, and my own aspirations to work on. If I collab for free and for fun, it will only be with people I wholeheartedly trust. People posting these unpaid ads need you much more than you need them.